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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/12/2006 10:42:17 PM

slavejali

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quote:

being deaf separates you from people."

Master says something similar Sir, He says "Imagine what its like to be in a room full of people yet be all alone."

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/12/2006 11:10:06 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: quietkitten
I have two friends that have received them and they are firmly split. One hates it... the other loves it.

Were they implanted as children, or as adults? Were they deaf before aquiring language or after, say, the age of 4 or 5? All these are important factors. A properly functioning implant and appropriate habilitation should result in a child hearing all the sounds a hearing child does. An adult being implanted is a different story.

That's why it's important that implantation happen as young as possible, and auditory-verbal therapy (the focus of oral education) be employed to ensure a happy success story.

Cin

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/12/2006 11:13:50 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
I recall a quote that went something like this "being blind separates you from things; being deaf separates you from people."

Both would be pretty devastating for me

Yes, Helen Keller said this. She was an amazing woman.

Cin

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/12/2006 11:21:47 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: windy135
I'm for cochlear implants used on children only because I know that it's important for langauge development. But I think every child who gets one should have to learn ASL also. I also don't think you would have to force them I think they would enjoy it.

The problem is, children receiving implants need appropriate habilitation in order to learn to get the most from the technology. Oral Education, by heavily focusing on audio-verbal therapies, really allows for that to happen.

Again, it's an immersion situation. The more a child focuses on spoken language and hearing, the sooner they close the communication gap. It's not about fun, or leaving all the options open...It's about making a commited and serious decision that will impact your child's LIFE forever.

By the way, oral deaf children do not hate their implants or hearing aids...they love them, and they are not happy when batteries fail, or something goes wrong. They love to hear...and that's something the Deaf culture doesn't understand, because most haven't had the opportunity to hear, or have had bad experiences, as so many people who were sent to residential schools did.

Cin

< Message edited by Vancouver_cinful -- 3/12/2006 11:23:32 PM >

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/13/2006 4:54:48 AM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

quote:

being deaf separates you from people."

Master says something similar Sir, He says "Imagine what its like to be in a room full of people yet be all alone."

[cynical laugh] I don't have to imagine. While I'm not clinically deaf, I was entertained a few times too many by the North Vietnamese Mortar and Artillery Chorus. Background noise just shuts down my ability to hear voices. I tend to sit and nod...(It's got me into some interesting situations)

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/13/2006 5:11:51 AM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
I recall a quote that went something like this "being blind separates you from things; being deaf separates you from people."

Both would be pretty devastating for me

Yes, Helen Keller said this. She was an amazing woman.

Cin

Thank you, the name had escaped me.

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/13/2006 6:17:06 AM

windy135

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

quote:

being deaf separates you from people."

Master says something similar Sir, He says "Imagine what its like to be in a room full of people yet be all alone."

Deaf culture actually has a name for this.. hmmm I think it's the dinning room syndrome or something alont those lines. My thoughts are if you know someone who is Deaf and they are a part of your life you should know sign if that's what they use. It only makes sense. It's rare when a Deaf person will have to sit down with a group of hearing people and not bring or have someone to converse with. I'm just taking the view of the Deaf person. They don't want people to feel sorry for them.

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/13/2006 6:25:07 AM

windy135

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

The problem is, children receiving implants need appropriate habilitation in order to learn to get the most from the technology. Oral Education, by heavily focusing on audio-verbal therapies, really allows for that to happen.

Again, it's an immersion situation. The more a child focuses on spoken language and hearing, the sooner they close the communication gap. It's not about fun, or leaving all the options open...It's about making a commited and serious decision that will impact your child's LIFE forever.

By the way, oral deaf children do not hate their implants or hearing aids...they love them, and they are not happy when batteries fail, or something goes wrong. They love to hear...and that's something the Deaf culture doesn't understand, because most haven't had the opportunity to hear, or have had bad experiences, as so many people who were sent to residential schools did.

Cin

I know two Deaf people who were giving hearing aids and implants. NOT all kids like them. As adults these two people came to hate them because they didn't help. One person could hear some sounds but just didn't like the hearing aids. I would be interested in finding real clinical research that says learning sign language would inhibit a child’s speech. I just have not found any real evidence that this is the case. If the child is wearing their implant or aid they are getting the auditory input needed to stimulate their auditory nerve and keep it working. My nephew was given both options at a very young age. He was visited by a speech language pathologist and a teacher of sign. His speech is wonderful I'm really surprised because he has a bilateral serve/profound hearing loss in the mid to high frequencies.

