RE: Jesus Camp (Full Version)

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RapierFugue -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/13/2009 12:44:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rockspider

I couldn't agree with you more.
And to top it all seeing some doddering old fool denying his flock the use of condoms and birthcontrol pills while they are dying like flies of AIDS and starvation makes me wanna sell the damned Vatican and spend the money on medicine and food. Nothing harms me more than standing on the steps of some beautiful multimillion dollar church in the Phillipines and see the squatter hut on the other side of the street.
Just like hearing that daft ass Bushman which finally left the White House standing and saying "We still advocate abstinence". He should be sentenced to serve minimum of a year seconded to some AIDS facility in deepest of Africa. I am sure seeing the real world as it is would drastically change his mind.

Indeed so, sir.

It's always saddened me that the Catholic church got things so, so wrong on the AIDS front. Whatever one's opinion of their history and effects (which I consider to be largely negative), the truly tragic thing is that, as a tenet, they're morally clear on the life debate; no death penalty, no abortion. Now I don't agree with them on the abortion choice, but I can at least respect their stance, or would do if it weren't for the truly cataclysmic hash they made of situations like the AIDS epidemic - it further pointed up the huge gulf between white, western, "Christian" [1] ideals and the harsh realities of life in places like Africa.

It would also be easier to take them seriously as a "moral" organisation if their earthly representatives would stop fucking children for a while and concentrate on the matters at hand. I guess we shouldn't be surprised; when a god demands that its representatives live in celibacy the results are unlikely to be wholesome. For the overwhelming majority of people it's just not a natural state; periods of it maybe, but a lifetime? I don't think so.

[1] I don't actually consider their approach to AIDS to be in the spirit of Christianity - I used to know a catholic priest, a fine man, and he said that, whenever the church came across a new situation, such as AIDS, they shouldn't turn to the bible as doctrine, but instead ask themselves what Jesus would have said about such a thing. I doubt his approach (whether you think of him as merely an enlightened man, or instead as the son of god) would have mirrored the Pope's



lusciouslips19 -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/13/2009 5:11:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

yeah, I am cursed with an intellectual starch blocker myself, although I have prayed in moments of weekness as a teenager hugging the porcelain and projectile vomiting technicolor yawns of sloegin or southern comfort.

There are no atheists in foxholes.

Winnie


Jesus!

Southern Comfort?

I would not wish that on anyone, but at least you survived.


I adore SC ... and unless I drink more than a bottle it doesn't upset my system.

Oh, and a great summertime drink for when it's hot; pint glass of apple juice with ice, lob in a couple of shots of SC. Lovely [:D]


Pffft

That stuff is vile. Drank it when I was a wee youngun. I liked a Slow Screw when in college(with O,J.).
Now I drink Makers Mark or Basil Hayden(Bourbon). I like it neat.

I guess Im just more manly. Or maybe a woman of ill repute?[:D]



Alphascendant -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/13/2009 5:38:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


But worshipping cardboard idols of GWB? that aint in the books, neither of them.



This doesn't look like GWB to me....
Check out the sixth video down.



zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/13/2009 5:43:39 AM)

quote:

I liked a Slow Screw when in college


I'm rather fond of a slow screw myself [:)]



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/13/2009 9:52:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alphascendant


This doesn't look like GWB to me....
Check out the sixth video down.



The fact that singing songs to a sitting president is not something that is appropriate has already been discussed and generally agreed to. The idea of whipping children into a relegious frenzy and having them marry the images of Bush and Jesus is at least equally inappropriate.

Welcome to the "It doesn't matter what we do as long as we can say the left wing is worse" school of conservative thought. You have lots of company.



GotSteel -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/13/2009 8:52:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
I do not deny that the bible teaches female submission.  But it also does not openly insist that women cannot be teachers, or prophets.  It teaches them to be submissive.  It teaches them to be gentle and peaceful.  But it does not teach them silence.


I'm skeptical that the use of the word silent is a bad translation on account of how common it is among the various translations of the Bible. Where exactly did you get that idea?



Kirata -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/13/2009 9:03:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I do not deny that the bible teaches female submission. But it also does not openly insist that women cannot be teachers, or prophets. It teaches them to be submissive. It teaches them to be gentle and peaceful. But it does not teach them silence.


Unh, what Bible would that be?

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. ~1 Timothy 2:12

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. ~1 Corinthians 14:34

K.






Marc2b -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/13/2009 9:26:08 PM)

quote:

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. ~1 Timothy 2:12

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. ~1 Corinthians 14:34


God - the very first Gorean.



RCdc -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/14/2009 2:58:39 PM)

Gotsteel and Kirata... I already spoke about it on a thread a while back.  The word in the orignal means 'peaceful'.  That's been changed into 'silent' thanks to bad translation.

the.dark.



GotSteel -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/14/2009 3:59:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Gotsteel and Kirata... I already spoke about it on a thread a while back.  The word in the orignal means 'peaceful'.  That's been changed into 'silent' thanks to bad translation.


Yeah you've tried that already. Unless you can put forth some significant credentials as a biblical scholar what you've spoken doesn't mean a thing. However, I suspect this is something you've picked up elsewhere not just your personal interpretation, if so cite your source.



Kirata -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/14/2009 4:14:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

The word in the orignal means 'peaceful'. That's been changed into 'silent' thanks to bad translation.

And we know this because you say so, eh? Well damn, end of story then. [:D]

K.





