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RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 1:29:00 PM   
MasterJack53


Posts: 89
Joined: 1/24/2006
Status: offline 		ok, Im not a Biblical scholar, priest,minister,preacher or divinity student but I think I can explain the confusion here. first you interpet the Bible verse Genisis 2 to say that God created a man on the 8th day because it says:

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. "

I think if you ask someone that is one of those things Im not what this is saying is like a review of what God did in the 7 days. If you take the interpretation you are using,. there would also be two garden of Edens. see

as for youre quote:

"Translations are using the word adam and 'ethHa'adam, which indicates that they are inherently different, but still both man."

if you go to HTTP://www.solhaam.org/articles/genheb.html you will see they are indeed the same person. Please go to it and read it.

as for the weather report :), its warm here during the day but chilly at night. Im in Madison, Tn just outside Nashville. Im glad we have settled down to an intelligent conversation without the intrusion of the ones doing the personal attacking. I really have done the things I said in the Military and the history I provided is true and verifiable. and the history I provided to the one Englander is historical and he's saying Im making it up. I dont like being attacked and yes I do get defensive but thats my insecurity. I want to be liked by people and I get "hurt" when people treat me like him and his female friend did and they have no basis for it, just slinging hurtful words, I get upset.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 221
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 1:37:46 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		This is Darcy

I've just read through this thread and it's made me smile, grimace, curse, laugh out loud at the fuckwittery of some of the posters, and most of all made me proud of the.dark's remarkable patience and restraint in not making some of the comments that I've made in the last fifteen minutes or so.

At the end of the day, let's face it, none of us knows for sure how we got here. You might think you do, but can you prove it? Either way? I don't believe in god, or God or GOD or whatever floats your boat, or ark or inflateable tabernacle, but equally I have a hard time in believing that there have been so many coincidences and mutations to transmute us from a single celled amoeba into the complex biological machine that is currently sitting typing this. Obviously SOMETHING happened, because I'm here, typing this (or am I, perhaps not, perhaps Keanu was right after all) but I'm jiggered if I know how I got here (other than the 7pm from Liverpool Street, but that's another story for another day).

To quote (kind of) Tim Miinchin, if any of you can prove empirically, undeniably, categorically, under strict laboratory conditions, the existence of this god that you speak of then I'll give you my piano (I had originally offered something else, but I have bowed to the good taste of the wonderful dark )


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RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 1:38:51 PM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJack53

as for the weather report :), its warm here during the day but chilly at night. Im in Madison, Tn just outside Nashville. Im glad we have settled down to an intelligent conversation without the intrusion of the ones doing the personal attacking. I really have done the things I said in the Military and the history I provided is true and verifiable. and the history I provided to the one Englander is historical and he's saying Im making it up. I dont like being attacked and yes I do get defensive but thats my insecurity. I want to be liked by people and I get "hurt" when people treat me like him and his female friend did and they have no basis for it, just slinging hurtful words, I get upset.

Awwwwwwwwww ... diddums.

*You* started this, you clueless clown. All I and a few others did was, rightly, call bullshit on your mickey-mouse claims and your 50cc "brain". *You* were the one who started slinging insults around first, as you'd realise if you were able to scan back and read without your finger dragging across the screen.

Not to mention the OP itself, which was a modern classic, in the style of "hello, good evening, and you're a twat". If you don't want to come across as a total retard then merely stop posting moronic statements, the like of which a 5 year-old would be ashamed of and, worse, then trying to garner sympathy as the hurt party.

Your idiocy is not my fault. You did this to you, not me, nor anyone else. You think I enjoy watching you make an utter doughnut of yourself? You think it's fun to observe your pathetic attempts to string a couple of sentences together?

Actually yes, it is. That was a bad example. Sorry.


(in reply to MasterJack53)
Profile   Post #: 223
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 1:40:16 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		hmmmmmmmmmm, you don't appear to be in the jesus camp at all, Rape.


