RE: Jesus Camp

RE: Jesus Camp (Full Version)

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WyldHrt -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 1:32:00 AM)
quote: oozes love for the wyldone too... But that's the beauty isn't it? Not always agreeing, but loving regardless? [:)] hesuchia - in peace and gentleness As women are (literaly) BIBLICALLY taught... NOT in silence. But I am sure many will not allow the lack of translation marr their own interpretation. Hmm... I dunno about oozing love, esp at 1AM Cali time on a weeknight... [;)] You are spot on about the rest, though. It would be hella boring if we all never disagreed, and worse if those disagreements got in the way of appreciating and loving each other for who we are. [:)]

NihilusZero -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 1:34:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJack53 how is this a response to one of my posts? do you want me to teach you? Id have to use the Bible and since you dont believe in it whats the sense in that? You claimed you only ever encountered two contradictions (which you now "understand"). Surely you must have clear answers to the questions I posed, yes?

rockspider -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 1:35:41 AM)
Which bible are we talking about. Is it that book which we have in the church of Denmark and have been revised countless times? The one in the the catholic church in english which have been revised slightly less and translated from latin? Or is it the Sct. James bible which is only readable if you have the concise Oxford dictionary next to you. Or is it the books in the Vaticans possession which is in latin and more than 1000 years old. Or is it the 4 documents in aramaeic and choosen by the then church elders to represent "The Book" which in reality is only 4 out of about 30 gospels actuately known to science today. Poor little me i am just a little confused. Welll not that confused after all. It is much easier to say "I don't belive in any of that nonsense" than try and find out of the above. I do believe Jesus was a historical figure, but who was he? No doubt that he was the first true socialist on record. Also he had strong hippie tendensies as he did reject all that stuff about personal wealth. I wonder what he would have said about that one of the worlds wealthiest organisations has been created to worship him. I think he would be as mad as a hatter over that. His gathering of his disciple and the expectation of true loyalties to him suggest that he was quite a dominant personality. His interaction with Maria Magdalena also points to that he did have quite a foot fetish. Of course his chosen way of death, as he really did have quite a few escape routes offered to him, but he stuck to his guns, certainly points to that he did have quite a masochistic streak to him as well, and did have real sense for what we today would consider as a "Drama Queen". Today we often refer to people who is looking for 15 minutes of fame. That guy really made it. He got 2000 years of fame. Pheew, i better get out of here, before the holier than thou brigade arrives with the pitchforks and pickaxes. After all it wasn't that long ago they torched people for believing that the world was round.

RCdc -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 1:47:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJack53 as for me not being a gentleman, since I was attacked first, Ill pass on that stupidity. as for you having debated with some of the "very best" I dont doubt it. They are on this very thread? I doubt that as I havent seen it yet. I will concede the point that I may be brainwashed. Those that have had this procedure done to them dont recognize that its been done to them. However, I was 46 years old when I got saved, not 5 like the one boy in the video. And I think at 5 I only wanted more candy and soda not more from life like same said boy. I dont have any knowledge of Greek and Hebrew translations. I dont need them. I have seen videos about lost gospels, the dead sea scrolls etc and found them both enlightening and informative. I have two on hold at our local library now. "The lost gospel of Judas" both the book explaining where it was found, and the video in case Im too dumb to understand the book. I was not interpetting the Bible when I said what I said about the video "Jesus Camp", I intended to point out that it was the exception and not the rule in that they were "brainwashing" children under the age of enlightenment. That means they are too young to understand in case you might not know it. (no insult, slur or harm meant by that btw). As for manning up for what I said, I may have spoken harshly in anger and been disrespectful but I think I was just responding to a preceived insult. I have not insulted you at all. I may have questioned your stance and joked around with the steroetype of the female, but personal insults are pointless and only detract from the heart of threads. It is heartfelt when I say that if you found your faith at 46, then great for you. People have different faiths and beliefs and they come across them and have them affirmed and that is fantastic. But it's important to be able to, in some way, uphold claims with some semblience of peace and knowledge. Unlike yourself, I believe and have been taught that to know the bible, one has to know and understand the translations and have a basic understanding of the historical references. Otherwise it's all just guess work. Whilst the quotes you made at first glance have a straight forward and literal meaning, they were badly translated and bias. Now I am not Pauls biggest fan by a long shot... but when Paul wrote about women 'staying silent' the word is badly interpreted. It doesn't mean silence, but it means in peace - that women should be humble and gentle. He was also not speaking about single women - that was quite clear. The church at that time was a mess. It was disorganised and frantic with people shouting out and interupting teachings. Married women - unless they were from extremely rich families - had no access to education. It was common for them to ask questions whilst attending services. Pauls instruction was for them to be patient and to not interupt, but to ask their fathers, husbands and brothers when they got home. It had nothing to do with always staying silent in church. It's fabulous you have found a book that you can relate to. It's good you have made a start on the apoch books. But I would urge you to not become so blind by the literal interpretation, and to learn that the translation is still going on today. And that the history and social implications are just as important to take into consideration. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 1:52:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt Hmm... I dunno about oozing love, esp at 1AM Cali time on a weeknight... [;)] You are spot on about the rest, though. It would be hella boring if we all never disagreed, and worse if those disagreements got in the way of appreciating and loving each other for who we are. [:)] Hey, it's just after 9am here in blighty. Now if it was 1am for me.... oozing might be a stretch...[:D] the.dark.

