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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/10/2006 10:05:21 PM

windy135

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[/quote]
Absolutely. I am very much in support of people learning many languages, but we all know that it's easier to learn a language when you are young. Since (in our case) English is the major language spoken in our country it makes sense that if possible it should be the first language the child speaks. After all, he/she will be educated and employed in an English-dependant culture.

Oralists believe that since the auditory nerves will atrophy from lack of use, time is of the essence to teach a child to use their hearing and speech. We also believe that learning sign language and english at the same time is problematic (one being a visual language and the other being auditory - it becomes easy to fall back on the easier of the two), and few children educated with this combined approach become successful oral communicators. How many people learn a second language without some immersion approach? Think of oralism as English Immersion.

Many of our children go on to speak Cantonese, Hindi, or whatever other language their family speaks. Few feel the need to go on and learn sign although it is certianly available to them.

Cin
[/quote]

I would have to disagree I think the benefits from learning both sign and speech out weight the losses.

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/10/2006 10:08:48 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
I know what it's like to see someone who has been fit with their very first hearing aid and to see the look of wonder on their faces when they hear clearly for the very first time. It's an amazing thing and reminds me of when I got my first pair of glasses. Without them, I'm legally blind, so to put them on for the first time opened up a whole new world for me. Colors, clarity.. the works. I imagine what I felt then is akin to what someone who is hearing impaired would go through with that auditory wonder.

Wow Bita, I read that as though I had written it. LOL I remember the wonder of finally being able to see what everyone else sees!

It's so amazing watching the children I work with grow as they learn to use their hearing and language skills. You should see how proud they are of their implants when they wear them to school for the first time, and the other children who have implants spontaneously hug them, and "welcome them to the tribe".

Very few children reject their aids/implants. Most quickly assimilate the technology into their 'self' the way those of us with really poor eyesight take to our glasses.

Cin

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/10/2006 10:12:42 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: windy135
Plus they are missing out on nothing really, they can communicate, live, marry, go to school.

Missing nothing? Music? Birdsong? A child's giggle? The sound of the waves on the beach? The whisper of a lover? These things are nothing?

I beg to differ.

Cin

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/10/2006 10:14:57 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: windy135
I would have to disagree I think the benefits from learning both sign and speech out weight the losses.

Perhaps you can list what you see as the benefits of learning both, so I can better see your point.

Cin

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Post #: 24

RE: Deaf Culture - 3/10/2006 10:15:29 PM

windy135

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I agree I love my hearing, but even with cochlear implants and hearing aids they aren't hearing the same sounds you hear. I think I'm coming off wrong because I'm trying to debate here,, but I really do favor the use of aids and such. I guess I'm just trying to portray what someone from the Deaf Culture would say.. lol I'll study up and try to do better :)

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Post #: 25

RE: Deaf Culture - 3/10/2006 10:21:46 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: windy135
Plus they are missing out on nothing really, they can communicate, live, marry, go to school. Some people say that how can they not want to learn to talk. Most deaf people can't learn to speak.. hello!! there deaf. I have met 5 Deaf people that went to oral schools and really didn't like it. They said why try to speak when they can sign? Any thoughts?

When you have a poor understanding (or no understanding) of English, then learning to read, and write English at a college level is going to be pretty close to possible. Literacy rates in non-oral deaf adults is extremely low (estimated at a grade 4/5 level). This causes a problem with finding employment that is gainful, and suited to one's intellectual level.

I wish I had the time tonight to go searching for studies that show these facts, but I would suggest that before you firmly set yourself in once of the deaf education camps you do as much research as you can. It's easy for people to see Total Communication as an obvious answer, but if it was, there would no longer be these camps, and the debate would long be over.

Cin

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/10/2006 10:35:47 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: windy135

I agree I love my hearing, but even with cochlear implants and hearing aids they aren't hearing the same sounds you hear. I think I'm coming off wrong because I'm trying to debate here,, but I really do favor the use of aids and such. I guess I'm just trying to portray what someone from the Deaf Culture would say.. lol I'll study up and try to do better :)

I love a good debate...especially when it's something I'm passionate about.