LOL

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RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 1:43:26 PM   
MasterJack53


Posts: 89
Joined: 1/24/2006
Status: offline 		so may I ask, when you say "smile, grimace, curse, laugh out loud at the fuckwittery of some of the posters, and most of all made me proud of the.dark's remarkable patience and restraint in not making some of the comments that I've made in the last fifteen minutes or so. it thereelow the belt when I had been h" what do you mean? who are you aiming that at? Do you feel everyone has made mistakes or do you also feel that Im the one not presenting an intelligent argument? I know I sank to using vulgarity at times but that was human anger at,as I said, things I found hurtful and false. And I think that I only did go below the belt after I felt I had been hit in the nuts first. Oh boy! I feel new attacks comming now.

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Profile   Post #: 225
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 1:46:32 PM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

hmmmmmmmmmm, you don't appear to be in the jesus camp at all, Rape.

I'm a couple of miles down the road, in the Hotel Think-For-Yourself-And-Don't-Leave-It-To-Your-Imaginary-Friends ... the view's not quite as nice, but the minbar's streets ahead

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 226
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 1:50:05 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		yeah, I am cursed with an intellectual starch blocker myself, although I have prayed in moments of weekness as a teenager hugging the porcelain and projectile vomiting technicolor yawns of sloegin or southern comfort.

There are no atheists in foxholes.

Winnie

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 227
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 1:51:11 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Within these writings, it is quite clear that God created a man after he had rested.  Therefore, he created man, at least twice.

Few people are at their best and brightest just after a snooze.


I know....I'm always grumpy and disorganised, it takes caffeine to bring me back to human status.


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The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 228
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 1:53:49 PM   
MasterJack53


Posts: 89
Joined: 1/24/2006
Status: offline 		youre so full of yourself it isnt even funny. I did start the thread. I did fight dirty. but you, and I emphasize YOU were the first to sink to personal attacks and insults. as for having to drag my finger across the screen to read what you wrote, well, my screen is clean. is there drool on yours? you must be a ball at parties. Your quick wit and sense of humor and history must make everyone laugh. trouble is, unlike when I tell a joke or join a conversation, they are laughing AT you, not with you. Now since my moronic attempts to string words together to form a sentence bothers you, why dont you just drop out of the convo and have peace and quiet? Please dont worry about me. I have done fine during my 56 years on the earth. but then if I told you why I say that youd just call me a liar again. so have a good life. bye bye.

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Profile   Post #: 229
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 1:55:29 PM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
yeah, I am cursed with an intellectual starch blocker myself, although I have prayed in moments of weekness as a teenager hugging the porcelain and projectile vomiting technicolor yawns of sloegin or southern comfort.

And there's no hangover like a Southern Comfort hangover. God alone knows what they put in stuff. I still like it from time to time, mind.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 1:56:31 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJack53

ok, Im not a Biblical scholar, priest,minister,preacher or divinity student but I think I can explain the confusion here. first you interpet the Bible verse Genisis 2 to say that God created a man on the 8th day because it says:

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. "

I think if you ask someone that is one of those things Im not what this is saying is like a review of what God did in the 7 days. If you take the interpretation you are using,. there would also be two garden of Edens. see


I do see your point.  I would like to point out that I am not suggesting this is true, but suggesting that this is a viable account and interpretation that some christians use - like your example of Lilith.  She isn't mentioned in the bible (it is debatable that the screech owl/lilith in Isaiah is the same).  Yet she is still a possibility that cannot be discounted entirely.

Now, to further this discussion, I will put this to you.
In Gen 1 when he creates man in his image - he does so to create hunters and fishers.  It is very precise wording.
quote:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


In Gen 2 it is again precise.  He creates a man to 'till the ground'.  There was no second eden.  But a garden in the eastside of eden.

quote:

there was not a man to till the ground. 