MasterJack53 -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:02:43 AM)
then you need new binoculars miss. I will be glad to send you proof of the following claims if you will accpet snail mail (as I cant get my damn scanner to work. never claimed to be a computer whiz though) I took my BCT (basic Combat Training) at Ft Knox,Ky Nov 71 to Jan 72. I attended AIT (Advanced INdividual Training) at the US Army Signal School in Ft Gordon, Ga Jan 72 to Apr 72. I graduated and received the MOS (military Occupational Specialty) of 72F Data Communications Terminal Equipment Operator.I then took an additonal 8 weeks of traing to be assigned to the armys ASA (Army Security Agency) There I was given an additonal skill Identifier of SII (sattilite image interperter) From there I was assigned to the 102nd Signal Battalion, Darmstadt Detachment until December of 72. then it was on to Holland to be assigned to the 102nd Signal Battalion, Benelux Detachment at Brunssum the Netherlands in support of AFCENT (Allied Forces Central Europe NATO) where I was in the section that supported the USLO (United States Liason Officer) a 3 star general, with intelligence, signal and communications support. Then it was back to Ft Gordon Ga for MP (Military Police) school as I had to have a secondary MOS due to the ASA being disbanded. I never served as an MP though. and that MOS was 95B. I was then assigned to the 46th Support Group(CORPS) in support of the 18th Airborne Corps at Ft Bragg,NC. From there it was back to Europe where I served with the 97th Signal Constabulary CENTAG (Central Army Group NATO) in Mannheim Germany, Coleman Barracks. the same post as the stockade was in. From there I was sent to Ft Campbell, Ky to be in the 311th Military Intelligence Battallion,525th Military Intelligence Brigade, Airborne (CEWI) (I was not a paratrooper, I didnt have the gut for it) CEWI stands for Communications Electronic Warfare and Intelligence. Then it was back to Europe where I was assigned to the 1st Battallion, 9th Field Artillary Brigade (Pershing). Pershing was a tactical nuclear missle btw. There I served as the Comsec (communications security) NCO (non commissioned officer) for a firing battery and later as Battallion Assistant COMSEC Custodian. Then it was back to Ft Bragg to serve in the 319th MI Bn, 525 MI Brigade,airborne, 18th Airborne Corps and I was the platoon Sgt and Comsec Custodian for the 319th. with this unit I was able to participate in both Operation Desert Shield and Desert Storm. I received the Army Commendation Medal for my actions. Now as your military contacts will tell you. an ARCOM is not a high medal. actually it used to be called a bye bye award as almost everyone got it when they went from post to post. Mine, however is different, as was all ARCOMS awarded by my Bde(Brigade), in that I am authorized to wear the Bronze V device for valor indicating it was awarded for combat service in a time of conflict. I retired in December of 91 from that unit. I have been awarded the Kuwait Liberation Medal (both U.S. and Saudi Arabian versions), the Southwest Asia Service Medal (for Desert Shield and Storm), the National Defence Medal with 2 bronze star devices for serving during the vietnam conflict (which I didnt fight in) and the Desert Shield and Storm Operations, the army good conduct medal with silver knot(ask your service connections what that means), and I was awarded a medal you wont be able to verify called the CIA (Central Intelligence Agency) Medal of Valor. It was, when being awarded, equal to the Armys Silver Star. I was one of only 4 active duty service members to ever recive this award. I say it cant be verified because A) it was a classified operation and B) its the CIA for crying out loud (haha). Now provide me with a snail mail addy and Ill send you what I have verifying most of what I have said here but I do believe that if your military contacts are real, they will verify that I have indeed served. I say most of because back a few years ago, a vindictive wife burned a folder holding some of my certificates and orders.