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/13/2006 8:11:26 AM

ownedgirlie

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i think in many cases it is assumed the child is not learning to read lips or being taught speech, and therefore they are indeed limited.

i don't think anyone was saying that ASL inhibits speech. i think the argument has been: Why limit methods of communication? Doesn't it limit their future and what they can do for a living, to be unable to hear and converse with their fellow citizenry?

i don't think anyone here is against teaching speech or signing.

i have heard about the issues with the implants. But i hear technology is advancing and improving. Could it be possible that some day these implants allow for near perfect hearing?

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/13/2006 12:13:49 PM

windy135

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

i think in many cases it is assumed the child is not learning to read lips or being taught speech, and therefore they are indeed limited.

i don't think anyone was saying that ASL inhibits speech. i think the argument has been: Why limit methods of communication? Doesn't it limit their future and what they can do for a living, to be unable to hear and converse with their fellow citizenry?

i don't think anyone here is against teaching speech or signing.

i have heard about the issues with the implants. But i hear technology is advancing and improving. Could it be possible that some day these implants allow for near perfect hearing?

Actually there is the "oral only approach". This means no signing is allowed at all. In the past at deaf schools children would be punished for using any type of sign to communicate. Alexander Graham Bell was the founder of such an approach. It was wide spread and still is in Europe. Here is some information from a book called “For Hearing People Only”.

This is a book written by Deaf individuals so I believe it to be biased but it will allow us to see their point of view. “After a brief “golden age” (1830s-1860s), ASL-based Deaf education came under attack from Alexander Graham Bell and other wealthy and powerful oralists. The oral movement in the States had emerged during the 1860s, and the Milian Congress of the 1880 gave it added impetus. Bell, who founded the American Association to Promote the Teaching of Speech to the Deaf (now called the Alexander Graham Bell Association for the Deaf) was the leading oral advocate. …… According to Gallaudet University historians John Van Cleve and Barry Crouch, “Bell believed that deafness was a terrible curse… a pathological aberration [that] perpetuated negative genetic traits. ..that deaf persons weakened the society in which they lived. After studying records of several schools for the deaf, he compiled his notorious paper, Memoir Upon the Formation of a Deaf Variety of the Human Race (1883). He desired to put a stop to the “alarming” growth of Deaf culture and prevent deaf children from being born. Accordingly, he proposed legislation against “the intermarriage of congenital deaf mutes”: eliminating residential schools, forbidding the use of sign language in the education of deaf pupils, and prohibiting deaf adults from being teachers of deaf children. His proposals almost succeeded.” Book goes on to say “Bell wasn’t directly responsible for all of this oppression but he was an advocate, he paved the way”.

I obviously now that oralist are not to this extreme. But what do you guys thing about this?

< Message edited by windy135 -- 3/13/2006 12:14:43 PM >

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/13/2006 12:30:55 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: windy135
It's rare when a Deaf person will have to sit down with a group of hearing people and not bring or have someone to converse with. I'm just taking the view of the Deaf person. They don't want people to feel sorry for them.

When you have spent time with a signing deaf adult who can not function in a group situation, you will understand that it's much more than an inconvenience. It's isolation. My deaf friends often felt left out or ignored at social events, and would stand beside me through the whole evening, asking for clarification, or just attention, because they could not follow what was going on. They were highly dependant on me, and as much as I liked them, it strained our friendship. In time, I no longer invited them to events because I couldn't enjoy the event, and see to their needs, as well.

I'm not talking about one signing deaf friend, at one time I knew about 10, and all of them had the same challenges when socializing with hearing people.

By saying it's rare that signing deaf people would have to attend meetings, family reunions, dinner parties, that include hearing people, then you are saying that they are not missing out on anything if they just have one-on-one social interactions. You are saying that employers won't mind if they don't attend meetings or sit on committees, or are thrilled to pay for interpreters...this isn't how it works.

Most signing deaf adults are under-employed, and have no choice but to socialize with the Deaf community in their town for social needs. Kind of narrows down the dating field too. How many people will rush out to learn sign language just because they met a nice deaf person at a munch, for example?

Cin

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/13/2006 1:19:32 PM

windy135

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

quote:

ORIGINAL: windy135
It's rare when a Deaf person will have to sit down with a group of hearing people and not bring or have someone to converse with. I'm just taking the view of the Deaf person. They don't want people to feel sorry for them.

