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RE: What do I really want? What really matters? - 11/14/2009 8:40:30 AM

ranja

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I do not deny that this precious bond is a good thing... that this limbic connection the op is on about is of importance to her or that it is important for you to have your authentic self accepted

what i am saying is that other people's authentic selves might have a chapter that is all about sex and having a good time with the dirty bits and that it is just as important for them to be accepted
some people get so wrapped up in having their authentic selves accepted that they have not much room left to actually do much accepting themselves.

So looking at the ceiling because you simply can not muster any enjoyment in what he does to you is totally sad especially since you only might want to look at this ceiling say once or twice a year... and you will make sure that he knows you only allow him this pleasure because he has been nagging you about it... and bought you some chocolates last week, and you really quite resent him for being so selfish.

What i am saying is that unless people are into cuckolding the above is a totally unacceptable way to conduct a relationship in my opinion and bound for disaster
and when people break up it does not matter anymore what came first, the problem about the authentic self being accepted or the lack of sex...
for me it becomes far more easy to accept all sorts of things as long as i am sexually satified, i would hope any dissagreements could be settled without having to withold sex from me

i will always try to keep the engine running... because if you don't use it you lose it
it is so much more difficult to start things up from scratch than it is to adjust something that is still going eventhough it might sputter and cough

Some people might indeed be helped to be allowed to use an escort service once a week, the question is would the person who is so busy having their authentic self accepted stand for that?

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RE: What do I really want? What really matters? - 11/14/2009 9:10:24 AM

DesFIP

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I'm not promoting manipulation of people by using sex as a bargaining tool. I don't promote manipulation of a partner in any case. I'm just saying that doing it with hostility is not a good thing.

I don't have to be turned on myself to see to his needs. There are times I'm not feeling well and I know I won't enjoy it, but that doesn't mean I can't do this for him with love simply because I love him.

And there are times he doesn't feel up to it but he's more than willing to lend me a hand simply because he loves me.
And in a marriage, love and caring for each other should be the bottom line whether it's me making him lunch when he's hungry and I'm not or him stroking me when I'm all turned on and he's not. Or renting a movie you know you won't much enjoy because he loves the Lethal Weapon series.

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RE: What do I really want? What really matters? - 11/15/2009 2:05:30 AM

angeldmort

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Wow.
FYI - the limbic system of the brain is what controls emotional bonds.

Where did this idea that someone is purposefully witholding sex our of resentment come from, and why are you so obsessed with that idea? It seems to be a running theme, and your first assumption. No one else assumed it was a her punishing him situation. And if you feel that everyone manipulates other people, perhaps we define "manipulate" differently, or perhaps you've had a lot of bad experiences. I'm sorry if that's been your situation. I've been there. It got tiresome, so I left.

I love gifts, if they are honestly given. I only object if there's an agenda behind them. If I give a gift, it's not because I want to get something out of it. That makes it not a gift, but a bribe or a payment in advance without negotiation of expectation, thereby negating informed consent. Which is why the word "manipulation" is a problem.
manipulate –verb (used with object), -lat⋅ed, -lat⋅ing.1) to manage or influence skillfully, esp. in an unfair manner: to manipulate people's feelings
3. To tamper with the purpose of deception or falsify for personal gain

It sounds like you have a lot of hostility going on - "waffle on" "arrogant and paranoid and mean and selfish... "
If my posts offend you or you find them annoying, please, feel free not to read them or reply. I won't feel slighted. Really. I hope you'll understand if I feel we have very very different views on relationships and human interaction, and if I just ignore you from now on since your main goal seems to be conflict.

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RE: What do I really want? What really matters? - 11/15/2009 2:19:19 AM

angeldmort

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"Or renting a movie you know you won't much enjoy because he loves the Lethal Weapon series."
Yeah... I used to end up watching a lot of true crime and unsolved murder shows with my ex, and I admit, I hated it. Now I've found I'm watching Metalocolypse with DB and damned if it's not growing on me. Poor Toki. (DB does a great Meatwad impression. lol) I'm glad he liked flea markets before I got him, and chineese food. Not too many comprimises there.

"Insta-relationships are like junk food...you crave it/devour it/you're still hungry."
I do not crave junk food. Nope. Never. You can't prove anything. Ok... maybe McDs fries. Whats the relationship equivilent of deef fat fried carbs?

