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RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/8/2009 5:55:29 PM

rockspider

Posts: 633
Joined: 9/26/2009
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Lets face it. If Obama was the CEO of a private company called USA INC then he would be playing canasta with Bernie Maddof and his 5 - 6 predecessors. Make it an international prison and stick every single politician in South America, 9 out of 10 of the africans, 3/4 of the europeans and probably 3/4 of the asians in it. They way the global economy has been handled the past 25 years can only be described as fraudulently, proudly led by greedy financial institutions, hell bent on short term profit and fuck the consequences. Watched over by many times corrupt politicians. The ones not being corrupt can best be described as incompetent and naive. How we are going to handle the mess is anybodys guess. I can only hope Obama got ice in his gut, balls of steel and a steady hand on the tiller as he sailing in uncharted water, with lots nasty currents and reefs who is hidden. Well if he is bringin the plimsoller in to harbour, he shall have my undying admiration.

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 61

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/8/2009 6:10:55 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

LOL mike!

As far as a recovery, Raiikun? I would love to see just one article/historian/financial expert, political expert, ect. saying that. Just one.

OK....here ya go!

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 62

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/8/2009 6:16:43 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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Umm.. sorry Master Tim... i meant in regards to Raiikun's statement ...

quote:

Without the bailouts, we'd have a different set of problems -

Businesses that make poor business decisions would be failing instead of being propped up.

I think we would very possibly be on the road to recovery by now instead of things still continually getting worse with no end in sight.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 63

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/8/2009 6:21:27 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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Oh, OK, I misunderstood.

Many economists are saying the opposite, that to get jobs moving, we will need additional government stimulus. Now THAT'S gonna be interesting to try to accomplish, politically or popularly!

But the root problem is that we've ignored structural problems for years while continuing to borrow. It catches up, even in an economy in the trillions.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 64

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/8/2009 10:38:32 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

There are pros on that list that baffle me. (I still think a President being able to fire a CEO is just plain wrong for one).

How do you feel about government bailing out a bankrupt company?

I think that was equally bad of a mistake.

And Tazzy's response frankly scares the shit outta me.

(Amusingly, the car company that's recovering the best by far, is the one that didn't take any money from the government and let it get it's claws into it.)

Because it was the company on the most firm footing to begin with.

Do you really believe the government wanted to "get its claws" in these companies, or was it forced into doing so because the collapse of these companies, due to their own mismanagement, would have had a devastating effect on the economy.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 11/8/2009 10:39:11 PM >

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 65

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 1:36:15 AM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
.
You do realise the American economy was on the point of collapes right ? The major banks had no money to carry on the working week. Do you realise what would have happened if they all failed, or even if any of the major banks failed ?

You do realize that that was bullshit served to you so you would accept the biggest power grab in us history, right?

Dont you ever read up on a topic, it would seem not as most of your posts are just silly comments like the one above. Read some of the evidnce presented by bank CEO`s themselves, several major US banks had run out of cash and could not have survived another day, as they had run out of money for daily overheads.

The evidence is out there, so instead of making schoolboy comments about me being fed bullshit, take a leaf from my book and do some research.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 66

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 5:52:31 AM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Do you really believe the government wanted to "get its claws" in these companies

Yep. There were banks who wanted to give the TARP money back to get the Federal government out of their hair, but weren't allowed to give it back, as the Fed wanted to keep it's power to regulate them.

quote:

CNN, March 27, 2009

Goldman Sachs (GS, Fortune 500), Bank of New York/Mellon (BK, Fortune 500), Wells Fargo (WFC, Fortune 500), JP Morgan Chase (JPM, Fortune 500) and Bank of America (BAC, Fortune 500) - all 'mega-banks' that the government forced to take bailout money - say they want to return taxpayer funds "as soon as practical."

But, they're well aware no one will be permitted to return funds before completion of regulatory "stress-tests" of the major banks to determine how they would withstand a severe recession.

"We want to return the TARP money as soon as possible. We feel more bullish about economic prospects broadly, but we recognize we can't repay the money without the approval of the regulators," said Goldman Sachs spokesman Lucas Van Praag.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 67

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 5:55:36 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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That's pretty circular.

