Vaccination of Children. (Full Version)

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estah -> Vaccination of Children. (11/7/2009 9:09:04 PM)

Greetings,

I am curious as to the opinions of people here on the vaccinations of children and the reasons why/why not.

I have two children, the oldest is fully vaccinated and the youngest is getting caught up now. I am also fully vaccinated.

veriy




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/7/2009 9:30:58 PM)

Because of congenital health issues discovered when we had my oldest vaccinated on schedule (he had severe neurological reactions to the DPT vaccine, including seizures, high-pitched incessant screaming, and dysphasia), his siblings were not vaccinated until they were ready for grade school. While my oldest had life-long neurological issues (including dysphasia, dyslexia, and intermittent seizures until he was 12, which -did- eventually go away), the younger two had no ill effects from their immunization. All three children were 100% breastfed, but I also have problems with vaccines, and am allergic to many of them and nearly died from the test dose for smallpox (I was in the last year that the vaccination was given in the US).

My recommendation to people who ask... Unless one has philosophical, medical, or religious reasons for not vaccinating, I would consider holding off on vaccinating until the children are over 2 years old, and preferentially until they are nearing school age. While this will mean some 'catching up', the child's own immune system is active and typically healthy at this age, and most of the rapid growth of neurological tissue (both central and peripheral) has slowed down a good bit.

If I didn't -have- to vaccinate my kids, I wouldn't have, knowing our family's allergy and vaccination history, but it is difficult to deal with the complications of choosing not to vaccinate in the United States, and for most families without a clear medical or philosophical reason, isn't sustainable due to the complications with childcare, schooling, etc.

One thing that it is important to know is that, in choosing not to vaccinate, one heavily limits the number of day-care centers, childcare facilities, and schools that will accept one's child in attendance (which is a real issue when all the adults are working and childcare is needed for the kids!)-- almost every private school requires full immunization without dispensation, and the public schools accept dispensations, but make life miserable if one chooses to use it unless for a clear medical reason -- anything else subjects the family to the scrutiny of CPS, the school nurse, the school counselor and anyone else who wants to nose around in one's business, in the interests of compelling participation in "the process". For most families, it is a real issue, and has to be considered among the many battles that will be fought when other lifestyle alternatives are in the mix.

For us, I explained to the various authorities, doctors, case workers, etc., that I wasn't denying my kids vaccination, but after what their brother had gone through, we'd decided to wait until their immune and neurological systems were better developed. I gave them the plan we'd worked out with their pediatric specialist, and reassured them that I wasn't bucking the system -- just striving for an improved outcome. Because I had one child who had had a verified adverse reaction, they pretty much left us alone until the kids hit kindergarten age, and then started the pressure to immunize. By that time, my ex had custody (by mutual agreement), and he just wasn't a fighter... so he caved right away and took the kids and started getting them their shots, which they tolerated extremely well, with the exception of the MMR, which actually evoked rubella in my youngest -- but he recovered without incident.

DC





Rule -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/7/2009 10:15:57 PM)

I have various opinions.

First of all it is my opinion that all children ought to be breastfed as long as possible (four years). There are lots of protective antibodies in breast milk.

Secondly - and I know this is incredibly harsh - from the point of view of the gene pool it is best if individuals that are susceptible to killer or maiming diseases are removed from the gene pool. On the other hand there are plenty of such diseases that I would like to see exterminated, like small pox, malaria, herpes, polio and hepatitis.

Thirdly, it is suspicious that lots of auto-immune diseases appear to have increased in frequency (they were always present, but rare, before) since vaccination was invented.
It is my intuition that it is better to give vaccination in repeated small doses rather than one large dose at once. (It is especially the squalene in vaccins that I and others suspect of causing autoimmune diseases, so the smaller the amount at any given time, the better; I cannot prove that, but there it is.)




DomKen -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/7/2009 10:37:12 PM)

In short vaccines are the single most medical intervention presently in existence. Children with those supposedly healthy and active immune systems used to die by the thousands every year to mumps, measles, polio, diptheria rubella and the other diseases we now vaccinate against that most of us will never see a single case of.

If you have an allergy to a vaccine component or some other real health issue that prevents you from getting them fine but otherwise get vaccinated. You protect yourself as well as those who can't get vaccinated for some reason.




Termyn8or -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/7/2009 11:24:13 PM)

Unfortunately unless you intend to live on the side of a mountain, home school and grow and raise your own food this is too much problems to deal with.

My beat advice is that if you can, get the injections scheduled as far apart as possible, so the kid can recover. Not from the pinprick, but from what they injected. It is a catch 22, they must be vaccinated in case they come across someone who they might spread a disease to.

Keeping them out of school is not the answer because then what do you do ? Keep them out of society altogether ? Doesn't seem quite right really.

But the reason to try to stagger the immunizations is to allow their bodt to excrete the mercury in the thimrosal, which is a peservative in most of these vaccines. This agrument has been done before, and it was asserted that they took most of it out, but that has been found to be untrue, and also a whole new group of researchers have debunked the debunking, and have reestablished the thimerosal - autism link.