MasterJack53 -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:05:26 AM)
I dont recall saying I only ran into two contridictions. There were more than that as I remember. and as for answering your questions, you answer mine first. deal?

MasterJack53 -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:17:01 AM)
I dont claim to be, nor consider myself, a Bible Scholar. I am just a simple man of faith who, given a Bible in the English language, the language I speak and understand, go by its writings. I once had the opportunity while stationed in Holland, to get to see and touch a Gutenberg Bible which you know was written in German (I think). I didnt understand a word of it then as I hadnt learned any German yet. I did however think I was looking at a fictional book at the time as I didnt believe in Christ or the Bible. I can not carry out a discourse with you about what Paul meant or didnt mean. All I can say is I read it, I asked about it, prayed about it and decised it meant that women cant be Pastors, Ministers or Preachers. It does say somewhere in the book though that they should be teachers of the word. I, and I cant stress strongly enough the word I, interpeted that to mean they can teach Sunday school, teach the husband about Christ and God if he is a non believer, and witness (I understand that to mean talk about to others) what they believe and have lived in their religion and faith. As for the apocoliptic (I think thats how it is spelt) books, I have an interest in them as they may give more insight into what I believe. Of course, they could just prove things wrong and then its back to praying. I am whats called a Revalationist as I am very interested in the book of revelation. i do know that at the council of Nicea called by King James, this section of the Bible was moved to be behind the General Epistle of Jude when it was originally before it. Why he did that I dont know but have wondered. I am in the process of converting to Mormonisim and I know that will bring on more attacks but as it has been said here many times, I am entitled to my beliefs and faith. I take the Bible at its face, not searching to see if it is true. If I did that what kind of faith would I have? As I understand it, faith is believing something you can not see or touch but only feel with your heart. Do you agree?

MasterJack53 -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:18:13 AM)
it's 4 AM here in Tennessee and this interesting debate means I wont get to bed haha.

WyldHrt -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:23:20 AM)
quote: Hey, it's just after 9am here in blighty. Now if it was 1am for me.... oozing might be a stretch...[:D] the.dark. LOL, are you trying to say that you are an early oozer? Seriously, one of my fave things about having friends across the pond is the time zone jokes [:D]

MasterJack53 -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:26:57 AM)
ok Ill tell ya. Adam was created....just before Eve. HAHA? and Lilith, as believed by the Jews and some Christians, was Adams first wife. Before Eve. She was creaded from dirt just as Adam was and therefore thought she was equal to him. God banished her from the Garden and she became evil. Now this story isnt in the Bible but Rabinical Jews believe it and as I said some Christians do too. I dont know what to think of it as I havent seen anything proving or disproving the story. So please, can we not make nasty remarks or challenges to this post? It was sent in the hopes of being funny, not enlightening.

RCdc -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:34:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJack53 I can not carry out a discourse with you about what Paul meant or didnt mean. All I can say is I read it, I asked about it, prayed about it and decised it meant that women cant be Pastors, Ministers or Preachers. Which is fine, however knowing what was written and guessing is walking really uneven ground. As a 'christian' one should test the teachings, through prayer and study. Now - I have given you a few words and explainations and you can look into it yourself - it's your choice whether you do or not. quote: It does say somewhere in the book though that they should be teachers of the word. I, and I cant stress strongly enough the word I, interpeted that to mean they can teach Sunday school, teach the husband about Christ and God if he is a non believer, and witness (I understand that to mean talk about to others) what they believe and have lived in their religion and faith. So, that said - where would a woman, offering the opinion that literal interpretation isn't infalible, stand in all this? quote: As for the apocoliptic (I think thats how it is spelt) books, I have an interest in them as they may give more insight into what I believe. Of course, they could just prove things wrong and then its back to praying. I am whats called a Revalationist as I am very interested in the book of revelation. i do know that at the council of Nicea called by King James, this section of the Bible was moved to be behind the General Epistle of Jude when it was originally before it. Why he did that I dont know but have wondered. I am in the process of converting to Mormonisim and I know that will bring on more attacks but as it has been said here many times, I am entitled to my beliefs and faith. Of course you are. And attacks occur whatever the faith. But it's important to pay attention to that which is an attack, to that which is questioning. quote: I take the Bible at its face, not searching to see if it is true. If I did that what kind of faith would I have? As I understand it, faith is believing something you can not see or touch but only feel with your heart. Do you agree? Exactly - search to see if it is true. I am not a scholar, would never make that claim because it's too grand a proclamation. But it''s not an impossible thing to search out translations and different biblical interpretations. It makes me stronger in the end. I disagree that faith is believing in something you cannot touch or see and only feel. I do know that if you believe in the bible and the teachings of christ, then you know that god is all around. If he is all around, that means you can see and touch him. Ultimately, that doesn't make faith a belief in the supernatural, just an understanding that what you believe in, will have it's fruition. the.dark.