RCdc -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/14/2009 4:57:08 PM)

*puts on best accent* I learned it in bible class....[;)]

Seriously... for Mr and Mr Average its not that difficult to look up a word though.  You don't have to be a 'scholar' to know how to do that?  And it's not that difficult to study where words originated.
Even the greek and hebrew dictionaries can do that for you.

It's pretty well known that there are far more words that have still been only roughly translated into english, this is one of those words.  The word is used in Acts also... I cannot remember the verse it off the top of my head but it's when Paul was testifying about his 'vision'.  In that, it never meant that he silenced everyone with his words, only that he calmed them/kept the peace.

Hebrew and greek aren't any different to english is the way there are the same words to describe different states and yet mean the same.  Like the word 'sing'  - falsetto and soprano are very different ways of singing - but they can still be translated as singing - or even song.  But they are still different ways of doing it.

Hesuchia (ἡσυχίαν) means 'quiet' -  but it doesn't mean as in to be quiet - or 'silence' as they tried to translate it as in older books like the KJV.  It is more like 'peaceful'  or 'gentle'... as in to be calm in your delivery.

Edit to add... I have never claimed to be a scholar.  And yet, I have studied and asked, simply because I don't dig bias.  I can't cite sources who are wiki websites if that's what you are looking for - for you because these come from direct souces and people who are either greek orth or Rabbi or Priest.  The easiest thing I can do is say - read a dictionary - apart from it being an incredibly hot thing to do - it gives you pretty much what you ask for.  And if you want the original greek and hebrew bibles, they are out there too.  It's really not that hard - unless you are too lazy to look, or you really can't be bothered and just want to stick to you think you know.

the.dark.



Kirata -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/14/2009 5:14:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Seriously... for Mr and Mr Average its not that difficult to look up a word

Hesuchia (ἡσυχίαν) means 'quiet' -  but it doesn't mean as in to be quiet - or 'silence' as they tried to translate it as in older books like the KJV.  It is more like 'peaceful'  or 'gentle'... as in to be calm in your delivery.


Hesuchia Noun Feminine
1. quietness
2. silence

1 Corinthians 14:34

New International Version (©1984)
women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

International Standard Version (©2008)
the women must keep silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak out, but must place themselves in submission, as the oral law also says.

King James Bible
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

American Standard Version
let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith.

Darby Bible Translation
Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not permitted to them to speak; but to be in subjection, as the law also says.

English Revised Version
Let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.

Webster's Bible Translation
Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak: but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Young's Literal Translation
Your women in the assemblies let them be silent, for it hath not been permitted to them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith;

Kirata the Average








RCdc -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/14/2009 5:27:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Hesuchia Noun Feminine
1. quietness
2. silence


And which dictionary was that?


hésuchia
from hésuchios
Definition
stillness
NASB Word Usage
quiet (2), quiet fashion (1), quietly (1).

hésuchios
Word Origin
a prol. form of hésuchos (still, quiet)
Definition
tranquil

NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries


 
I will repeat, it's only been changed into 'silence' via misrepresentation.
Strongs pretty much explains how it means quietness... and if you follow it's derivatives they lead onto tranquil, gentle etc.  All the other texts that use it biblically, or it's derivatives, are translated as some sort of peaceful representation.  Its only because this related to women that it suddenly became 'silence'.

You can take a word and say it means silence all you want - ( and I don't ever remember the quiet being completely silent[;)]), but you need to also place it into context of what is being said and the reasons why it was said.

the.dark.



Kirata -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/14/2009 5:35:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I will repeat, it's only been changed into 'silence' via misrepresentation.

Strongs pretty much explains how it means quietness...

hesuchia - Strong's number 2271

feminine of hesuchios 2272; (as noun) stillness, i.e. desistance from bustle or language:--quietness, silence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

You can take a word and say it means silence all you want

I'm not the one saying it, in case you haven't noticed.

But you can claim to be right all you want...

Have a nice day.

K.




RCdc -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/14/2009 5:43:48 PM)

Well, you have already made your mind up - cool!
But if you ignore the social and historical context of why the word is made, you still miss out on the possibilities of what it can be - and based on other data, such as Acts, Thessalonians etc I would rather stick to what I have been told, that silence isn't as strict a word as some people would prefere to make out for their own agendas.

I don't have an agenda on this - I don't preach in church and don't plan too, I don;t want to be a vicar, I'm not a female dominant and I pretty much dig submission.  And if Master tells me to shut up, I do.

I just find the bible sexy as a book... like most books.[;)]

the.dark.



Kirata -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/14/2009 5:51:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I would rather stick to what I have been told, that silence isn't as strict a word as some people would prefere to make out for their own agendas.

That is an entirely different matter.

K.



GotSteel -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/14/2009 6:03:23 PM)

Kirata, [sm=rofl.gif]you beat me to it. Almost word for word the same post I was writing.

Darcy, seriously cite sources for any of what you've just said. A credible Biblical scholar who supports your position, a version of the Bible containing your translation. Even using a dictionary to support your position would be a start. What you've done instead when asked for evidence (restating your claim followed by a personal attack) can be paraphrased to:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Everyone should completely disregard my claim.





GotSteel -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/14/2009 6:13:13 PM)

Hey, quoting a dictionary while I was writing my post, good for you, keep going. 
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I would rather stick to what I have been told...
 
Didn't you just chew out Master Jack for doing that?




WyldHrt -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/15/2009 4:07:19 AM)

And people wonder why I'm an agnostic, lol [:D]



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