But with other research, that case seems to rest on individual body chemistry. If they can't excrete it properly, they are screwed antway, but if they can, how much of this toxin can their body actually get rid of ?

So in this light I see the best course of action to let the vaccinations happen, but stagger them, give their body a little bit of time. Rmember, the smart appreciate those who are not, and I am deathly serious about my suspicions of the entire medical industry.

And that is for VERY good reasons.

You can't shield the kid from this unless to want to move to Ruby Ridge. You know what ahppened last time. You can't. I could, but I am so out of the norm it is not funny. So the best course of action is to minimize the impact, if any. The problem is that you won't know of the impact for years. Therefore erring on the side of safety, don't let them tell you anything. Get a list of the shots, tell them what the schedule will be and remember, YOU are the customer. They are not your boss nor in any position to tell you whaty your kids need, nor anyone else.

I don't care how submissive you are, you have a responsibility to be dominant about certain things, and if this ain't one of them I don't know what is.

T




XaviersXian -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/7/2009 11:41:29 PM)

greetings to all,

All of our current children are fully vaccinated or up to date with their vaccines (the youngest one is currently short her 18 month jab, but she's got a few months to go until that one rolls around).  When I give birth again (I'm due in January) he will also be fully vaccinated (beginning with a hep B vaccine given to him in the hospital). 

I suffered deadly infections as a baby that (according to doctors) I was supposed to die from.  Those infections are now (thanks to modern medicine) fully preventable through vaccination, and I don't wish my children to ever have a brush with infections like the ones I suffered, or be afflicted with the same thing.

Having studied health related subjects at university (and experienced a higher than average immune system my entire life) I understand the reasoning behind not vaccinating children, but to me, the consequences of not vaccinating are just not worth it.

well wishes,




estah -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/8/2009 12:02:36 AM)

Greetings

Thank you very much for your imput. I am very much for vaccinations. My youngest had a bad experience with a doctor on one jab and his normal doctor (A children's doctor) said we should wait half a year before starting again to give him a chance to work through the trauma of that experience, he is due for the next injection in the next two weeks or so.

verity




housesub4you -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/8/2009 3:00:59 AM)

You can have the Dr or nurse use a topical to lessen the pain of the shot, it is the same sort of thing a Dentist uses now when they rub it on your gum's before giving you the shot.

All my children are up to date and every time we asked the Dr to give them a topical and none have cried when given the shot






estah -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/8/2009 3:12:26 AM)

The problem has nothing to do with the pain of the shot but how it was administrated. The child became uneasy and while I was trying to calm the child the doctor called her assistants (two of them), she pushed me out of the way and had them hold the child down (he was 2 years old). I told her to stop and tried to get to my son who was by now in full panic. You gave him the vaccination. I never went back to this doctor and reported her for abuse of the child by the police and also for poor practice/malpractice by the nessecary boards.

verity




Aylee -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/8/2009 5:10:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

The problem has nothing to do with the pain of the shot but how it was administrated. The child became uneasy and while I was trying to calm the child the doctor called her assistants (two of them), she pushed me out of the way and had them hold the child down (he was 2 years old). I told her to stop and tried to get to my son who was by now in full panic. You gave him the vaccination. I never went back to this doctor and reported her for abuse of the child by the police and also for poor practice/malpractice by the nessecary boards.

verity



Well, they do need to have the child held down for the shots.  Mine typically got at least one in each leg, sometimes two in one and one in the other.  Although, I was the one holding her upper body down.  The time that it was only one shot, I held her on my hip and turned so that her leg was presented to the nurse for the needle. 

She did not care for mommy getting a shot either and tried to push the nurse away with the needle away from  me. 

A couple of things that you can do. . .

1.  Give them tylonal BEFORE the appointment.  Most of the time the vaccine will cause a fever.  This means that it is working.  It is easier to head the fever off than wait until they are cranky and may not want to take the tylonal. 

2.  Tell them that you want to hold them down yourself.  It is not fun and they are going to scream.  It is startling and scarey.  Talk to them, comfort them, if they have a lovey let them hold it.

3.  Depending on age, give them a bottle, tit, or treat right after.  For mine, nothing clears up the boo-hoos faster than a Hershey Kiss.  Now. . . she only gets that for boo-hooing if it is something outside of her control.  If it because she got herself in trouble, there is no treat after. 

4.  Do not become upset yourself.  Talk in a calm matter-for-fact voice.  If they have a lovey, perhaps you can have them give the shot to the lovey first.  If you can get your flu shot at the same time, have them give it to you first and DO NOT FLINCH.  Show them that it is okay.

5.  Do not lie.  Do not tell them that it won't hurt.  Tell them that it will not hurt for long.  Make sure that you do all the things that you are supposed to, like massaging the area. 

6.  If it is available in your area, let them watch one of the toddler shows about going to the doctor.  The Bernstien Bears and Dragontales both have pretty good ones.  Remember that they will likely want to watch it more than once. 