But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.   And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.



quote:

as for youre quote:

"Translations are using the word adam and 'ethHa'adam, which indicates that they are inherently different, but still both man."

if you go to HTTP://www.solhaam.org/articles/genheb.html you will see they are indeed the same person. Please go to it and read it.


That is what I said.  They both mean man.  However they are different, which could indicate the difference between man as a noun and man as a proper noun - if you understand the difference?  The link you provided supports my view.

quote:

as for the weather report :), its warm here during the day but chilly at night. Im in Madison, Tn just outside Nashville. Im glad we have settled down to an intelligent conversation without the intrusion of the ones doing the personal attacking.

Oh it is still very cold here in blighty - well at least in the place I am.  The rain is tipping it down too and we have a forcast of terrible winds.  Time to buckle down I believe!

quote:

 I really have done the things I said in the Military and the history I provided is true and verifiable. and the history I provided to the one Englander is historical and he's saying Im making it up. I dont like being attacked and yes I do get defensive but thats my insecurity. I want to be liked by people and I get "hurt" when people treat me like him and his female friend did and they have no basis for it, just slinging hurtful words, I get upset.


I can understand feeling upset.  But forgiveness is such a powerful tool.    I am big of the belief of that which is true, needs no justification - if you are comfortable within oneself.  One cannot be liked by all, all the time.  Jesus could dig that. 

the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to MasterJack53)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 2:00:25 PM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJack53

youre so full of yourself it isnt even funny. I did start the thread. I did fight dirty. but you, and I emphasize YOU were the first to sink to personal attacks and insults.

I love the way you don't seem to realise all the posts are timed and dated.

Not only are you spouting bullshit, but it's there for everyone to see, should they choose to look

You'd already been going nasty for a few posts before I even said anything. I was late to the party, as it were - you were busy insulting a couple of women who'd said nothing rude to you.

If you actually believe your version of events then I'd suggest a) checking back through the thread, b) upping your meds a tad or c) both.

(in reply to MasterJack53)
Profile   Post #: 232
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 2:06:31 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJack53

so may I ask, when you say "smile, grimace, curse, laugh out loud at the fuckwittery of some of the posters, and most of all made me proud of the.dark's remarkable patience and restraint in not making some of the comments that I've made in the last fifteen minutes or so. it thereelow the belt when I had been h" what do you mean? who are you aiming that at? Do you feel everyone has made mistakes or do you also feel that Im the one not presenting an intelligent argument? I know I sank to using vulgarity at times but that was human anger at,as I said, things I found hurtful and false. And I think that I only did go below the belt after I felt I had been hit in the nuts first. Oh boy! I feel new attacks comming now.


Master has instructed me to respond that he is too busy watching and enjoying Madness, to come back right now and participate in it.
And he instead feels it more constructive to continue patience to flourish, hence, he allows me to enjoy my discussion with you.

the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 233
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 2:18:03 PM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJack53

so may I ask, when you say "smile, grimace, curse, laugh out loud at the fuckwittery of some of the posters, and most of all made me proud of the.dark's remarkable patience and restraint in not making some of the comments that I've made in the last fifteen minutes or so. it thereelow the belt when I had been h" what do you mean? who are you aiming that at? Do you feel everyone has made mistakes or do you also feel that Im the one not presenting an intelligent argument? I know I sank to using vulgarity at times but that was human anger at,as I said, things I found hurtful and false. And I think that I only did go below the belt after I felt I had been hit in the nuts first. Oh boy! I feel new attacks comming now.


Master has instructed me to respond that he is too busy watching and enjoying Madness, to come back right now and participate in it.
And he instead feels it more constructive to continue patience to flourish, hence, he allows me to enjoy my discussion with you.


I didn't realise he liked watching bloodsports.

He is a bad man, eh?

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 234
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 2:22:44 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
I didn't realise he liked watching bloodsports.

He is a bad man, eh?