Obviously, since bank behavior got us here, regulators expect banks to demonstrate their financial stability before allowing them to turn away capital.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/9/2009 5:56:10 AM >

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 68

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 6:01:38 AM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
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http://mises.org/story/3770 Another good read.

Particularly since Tazzy asked for an opinion from an Economics expert that we would have been better off without the bailout...

"As for the banks, it may be that some of them would have failed without the money, but that is not a bad thing. When firms take risks, they must balance the potential profits from success against the potential losses from failure, and the TARP support removes the last part of that balancing act. There may have been some dislocations in the short run from bank failures, but in the long run allowing them to go under preserves the incentive structure that fuels a market economy."

"Ultimately, what TARP did was provide funds for the government to take an ownership interest in private firms. Nationalizing our financial and industrial firms is not in the public interest. The federal government now owns 80 percent of AIG and 61 percent of GM. TARP was not necessary. It didn't work. And what it actually did was undesirable."

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 11/9/2009 6:05:15 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 69

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 6:06:37 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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Interesting article. Telling that it never once mentioned Lehman.

When you post quotes, posting the link is often helpful. For example, your last post included a link. Turning to the "About" page lends the reader a wealth of information. Yours revealed this...

You have found the world center of the Austrian School of economics and libertarian political and social theory.

So, what we have here is an econimics professor from a school that teaches libertarian politics and social theory.

No bias there what so ever.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/9/2009 6:12:21 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 70

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 6:10:07 AM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
Status: offline

Why is it telling?

Edit: In response to Tazzy's edit; so instead of responding to the points made, you're going to just resort to an Ad Hominem to dismiss the argument?

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 11/9/2009 6:21:19 AM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 71

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 6:37:30 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

"As for the banks, it may be that some of them would have failed without the money, but that is not a bad thing. When firms take risks, they must balance the potential profits from success against the potential losses from failure, and the TARP support removes the last part of that balancing act. There may have been some dislocations in the short run from bank failures, but in the long run allowing them to go under preserves the incentive structure that fuels a market economy."

Yeah, it kind of is.

You do understand that the FDIC has a limited amount of funds and they are already under stress from the amount of bank failures so far.

Without TARP there would have been far more.

Which would have left two options.

Tax dollars going to shore up the FDIC or people losing the savings they had in those banks.

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 72

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 6:38:46 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Not at all. When you discover the leanings of anyone, it serves to display the thought process behind the person presenting the information.

Case in point... if you have a Dr who writes a sympathetic paper on cancer patients, addressing the long suffering and painful aspects, and leaving out bits and pieces of how cancer can be beaten by other forms of medicine/treatments currently in use, then you discover he/she has partial interest in a new cancer drug, you have to wonder about the motives.

Its no secret how libertarians view government intervention...

quote:

The Libertarian Party on Today's Issues
"Libertarians believe the answer to America's political problems is the same commitment to freedom that earned America its greatness: a free-market economy and the abundance and prosperity it brings; a dedication to civil liberties and personal freedom that marks this country above all others; and a foreign policy of non-intervention, peace, and free trade as prescribed by America's founders."

http://www.lp.org/issues

... and they are certainly entitled to that belief. I could almost agree with the author, except for the fact that many of these companies came calling upon congress to bail them out. Conditions were set, whatever they were, leaving the companies to follow their own beliefs... accept or decline.

The issue with GM is a bit different than the other car companies. GM's CEO had been there for most of his career. Chryslers had been brought in during the middle of that mess. Hard to blame the new kid for the problems he inherited, which is why he was not asked to leave as well.

As far as the professor, im sure he is very good at his job. His political affiliation, at least publically, with a libertarian based school, shows me that his leanings are more towards the "government hands off" model... again.. his right to believe so. And it shows, glowingly, in the article you cited.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 73

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 6:40:43 AM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
Status: offline

We don't know that would have been the case though.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 74

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 6:50:38 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Nor do we know that doing nothing would have spurred us into a booming economic growth. Hind sight on this does nothing.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 75

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 6:57:13 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

We don't know that would have been the case though.