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RE: What do I really want? What really matters? - 11/15/2009 2:51:15 AM

ranja

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Limbic regulation:

Limbic: belonging to a limbus, or situated in or near a limbus

Limbus: the edge of various organs or body parts, e.g. the area in the eyeball where the cornea and sclera meet

Regulation: the adjusting, organizing, or controlling of something, or the state of being adjusted, organized, or controlled

This is the dictionary I work with… I realise it might not be good enough, but hey.
Now I took it that with limbic regulation you indeed meant to have your emotions and thoughts recognised and understood… and hopefully do some understanding and recognising yourself.

Manipulation: to control or influence somebody or something in an ingenious OR devious way

Ingenious: clever, original, and effective

Devious: not straightforward, sincere, or honest about intentions or motives

What I am saying is that for some people it is very important to have their primal sex needs recognised and understood as well as the rest of the limbic stuff
and that when they buy chocolates or flowers to get their partner in the mood I think that is a perfectly acceptable way to go about things… like you said yourself: you love gifts… and yes it is manipulation, but is it ingenious or devious? Who makes that decision and is it the right one?
To me the reason why they are given does not really matter, if I spoil everybody’s fun by suspecting ulterior motives I have lost my sense of humour and that is what matters to me.
That you have different standards is your business

The reason this thread is about sex V limbic regulation is because you presented it so by more or less accusing the man from the other thread of using in your opinion lousy methods like buying flowers and get-away weekends to save his marriage (which was in serious trouble in his opinion mainly because she was refusing him sex)

I probably perceive you just as hostile as you perceive me; sorry about that, it does not change my opinions though.

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RE: What do I really want? What really matters? - 11/15/2009 9:10:24 PM

PainfullyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: angeldmort

... still have more to consider, but part of it was this -
"I tried everything, flowers, chocolates, lingerie, slap up dinners in 5 star restaurants, romantic getaways"
He really belived that was "everything." He really felt that these were marriage savers.
...
I think the reason this idea bothers me is that I've been there, and problem seems to be that if women aren't DEPENDENT on men, if they don't NEED a man, then they will only have a man around when they WANT him and it's scary to consider having to work hard enough to make someone actually like you when you are used to having the easy out. I haven't been in the Lifestyle that long, but just like vanilla life, it seems that the men who cry loudest against this trend are the ones who are the least willing to consider what a woman wants or make that effort to provide it.

OP - I agree with so much of what you've said! I've heard quite a few men talking like this and I usually tell them that the problem is that they are treating their s.o. like a plant. Women need more than water and light to be happy. Most of the time, they can recount all the points that they made in their most recent argument, but when you say: "OK, how did she respond? What did she say about that?". They have no answer. They weren't listening at all.

Not all men are like this, but I notice the ones that treat women like plants and think they are giving them the world are the same ones who don't listen very well.

Also- Funny story about some vanilla dating I did a while back-

We had a date and he stood me up.
He called and left a message apologizing the next day.
He called again. I took a day to get back to him.
When I got him on the phone, he actually said that he had been about to send me flowers, but since I wasn't mad anymore, there was no need!

Thus, a perfect example of why I have always called roses tools of manipulation and one more reason why I am not very fond of them...

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RE: What do I really want? What really matters? - 11/16/2009 8:12:24 AM

AlexandraLynch

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For the record, I've seen it in F/f relationships too. It works a little differently, but it can be there.

It's not just men who can be greedy assholes. But, of course, needs differ. My husband's girl would drive me batshit insane with her neediness if she were mine, but he likes it, so all is well. I've got subs who have a smart mouth that drives Bear up the wall, but I like it and know that if I tell the sub he's done talking, he'll shut up. (grin)

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RE: What do I really want? What really matters? - 11/16/2009 10:19:06 AM

kiwisub12

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One of the things that broke up my late unlamented marriage was the fact that my X wanted me to need him. I didn't want to need him, i didn't need him, to me it was healthier to want him than need him, and he didn't understand the difference.
He also didn't touch me for days on end - until he wanted sex, then gosh, i was suddenly desirable!

I can't understand why he was surprised when i told him to get out.

I now live with a man who loves and dominated me, to our mutual satisfaction, and it involves lots of touching and cuddling. Love is lovely!!!!!!

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RE: What do I really want? What really matters? - 11/16/2009 10:34:00 AM

bipet123

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I really like your original post. But what happens if you do not respond to the man who does this?
What happens, if you give the hugs, you give the small kisses, you go out of your way to do small little things that you know your partner likes... and you do all this without any expectation of getting anything in return. Your own needs are abandoned and never acknowledged. BUT not only that, the hugs and small kisses etc. become a bit of an irritant with your partner. So no sex, no acknowledgement of your needs, no appreciation of trying to meet your partner's needs, no kissing, no hugging, no doing anything together, living completely separate lives but in the same household but she tells you everyday she loves you, is happy with you and ironically wants a baby with you (but through non-sex methods)... what then?