WyldHrt -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:37:55 AM)
quote: then you need new binoculars miss. I will be glad to send you proof of the following claims if you will accpet snail mail (as I cant get my damn scanner to work. never claimed to be a computer whiz though) I took my BCT (basic Combat Training) at Ft Knox,Ky Nov 71 to Jan 72. I attended AIT (Advanced INdividual Training) at the US Army Signal School in Ft Gordon, Ga Jan 72 to Apr 72. I graduated and received the MOS (military Occupational Specialty) of 72F Data Communications Terminal Equipment Operator.I then took an additonal 8 weeks of traing to be assigned to the armys ASA (Army Security Agency) There I was given an additonal skill Identifier of SII (sattilite image interperter) From there I was assigned to the 102nd Signal Battalion, Darmstadt Detachment until December of 72. then it was on to Holland to be assigned to the 102nd Signal Battalion, Benelux Detachment at Brunssum the Netherlands in support of AFCENT (Allied Forces Central Europe NATO) where I was in the section that supported the USLO (United States Liason Officer) a 3 star general, with intelligence, signal and communications support. Then it was back to Ft Gordon Ga for MP (Military Police) school as I had to have a secondary MOS due to the ASA being disbanded. I never served as an MP though. and that MOS was 95B. I was then assigned to the 46th Support Group(CORPS) in support of the 18th Airborne Corps at Ft Bragg,NC. From there it was back to Europe where I served with the 97th Signal Constabulary CENTAG (Central Army Group NATO) in Mannheim Germany, Coleman Barracks. the same post as the stockade was in. From there I was sent to Ft Campbell, Ky to be in the 311th Military Intelligence Battallion,525th Military Intelligence Brigade, Airborne (CEWI) (I was not a paratrooper, I didnt have the gut for it) CEWI stands for Communications Electronic Warfare and Intelligence. Then it was back to Europe where I was assigned to the 1st Battallion, 9th Field Artillary Brigade (Pershing). Pershing was a tactical nuclear missle btw. There I served as the Comsec (communications security) NCO (non commissioned officer) for a firing battery and later as Battallion Assistant COMSEC Custodian. Then it was back to Ft Bragg to serve in the 319th MI Bn, 525 MI Brigade,airborne, 18th Airborne Corps and I was the platoon Sgt and Comsec Custodian for the 319th. with this unit I was able to participate in both Operation Desert Shield and Desert Storm. I received the Army Commendation Medal for my actions. Now as your military contacts will tell you. an ARCOM is not a high medal. actually it used to be called a bye bye award as almost everyone got it when they went from post to post. Mine, however is different, as was all ARCOMS awarded by my Bde(Brigade), in that I am authorized to wear the Bronze V device for valor indicating it was awarded for combat service in a time of conflict. I retired in December of 91 from that unit. I have been awarded the Kuwait Liberation Medal (both U.S. and Saudi Arabian versions), the Southwest Asia Service Medal (for Desert Shield and Storm), the National Defence Medal with 2 bronze star devices for serving during the vietnam conflict (which I didnt fight in) and the Desert Shield and Storm Operations, the army good conduct medal with silver knot(ask your service connections what that means), and I was awarded a medal you wont be able to verify called the CIA (Central Intelligence Agency) Medal of Valor. It was, when being awarded, equal to the Armys Silver Star. I was one of only 4 active duty service members to ever recive this award. I say it cant be verified because A) it was a classified operation and B) its the CIA for crying out loud (haha). Now provide me with a snail mail addy and Ill send you what I have verifying most of what I have said here but I do believe that if your military contacts are real, they will verify that I have indeed served. I say most of because back a few years ago, a vindictive wife burned a folder holding some of my certificates and orders. If any of the above didn't come from your fertile imagination, then you are seriously a douchebag. If you don't understand why, ask your buddies from the CIA.