We know exactly that would have been the case by the number of bank failures so far.

FDIC May Need $150 Billion Bailout as More Banks Fail

By the end of 2009, about 100 U.S. banks with collective assets of more than $800 billion will fail, predicts Christopher Whalen, managing director of Institutional Risk Analytics, a Torrance, California-based firm that sells its analysis of FDIC data to investors.

And his prediction from more than a year ago was completely accurate and actually an underestimate, 119 bank failures this year, as of November 6th.

FDIC: Failed Bank List

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 76

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 9:07:09 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
.
You do realise the American economy was on the point of collapes right ? The major banks had no money to carry on the working week. Do you realise what would have happened if they all failed, or even if any of the major banks failed ?

You do realize that that was bullshit served to you so you would accept the biggest power grab in us history, right?

Dont you ever read up on a topic, it would seem not as most of your posts are just silly comments like the one above. Read some of the evidnce presented by bank CEO`s themselves, several major US banks had run out of cash and could not have survived another day, as they had run out of money for daily overheads.

The evidence is out there, so instead of making schoolboy comments about me being fed bullshit, take a leaf from my book and do some research.

I talk and work with the largest investment managers in the world weekly, and they in turn talk to "the bank CEO's themselves" daily. It didnt take the stimulus bill or printing money for the survival of the major banks.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 77

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 1:31:32 PM

Brain

Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline

I am always interested in what you have to say because you are objective. Unfortunately, that's frequently interpreted as being a lefty by the right, far too often in my opinion.

My objective examination of the situation is they had better not let Joe Lieberman get away with ruining the health care legislation because if Lieberman succeeds Obama and the Democratic Party had better bust his balls!
No more earmarks and no more running any committees, Lieberman had better become a total leper

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

~FR~

I'd say this is a pretty accurate assessment. I have long thought that Obama has had some very good moments and some great disappointments. I think it would be as much a mistake to concentrate only on the former and forget the latter as it would be to do the reverse.

The problem is that there seems to be little objective examination of Obam's administration. This is a fine example of what such an examination can tell us.

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)

Post #: 78

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 2:46:29 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I talk and work with the largest investment managers in the world weekly, and they in turn talk to "the bank CEO's themselves" daily. It didnt take the stimulus bill or printing money for the survival of the major banks.

Keep saying it wasnt needed doesnt make it right. Bush and Paulson both said it was needed.

"The following weekend, once again in talks conducted behind the backs of the American people, Paulson handed congressional leaders a four-page blueprint for a $700 billion bailout of the banking system and demanded that they immediately enact it into law. On the evening of September 24, Bush went on national television and, in apocalyptic terms, insisted that if Congress did not quickly pass Paulson’s plan “America would slip into a financial panic.”

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/oct2009/pers-o03.shtml

I have asked this on other threads and not had a reply. Would anyone against the bailout still have the same view, if it meant them losing everything ?

Edited to trim quotes

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 11/9/2009 2:48:45 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 79

RE: President Obama - The best and worst of the year - 11/9/2009 5:27:00 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I talk and work with the largest investment managers in the world weekly, and they in turn talk to "the bank CEO's themselves" daily. It didnt take the stimulus bill or printing money for the survival of the major banks.

Keep saying it wasnt needed doesnt make it right. Bush and Paulson both said it was needed.

"The following weekend, once again in talks conducted behind the backs of the American people, Paulson handed congressional leaders a four-page blueprint for a $700 billion bailout of the banking system and demanded that they immediately enact it into law. On the evening of September 24, Bush went on national television and, in apocalyptic terms, insisted that if Congress did not quickly pass Paulson’s plan “America would slip into a financial panic.”

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/oct2009/pers-o03.shtml

I have asked this on other threads and not had a reply. Would anyone against the bailout still have the same view, if it meant them losing everything ?

Edited to trim quotes

quote:

(in reply to SpinnerofTales

Its a nonsensical question. There is no way the bailout could have cost me everything. What the bailout and subsequent actions may very well do however, that would not be in play with no bailout, is that the US may very well turn out to be a place that my children will have far less chance at success than Ive had.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 80

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