I would recommend that you read the many books written by Deaf adults, and see where their stance is coming from. The ones I knew were estranged from family (Sadly, siblings, cousins, grandparents and even parents rarely learn to sign...Mom often does...although often no one else...)

As for cochlear implants and hearing aids being a different way of hearing, this is less and less the case as technology improves. My children do hear the birds singing and the wind whistling through the trees and they are just as excited and thrilled by music as hearing children are...

Auditory training is a huge part of an oral program, and even in TC or signing programs that encourage hearing aid use their philosophy places far less importance on noth auditory and speech training. (Most TC programs let the child decide whether they want to work on these areas, and that's like allowing a child to decide if he cares to read books or do math. Some will, some won't...But we insist they do because we see the value to the child in the long term.)

We even have a music therapist on staff, and start everyday off with a group sing-along circle that includes everyone.

Cin

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Post #: 27

RE: Deaf Culture - 3/11/2006 5:09:54 PM

windy135

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Hey everyone I did some reading and I found a persons opinion that pretty much matched my concerns so I'm going to copy and paste it. I'll also leave the address. Just so everyone know's I'm not saying this is the right opinion I thought it would be interesting to post and let us get a different view. Notes to take: this is over ten years old and I know many things have changed including the implant. But do you think that what she say's about how parents are approached has changed?

(Contributed by Katherine C. Morehouse (Casey) [email protected] at 5 Jan 1994.)

"Let me say here briefly that one of the reasons I have such strong opinions against cochlear implants in children, especially prelingually deaf, signing children, is that as an educational audiologist at a school for the deaf, I see and hear from parents constantly about the misinformation that they are given about cochlear implants,the misconceptions that they derive from the information they get, the lack of information that they are given about the deaf community, the tremendous pressure that is put on parents to get cochlear implants for their kids, the tremendous pressure they, in turn, put on their perfectly fine, well adjusted Deaf kids to get implants, the power struggles that are set up by this, between deaf kids and their parents, the kids not wanting to disappoint the parent, and the parent always expecting that "miricle". The anger the kid feels that "My mom not accept me deaf". And dispite what any one will say they tell parents about the pros and cons of cochlear implants, I have yet to meet a parent who was given(by the cochlear implant team) a list of the "failures" to call for opinions. The Deaf adolescents who actively decide to stop using an implant put in when they were 10, --they are never asked to talk to parents, the mother of the kid, whose implant failed due to ossification of the cochlea around the electrodes,---- she has never been asked to speak to perspective parents, the child with the drooping cheek, due to a a damaged facial nerve during the implant surgery, ----she was not on TV or in the newpaper.. I really could go on and on.. but....It seems these parents are given the list of "successes" ( a short list which is used over and over again.,as there are not actually a huge number of kids with these implants...so far) I have yet to meet a parent who was actively introduced to deaf adults, by a cochlear implant team, so that they could hear the other side, Actually, I have yet to meet a member of a cochlear implant team who know more than rudimentary sign language or who has any kind of active relationship with the Deaf community.. That is not to say thaty they are not out there! "

http://www.zak.co.il/deaf-info/old/ci-opinions.html#unfavorable

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Post #: 28

RE: Deaf Culture - 3/11/2006 5:40:19 PM

ownedgirlie

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A very interesting article but to me that speaks to the problem of lack of communication and proper research. If i were to have any child of mine undergo such a life changing procedure i would spend eons doing homework on it, and making absolutely sure my child knew he/she was loved, but this was only a device to increase a function in his/her body which is not currently functioning. There would be endless discussion on it, and the child would be able to express everything he/she feels and thinks on the subject. i would be searching for information that you just came up with, and talking to those in the deaf community to get their opinions.