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RE: What do I really want? What really matters? - 11/16/2009 4:34:33 PM

angeldmort

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Then you get couple's counseling, if she is willing, you get communication going asap, and if not, you move on. Even if she goes to counseling with you, if the bottom line is that she doesn't enjoy your attention, you have to let it go and move on. Actions speak more truth than words. I've been in that place, where a partner isn't a partner, isn't a lover, and who shared my living space but not my life.
I think I CAN say that I tried everything. Couple's counseling, which he refused until I said I was moving out, individual counseling to see if it really was me, and so much more I won't list it here. I finally realized I couldn't get something from him if he didn't have it to give. (After I left, he suddenly began to give all that, but it was desperate and about getting/keeping my attention, rather than giving/sharing warmth & affection, and I absolutely found it annoying and creepy, but that's a little different.)

If you are in the situation you described, get into therapy - do it for you. Get an outside perspective, someone objective, and start asking yourself the hard questions you've probably been avoiding - "What do I expect from a relationship and why?" "Are my expectations realistic?" "Why am I still here if this is how it is?" and "what am I getting out of this?" and "what do I really need to be happy" and "what do I need to change about myself to become the happy person I think I want to be?" and so on. I don't know the details of your life, but any change that occurs in our lives has to start inside us before it can affect the rest of our world.

Sticking my neck out a bit here.... a book that made a lot of difference when I first started dealing with all that was "Codependent No More" by Melanie Beatte, I think. If you are focused on what your partner does or does not to, what they feel and don't feel and don't give, etc, you are still focusing outside yourelf. We can't control anyone else. We can't make them give us anything or feel something they don't. We CAN control our feelings and make different choices. We just have to be willing to own those choices and the concequenses thereof, be honest with ourselves and others, and do the work.

Now that I got all thinky and serious, who has a link to Binky's Rant on Love from mat Groenig's Life is Hell?

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RE: What do I really want? What really matters? - 11/17/2009 4:16:57 AM

DesFIP

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Bipet you tell her that doesn't work for you and you need your needs to be met also. And that should mean couple counseling.

But yes, for all you men out there who think reaching over and touching your wife's hand once during dinner is sufficient foreplay and affection and thus she has to have sex with you directly afterwards - it isn't. We know what you want when you do this and it just makes us less inclined to have sex with you.

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RE: What do I really want? What really matters? - 11/17/2009 5:00:52 AM

ranja

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipet123

I really like your original post. But what happens if you do not respond to the man who does this?
What happens, if you give the hugs, you give the small kisses, you go out of your way to do small little things that you know your partner likes... and you do all this without any expectation of getting anything in return. Your own needs are abandoned and never acknowledged. BUT not only that, the hugs and small kisses etc. become a bit of an irritant with your partner. So no sex, no acknowledgement of your needs, no appreciation of trying to meet your partner's needs, no kissing, no hugging, no doing anything together, living completely separate lives but in the same household but she tells you everyday she loves you, is happy with you and ironically wants a baby with you (but through non-sex methods)... what then?

Counselling is obviously a good idea, but my Husband would not go... for some people it is not an option and the situation MAY be sorted without counselling.

Ask her to have a conversation about this topic... what ever you do: do NOT get angry or start accusing her
ask her why she does not want sex with you... "i don't know" is not an good enough answer
ask her what she thinks you should be doing to get her in the mood.... "i don't know" is not a good enough answer and "if i have to tell you i do not want it anymore" is not a good enough answer either... Tell her that these answers do not help the two of you and you need her imput... maybe allow her to think for a week or so and readdress the issue.
Find out if she ever masturbates... how often...
Ask her what she would consider 'normal' quantity of sex a month for couples and ask her if she would consider allowing the two of you to have half of that amount of sex (or even somewhat less to start with)
then make a date for this sexy time and keep a diary
(sexy time does not have to involve intercourse of course)

It is going to be extremely awkward to start up the engine again but you might succeed and both of you might be soooo much happier

Oh and most importantly: make her laugh!
good luck

< Message edited by ranja -- 11/17/2009 5:20:22 AM >

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RE: What do I really want? What really matters? - 11/17/2009 5:43:33 AM

bipet123

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thank you

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RE: What do I really want? What really matters? - 11/17/2009 6:56:01 PM

Huntertn

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any relationship just tastes better when the want is there...everything is better from sex..to staying at home and doing things with them. I still get a little kick in the ass when my sub comes into the room. If it ever stops I guess we would stop. I hope it never does.....

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