When you have spent time with a signing deaf adult who can not function in a group situation, you will understand that it's much more than an inconvenience. It's isolation. My deaf friends often felt left out or ignored at social events, and would stand beside me through the whole evening, asking for clarification, or just attention, because they could not follow what was going on. They were highly dependant on me, and as much as I liked them, it strained our friendship. In time, I no longer invited them to events because I couldn't enjoy the event, and see to their needs, as well.

I'm not talking about one signing deaf friend, at one time I knew about 10, and all of them had the same challenges when socializing with hearing people.

By saying it's rare that signing deaf people would have to attend meetings, family reunions, dinner parties, that include hearing people, then you are saying that they are not missing out on anything if they just have one-on-one social interactions. You are saying that employers won't mind if they don't attend meetings or sit on committees, or are thrilled to pay for interpreters...this isn't how it works.

Most signing deaf adults are under-employed, and have no choice but to socialize with the Deaf community in their town for social needs. Kind of narrows down the dating field too. How many people will rush out to learn sign language just because they met a nice deaf person at a munch, for example?

Cin

Cin good point very true. But setting up a person with a hearing aid device and teaching them speech doesn't solve the problem of group discussion. We both know that hearing aids amplify all sound so it's diffucult for a deaf adult to follow group discussion even if they wear and aid and can speak.

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/13/2006 3:04:11 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: windy135
But setting up a person with a hearing aid device and teaching them speech doesn't solve the problem of group discussion. We both know that hearing aids amplify all sound so it's diffucult for a deaf adult to follow group discussion even if they wear and aid and can speak.

In the earlier days of assistive hearing devices this was definitely true. But technology has come a long way. Another argument for the oral approach is that we focus on listening skills and especially in how to listen in real environments, such as classrooms, and social situations.

The focus of oral education is to get deaf children ready to mainstream into their regular community school as early as kindergarten or grade one. We work hard to ensure that both academically, and socially, our kids will be prepared to thrive in their neighbourhood schools alongside their siblings and peers.

Cin

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/13/2006 3:17:32 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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I feel I have said as much as I can say on this issue. It just becomes a circular discussion, and far too complex for this forum, I feel.

16 years of experience in a province that has 3 programs for the deaf (oral, manual, TC) has convinced me that oralism is the best approach for most deaf children.

The issues of Deaf culture are very much coloured by the pain of residential schooling, and social isolation, and I have seen nothing yet to support their belief that a deaf child is better off in a small isolated signing community when there is a chance that they can integrate 100% into the larger community by being given a chance to truly become oral communicators in their native language.

My suggestion is that you make sure you truly understand all three approaches before deciding for yourself.

By the way, if I really believed TC was the answer I would not still be involved in oralism. I love sign language, and I miss using it, sometimes. I have had more than one opportunity to work at the other programs, but the success stories I have been a part of since 1990, have made me a passionate supporter of oralism.

Thanks for the interesting discussion...feel free to email me for more info.

Cin

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/13/2006 6:46:19 PM

Cloudz

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Bita,

Has your "Himself" worked much with people who suffer hearing loss due to Meneire's Disease?

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/13/2006 6:49:04 PM

Cloudz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

I am thankful that the Deaf community exists to support those who are not oral, but I have yet to be convinced that they are of greater value than an individual having the ability to interact independantly within the greater community of family and country.

i agree with this. The broader one's thinking, the broader one's ability to communicate, the more exposure to cultures, the more education one can receive....the better. How can it not be?

I cannot remember the name of the book, but there was a community on Martha's Vineyard that due to a genetic reason, if I am remembering correctly, many of the people in the community were deaf. It was common practice for even people who were able to hear to use speech and sign simultenously (spelling, sorry). At any rate it was a fascinating read.

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/13/2006 8:20:32 PM

windy135

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Cloudz,, you are correct it's a historic land mark for Deaf culture. Everyone knew the sign language in the island. Actually ASL is a combination between the sign used on Matha's Vineyard and French sign. Although it isn't correct to use speech and ASL at the same time because they are different laguages and it's impossible. I also found what I learned about this interesting. :)

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RE: Deaf Culture - 3/13/2006 10:12:31 PM

ownedgirlie

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I cannot remember the name of the book, but there was a community on Martha's Vineyard that due to a genetic reason, if I am remembering correctly, many of the people in the community were deaf. It was common practice for even people who were able to hear to use speech and sign simultenously (spelling, sorry). At any rate it was a fascinating read.

That's why i took an ASL class. i just wanted to know it. No one deaf in my family. Just thought it would be a good thing to know. One of my sisters in law knows it; she works special ed. It just looked like a beautiful language.

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