It is not a decision that should be made lightly. Sitting here in my living room with only partial information on the subject, i can say "Sure, why not? Sounds like a great idea." But i would not move forward with such plans until i had done what i just stated above.

As for missing out on hearing music, ocean waves, children laughing...i agree, my life would be lacking without that. But if i never knew it - - i could not miss it.

It's an interesting debate, no doubt.

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Post #: 29

RE: Deaf Culture - 3/11/2006 6:08:29 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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I have hearing loss and can read lips fairly well and took two semesters of ASL- it's definitely something I take an interest in. In the MD/DC area, there is a very strong deaf kink culture.

I don't know much specifically about cochlear implants, but there are some great options in medicine and technology today that can help a lot of people. If it weren't for all the surgeries and equipment I have in my head right now, I'd definitely be deaf.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 3/11/2006 6:12:15 PM >

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Post #: 30

RE: Deaf Culture - 3/11/2006 8:08:06 PM

slavejali

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Master has a 70% hearing loss, He doesnt do sign language, He reads lips really well. He says that part of the reason He likes 70's music so much is that He can remember it, its hard for him to hear new music.

I dont know about cochlear implants but dont understand why there would be a stigma around it if it helps deaf kids communicate.

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Post #: 31

RE: Deaf Culture - 3/11/2006 9:19:31 PM

windy135

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

I dont know about cochlear implants but dont understand why there would be a stigma around it if it helps deaf kids communicate.

The contraversy arises from members of the Deaf community saying that it's wrong to put a cochlear implant in a child because they can't make up the decision themselves. They believe that when the child is older and can make the decision for themselves then it's ok, but they should have that option. From a speech and audiology perspective the childs first years are crucial in their language development that's why professionals in the field say get the implant right away. It's an interesting debate and I can relate to both sides, athough I favor the implant with total communication.

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Post #: 32

RE: Deaf Culture - 3/12/2006 8:50:14 AM

windy135

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

A very interesting article but to me that speaks to the problem of lack of communication and proper research. If i were to have any child of mine undergo such a life changing procedure i would spend eons doing homework on it, and making absolutely sure my child knew he/she was loved, but this was only a device to increase a function in his/her body which is not currently functioning. There would be endless discussion on it, and the child would be able to express everything he/she feels and thinks on the subject. i would be searching for information that you just came up with, and talking to those in the deaf community to get their opinions.

It is not a decision that should be made lightly. Sitting here in my living room with only partial information on the subject, i can say "Sure, why not? Sounds like a great idea." But i would not move forward with such plans until i had done what i just stated above.

As for missing out on hearing music, ocean waves, children laughing...i agree, my life would be lacking without that. But if i never knew it - - i could not miss it.

It's an interesting debate, no doubt.

That's a great way to look at it. Good post and I would agree with you. Sadly a lot of parents I think panic and think, "ok how do I fix this and make my child normal again" which is a very reasonable way to react. My worry is that because of the oral only approach used in the years past, that parents are not only not educated on Deaf culture but persuaded to never use ASL. Is this the case always of course not.. But I worry it happens to often.

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Post #: 33

RE: Deaf Culture - 3/12/2006 8:54:35 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

My worry is that because of the oral only approach used in the years past, that parents are not only not educated on Deaf culture but persuaded to never use ASL. Is this the case always of course not.. But I worry it happens to often.

i would agree with you. It is easier on the FAMILY to force the child to learn speech only. It is not, in my opinion, in the best interest of the child. But then i am a believer that limiting one's skills and knowledge to what feels safe is never ideal.

Hard to have a "debate" when we are all in agreement!!! However, it is a great subject to discuss and i'm glad you brought it up.

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Post #: 34

RE: Deaf Culture - 3/12/2006 7:59:18 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: windy135
The contraversy arises from members of the Deaf community saying that it's wrong to put a cochlear implant in a child because they can't make up the decision themselves. They believe that when the child is older and can make the decision for themselves then it's ok, but they should have that option.