Oh, the very baddest, Master Rapier, the very baddest.

the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 235
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 2:23:59 PM   
rockspider


Posts: 633
Joined: 9/26/2009
Status: offline 		I love it when people quote the bible with one liners from it. Always makes me remember and old friend who actually shortly after the episode finished her university degree as a priest. In a discussion on the subject she hauled out a bible and made a statement. Then she did find a quote in that where her statement was verified. Then she found another quote which recanted the first qoute. Then she found another which opposed the second. She carried on like that, must have been at least 20 times. In the end she summed it up in saying, that if you know your bible well enough, there really is a passage for any situation which you can use to prove or disprove whatever you see fit. She did become parish priest in a large community here, where she has served for 30 years +. A remarkable woman.
Sadly enough it is the tecnic the power hungry moneygrabbing evangelists and other forms of religious zealots, with the catholic church as the supreme champion, has used for hundreds of years. The moment i hear someone putting someone else down using bible quotes or demanding they live according to the beliefs of them self, i do cathegorise them as belonging to that group. The bible should really be understood as a work of guidance, forgivenes and humblenes. Hardly caracteristic seen in many of today cristian denominations.

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Profile   Post #: 236
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 2:26:18 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJack53

I just watched some of the movie Jesus Camp and as a Christian I have to say it is embarassing. It is not the way I feel. I think they are brain washing those poor kids. It is not acceptable. Please dont everyone think we are all like that. I appologize for those misguided people in Missouri. Besides, that church wasnt scriptual as it had a female pastor and thats not acceptable.

MasterJack, I agreed with you all the way up to that last sentence. However, unlike most of the other posters who have answered, I respect your right to believe the words in that last sentence. I dread religion threads in forums like this because there are, obviously, people who just lie in wait for the chance to tear someone else's faith and beliefs apart. They ridicule and laugh and condemn and think it makes them look really intellectual and superior. I have never been able to see why they have to do that to feel good about themselves. I say we should each have our own beliefs and be welcome to them. It's obvious not many others think this.

This thread has gone on and on demonstrating just how important it is to some to have the last word on what others should and should not have faith in or believe. I'd recommend you let them have it. It's obviously extremely important. More important than respecting beliefs of others that they do not hold to.

I thought "Jesus Camp" was sad. I also think this thread is as all religion threads here end up being.

May everyone be entitled to their own religious beliefs...or total lack thereof.....luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 11/12/2009 2:27:05 PM >

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RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 2:28:29 PM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rockspider

I love it when people quote the bible with one liners from it. Always makes me remember and old friend who actually shortly after the episode finished her university degree as a priest. In a discussion on the subject she hauled out a bible and made a statement. Then she did find a quote in that where her statement was verified. Then she found another quote which recanted the first qoute. Then she found another which opposed the second. She carried on like that, must have been at least 20 times. In the end she summed it up in saying, that if you know your bible well enough, there really is a passage for any situation which you can use to prove or disprove whatever you see fit. She did become parish priest in a large community here, where she has served for 30 years +. A remarkable woman.
Sadly enough it is the tecnic the power hungry moneygrabbing evangelists and other forms of religious zealots, with the catholic church as the supreme champion, has used for hundreds of years. The moment i hear someone putting someone else down using bible quotes or demanding they live according to the beliefs of them self, i do cathegorise them as belonging to that group. The bible should really be understood as a work of guidance, forgivenes and humblenes. Hardly caracteristic seen in many of today cristian denominations.

<polite applause>

My mum once said something like "I don't mind the product itself, it's the people who manage the franchises I don't get on with".

And for my own 2d worth, I'd suggest that the worst thing anyone did from a "Christian" PoV was to lump the old and new testaments together. The 2 volumes are, mostly, poles apart. They should have gone with the original working titles; "Bible" and "Bible 2.0"

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Profile   Post #: 238
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 2:30:51 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
They should have gone with the original working titles; "Bible" and "Bible 2.0"



Would that make the apocrypha, 'Bible Vista'?

the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 239
RE: Jesus Camp - 11/12/2009 2:32:08 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		millennium I should think

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 240
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