RapierFugue -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:39:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I do know that if you believe in the bible and the teachings of christ, then you know that god is all around. If he is all around, that means you can see and touch him. Ewwwwwwwww [:'(]

RCdc -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:43:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJack53 ok Ill tell ya. Adam was created....just before Eve. HAHA? and Lilith, as believed by the Jews and some Christians, was Adams first wife. Before Eve. She was creaded from dirt just as Adam was and therefore thought she was equal to him. God banished her from the Garden and she became evil. Now this story isnt in the Bible but Rabinical Jews believe it and as I said some Christians do too. I dont know what to think of it as I havent seen anything proving or disproving the story. So please, can we not make nasty remarks or challenges to this post? It was sent in the hopes of being funny, not enlightening. How about the position from some christian camps that adam was not created until the eighth day(maybe a few days after)? That what was created on the 6th, were in fact 'races'? After all, adam - translated as 'man' was created before god rested. He then created from the earth, Adam ('ethHa'adam) after he had rested. It's all there in Gen2. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:45:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RapierFugue quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I do know that if you believe in the bible and the teachings of christ, then you know that god is all around. If he is all around, that means you can see and touch him. Ewwwwwwwww [:'(] Oh it's ok... Jesus loves traffic wardens too....[:D] Now you can ewwwww...... the.dark.

MasterJack53 -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:46:07 AM)
quote: So, that said - where would a woman, offering the opinion that literal interpretation isn't infalible, stand in all this? again, because of what I believe, if she was asking for enlightenment there would be no problem but if she was asking from the pupit as the Pastor or Minister Id walk out of the church (which I have done in a church in NY when the three women in the church operations area got mad at the Pastor and got their friends to vote to fire him and replaced him with a female preacher). This is because of what I believe. No one told me to do it. I may have been wrong but in my mind and in some others, more in agreement then disagreement, I felt justified in doing so. as for God being all around, again, He is to the believers. He has said wherever two or more of you are gathered in My name I am there. I have a funny story about that but since it will probably not be appreciated for its humor Ill not write it here. but I look forward to the day, after the Rapture, when I can indeed see my God and His son Jesus in person in His heaven. I have had experiences which proved to me He exists. Again, I dont feel I want my personal experiences made light of or challanged so I wont share them. However, I do belive He is watching over and protecting the faithful and those who havent been enlightened yet. I interpet faith as I did and use this comparison: if Im standing in the middle of the street and a bus is about to hit me, if I believe it isnt going to hit me I will end up in the hospital or the morgue. If I have true faith that God will protect me then the bus will not hit me and I wont be hurt.

RapierFugue -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:47:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: MasterJack53 ok Ill tell ya. Adam was created....just before Eve. HAHA? and Lilith, as believed by the Jews and some Christians, was Adams first wife. Before Eve. She was creaded from dirt just as Adam was and therefore thought she was equal to him. God banished her from the Garden and she became evil. Now this story isnt in the Bible but Rabinical Jews believe it and as I said some Christians do too. I dont know what to think of it as I havent seen anything proving or disproving the story. So please, can we not make nasty remarks or challenges to this post? It was sent in the hopes of being funny, not enlightening. How about the position from some christian camps that adam was not created until the eighth day(maybe a few days after)? That what was created on the 6th, were in fact 'races'? After all, adam - translated as 'man' was created before god rested. He then created from the earth, Adam ('ethHa'adam) after he had rested. It's all there in Gen2. the.dark. This may help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaLF8UGr0hQ <thinks> Then again, it may not [;)]

RCdc -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:48:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: Hey, it's just after 9am here in blighty. Now if it was 1am for me.... oozing might be a stretch...[:D] the.dark. LOL, are you trying to say that you are an early oozer? Seriously, one of my fave things about having friends across the pond is the time zone jokes [:D] Hehe... gotta get early on the oozing... Meh.... and now I gotta go get on the shopping chore too.... (don't get too excited... groceries...[:-]) the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Jesus Camp (11/12/2009 2:49:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RapierFugue This may help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaLF8UGr0hQ <thinks> Then again, it may not [;)] OMG I LOVE Tim Minchin!!!!!!!!!!! I think he is probably one of my most quoted links at the moment...[:D][:D][:D][:D] the.dark.

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