That is my advise.  That, and be happy it is just shots and not a blood draw!  [:)]




estah -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/8/2009 6:00:37 AM)

Greetings Aylee,

Neither of my children had to be held down before to get their shots and have never needed anything to ease the pain or calm them down. It was the one and only needle that doctor gave my son. He is now back at the original doctor and had an injection he laid still while the doctor gave him the needle this time. It is enough that mama is near by and so it was for every other injection he ever had. Three strange people holding a child down is sometimes nessecary, but you do not give an injection after the mother tells you to stop. A first year medicine student knows this. But I did not start this thread to be able my experiences with injections it was more for an open discussion on vaccinations, for or against.

I am for them. For the obvious reasons, that even when they do not prevent an illness they do limit the impact it has on a child.

verity




Aylee -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/8/2009 6:20:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

But I did not start this thread to be able my experiences with injections it was more for an open discussion on vaccinations, for or against.

I am for them. For the obvious reasons, that even when they do not prevent an illness they do limit the impact it has on a child.

verity



Sorry about the hi-jack then.

I am for vaccinations.  Unless there is a known allergy.  For instance I would not give the small pox vaccine to someone allergic to eggs or the meningitis vaccine to someone allergic to latex (like myself). 

Just looking at the death rates of children pre-vaccinations and post-vaccinations should make it clear to anyone that it is better to vaccinate than not. 

Granted, nothing is a 100%.  That is just a part of life. 

In addition you do others a service by vaccination.  There are those that can NOT have them.  However, they receive the benefits because of herd immunity. 




BrokenSaint -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/8/2009 6:33:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Secondly - and I know this is incredibly harsh - from the point of view of the gene pool it is best if individuals that are susceptible to killer or maiming diseases are removed from the gene pool. On the other hand there are plenty of such diseases that I would like to see exterminated, like small pox, malaria, herpes, polio and hepatitis.


See, and here I thought I was just about the only one that thought that. I always feel like an asshole when I explain it to people.

But yeah, the serious stuff? Get vaccinated. Good times. If there's a vaccine for something that can cause awful horrible ridiculously bad effects, you load em up with that. Things like measles, etc. But in the case of something like the flu, honestly I've always rathered getting the flu.

Squalene vaccines are relatively safe btw

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/

There is always a risk with vaccinations though, albeit the risk of serious adverse effects are quite slight. Guillain-Barre syndrome is the most frequently mentioned risk of vaccinations, but very very rare. About 1 or 2 in 100,000 people getting it rare, and from say the flu vaccine we're talking 1 or 2 in a million or so.




kittinSol -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/8/2009 7:16:03 AM)

Vaccinate. It's dangerous not to, and the anti-vaccination propaganda is grotesquely misleading.

Here's an excellent article from Wired magazine: An epidemic of fear: how panicked parents skipping shots endangers us all.




pahunkboy -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/8/2009 7:28:04 AM)

Well then.

How many shots is this?

3.  6?   14?  20?

There has been a creep up in shots.  And that is uncalled for.

The shots my age got compared with today it must be triple today.

I am thinking we do NOT need endless vaccines.   No.  NO NO NO.




pahunkboy -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/8/2009 7:37:06 AM)

Estah,  May I ask how many shots are required, and what they are?

My sister has 2 kids and she accepts some but refuses some of the shots.   She and her DR discuss it and they take it from there.




Aylee -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/8/2009 7:52:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Well then.

How many shots is this?

3.  6?   14?  20?

There has been a creep up in shots.  And that is uncalled for.

The shots my age got compared with today it must be triple today.

I am thinking we do NOT need endless vaccines.   No.  NO NO NO.



DUH! 

There are more vaccines available now. 

For instance, there was NO chicken pox vaccine available when I was a child.  There is now. 

They are called medical and scientific advancements. 




pahunkboy -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/8/2009 8:00:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Well then.

How many shots is this?

3.  6?   14?  20?

There has been a creep up in shots.  And that is uncalled for.

The shots my age got compared with today it must be triple today.

I am thinking we do NOT need endless vaccines.   No.  NO NO NO.



DUH! 

There are more vaccines available now. 

For instance, there was NO chicken pox vaccine available when I was a child.  There is now. 

They are called medical and scientific advancements. 


Or hopped up marketing promotions.   Ask your DR if I feel good pills is right for you.

Do you really think a saturation of vaccines makes one healthier?   If the body can only take x amount then why use it all up?

Or put it this way we got thru fine, so why is it necessary to shoot up the UMs?   We grew up just fine.




DomKen -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/8/2009 8:04:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Or put it this way we got thru fine, so why is it necessary to shoot up the UMs?   We grew up just fine.

Because just because you survived some illness doesn't mean every child will.




pahunkboy -> RE: Vaccination of Children. (11/8/2009 8:07:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Or put it this way we got thru fine, so why is it necessary to shoot up the UMs?   We grew up just fine.

Because just because you survived some illness doesn't mean every child will.



I think what I would do is review the list of what they say is needed then one by one make a decision.   People do have varied risks.   True.




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