A child is not capable of making most decisions that impact his education and future. If my parents had waited until I was old enough to decide whether I wanted to wear glasses I would have spent many years in school struggling. It's a parent duty to make these kinds of decisons, no matter how difficult a decision may be.

As for waiting...well, as I stated before, the auditory nerves do atrophy, so it's ideal to implant as early as possible.

Children learn faster and easier than adults. They adapt beautifully, and take the new device in their stride with little or no stress, I say this from firsthand experience. In 16 years I have only seen one child not take well to their implant, and that was a medical issue. (I have never once seen a case of facial nerve damage, although yes, this is consider a possibility...I've yet to even hear of one.)

I think when you have seen the successes I have seen, then you have no doubt that implants are a wonderful option.

Cin

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/12/2006 8:04:48 PM

slavejali

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Whichever way I look at it, a lossof one of the senses impedes communication..and we live in a world of communication.

With all my late husband endured medically, it was when his eyesight was lost that effected his will to live...he died a short time later.

With Master, I know how incredibly frustrating it is for him not be able to be involved in group conversations, missing jokes that people tell, having to get me to repeat what I said multiple times. I would imagine it would be a very lonely place to live in.

I think personally, if there is a way for children who are deaf to communicate more effectively within a social normal environment then people should embrace the idea. Thats what adults do, make choices for children, its their role.

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Post #: 36

RE: Deaf Culture - 3/12/2006 8:09:57 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali
With Master, I know how incredibly frustrating it is for him not be able to be involved in group conversations, missing jokes that people tell, having to get me to repeat what I said multiple times. I would imagine it would be a very lonely place to live in.

I think personally, if there is a way for children who are deaf to communicate more effectively within a social normal environment then people should embrace the idea. Thats what adults do, make choices for children, its their role.

Exactly, one thing I noticed with my deaf signing friends was that it was one thing to have a conversation with them one-on-one, but when they were in a group situation, they became pretty dependant on me, as an interpreter and mediator. It was frustrating for them, and very hard on me, as well.

Again, I have to stress that being able to communicate in the language of your friends, family and countrymen, is of vital importance to success and happiness.

Cin

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Post #: 37

RE: Deaf Culture - 3/12/2006 8:16:42 PM

quietkitten

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cochlear implants do not restore hearing...

They process and then send sound signals to the brain directly, and the results are different for each person. The bottom line is that they hear "something" which they must then learn to interpret as sound.
Getting one of these implants in no way guarantees that a person will be able to hear a child's giggle or a song....

I have two friends that have received them and they are firmly split. One hates it... the other loves it.

edited because I cant spell worth a darn

< Message edited by quietkitten -- 3/12/2006 8:20:19 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Deaf Culture - 3/12/2006 9:35:49 PM

windy135

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Good points everyone. I see everyone saying well it's easier to communicate to learn to speak. But Deaf people might say, we can communicate in OUR language ASL. It's just like any other language out there. Plus most Deaf people know a little English and can write. They are proud to sign and they DON'T care that they can't hear the things we hear. Plainly they don't care! They love their language they love their friends and family and their cultural differences.

I'm for cochlear implants used on children only because I know that it's important for langauge development. But I think every child who gets one should have to learn ASL also. I also don't think you would have to force them I think they would enjoy it.

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Post #: 39

RE: Deaf Culture - 3/12/2006 10:00:37 PM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

Whichever way I look at it, a lossof one of the senses impedes communication..and we live in a world of communication.

With all my late husband endured medically, it was when his eyesight was lost that effected his will to live...he died a short time later.

With Master, I know how incredibly frustrating it is for him not be able to be involved in group conversations, missing jokes that people tell, having to get me to repeat what I said multiple times. I would imagine it would be a very lonely place to live in.

I think personally, if there is a way for children who are deaf to communicate more effectively within a social normal environment then people should embrace the idea. Thats what adults do, make choices for children, its their role.

I recall a quote that went something like this "being blind separates you from things; being deaf separates you from people."

Both would be pretty devastating for me

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