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Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 7:50:57 AM

RCdc

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OriontheWolf posted -

quote:

Now do not forget that Jesus did not change anything, he merely fullfilled and clarified things. Also, take into account that he is actually not the most influentual person that had a bearing on how the bible was written, or translated.

Now, I would disagree that Jesus did not change anything. The very fact he 'existed' means that christianity exists. So there was a change. I would be interested in others opinions. Now whilst I get that there will be non christian responses with the usual 'it's just a story' slant that I really do understand - I'm not looking for authentication. I am interested in ideas that surround what myth or reality (you work with what you believe) of Jesus examples - brought change.

Now, I am also interested in the idea that Jesus was not the most influential person on the writings and translations. Who do you believe were, who were they and why do you believe it?

Thanks in advance.
the.dark.

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 8:53:02 AM

Hierodule

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Well Let me first clarify I AM NOT CHRISTIAN. I don't believe in an historical Jesus. All my post here and in the death penalty thread are based on religious study that I went through in private school. I did very well in this religious study and know quite a bit about the the faith I was raised in and their interpretation of the bible. I don't hold these lessons dear or believe them to be true. I don't support or oppose the death penalty I don't know how I feel, but I know exactly where my old church officially stands on the matter and what passages from the bible, and philosophical arguments they use to back up their position. Therefore I feel that Christians have a lot to look at if they do support the death penalty. I accept that different sects interpret the bible differently. But to claim one is right over another is pointless. Interpreting the bible or any text for that matter, is highly subjective.

That being said within my religious education we were taught that Jesus did change things. One thing he did away with was the need for animal sacrifice. He was the lamb of God. The ultimate sacrifice.

the passage that is often used to illustrate this, Matthew 27:51, is very vague:

"and lo, the veil of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks were rent"

ok this is usually interpreted thusly

"[3] veil The veil which was rent was the veil which divided the holy place into which the priests entered from the holy of holies into which only the high priest might enter on the day of atonement, See Scofield Note: "Ex 26:31" Lev 16:1-30 The rending of that veil, which was a type of the human body of Christ Heb 10:20 signified that a "new and living way" was opened for all believers into the very presence of God with no other sacrifice or priesthood save Christ's. (cf) Heb 9:1-8 10:19-22." -Scofield refference notes

Again this is highly subjective. Other sources have used this same, simple passage to illustrate God's hatred of the Jewish race. Trying to find truth in the bible is like dream interpretation. It means different things to different people. And no one is "right."

(in reply to RCdc)

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 8:58:07 AM

Hierodule

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ok that was too short of a passage I forget that many people don't read the bible and have no idea when the veil was split. Let me put it into context (slightly different translation):

46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "(BC)ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" 47And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah." 48(BD)Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.
9But the rest of them said, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him[c]." 50And Jesus (BE)cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51(BF)And behold, (BG)the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and (BH)the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had (BI)fallen asleep were raised; 53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered (BJ)the holy city and appeared to many.

(in reply to Hierodule)

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 9:01:14 AM

Hierodule

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same passage from Young's Litteral Translation for all of you translation whores out there

46and about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a great voice, saying, `Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, `My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?' 47And certain of those standing there having heard, said -- `Elijah he doth call;' 48and immediately, one of them having run, and having taken a spunge, having filled [it] with vinegar, and having put [it] on a reed, was giving him to drink, 49but the rest said, `Let alone, let us see if Elijah doth come -- about to save him.' 50And Jesus having again cried with a great voice, yielded the spirit; 51and lo, the vail of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks were rent, 52and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose, 53and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many.

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 9:24:29 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Now, I am also interested in the idea that Jesus was not the most influential person on the writings and translations. Who do you believe were, who were they and why do you believe it?

I'll leave the rest alone as I don't believe but I have looked into the history of the NT and I don't think you will find any scholar not wedded to biblical inerrancy that believes that there is a single accurate quotation of the historical jesus anywhere in those books.

For instance the sermon on the mount, or the similiar sermon on the plain from Luke, is strikingly similiar to a sermon by Buddha, not coincidentally buddhist missionaries were in the near east and greece when the Q document (forerunner of the synoptic gospels) was probably written.

In examining the NT it is quite striking that so much of it is the epistles of early church leaders none of whom, based on the dating of the epistles and the historical claims contained, were contemporaries of Jesus.

I think it is safe to say that there was a historical Jesus. From what we know of the era and the commonalities between the various stories it seems likely he was a revolutionary and probably a leader of a messianic cult. Somehow this cult became a fairly standard mystery cult of the era (virgin birth, fish and the loaves, water into wine, walking on water etc.) which led to what we have now.

(in reply to RCdc)

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 9:40:45 AM

AnimusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
Trying to find truth in the bible is like dream interpretation. It means different things to different people. And no one is "right."

The Jesuits used to have a saying: "Give me the boy, I will give you the man." Or woman, in this case. They did their job pretty well, I would say.

The Bible is in fact a very flexible, oblique document, open to multiple readings and shadings. This is why I am always skeptical f those who pluck passages out to prove something that is intuitively horrific, like slavery or the burning of witches.

There has to be some cross checking of Scripture with our own intuitive sense of goodness, that inner being that we all have that recoils at violence and cruelty and unfairness.
This is why I can't get with the notion that everything we need to know can be found in Scripture; It can only be a starting place, and we are assigned the task of improving ourselves, of making spiritual progress through reason, experience, and faith.

So not only did Jesus alter things, but all the theologians, philosphers and laypeople who followed him have constructed our modern framework of ethics.

(in reply to Hierodule)

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 9:48:39 AM

kdsub

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I am hesitant to comment...lol... afraid I have missed what you are looking for again but what the hell... I am not being specific on Biblical text before and after but trying to explain why and how Christianity was established.

I’m thinking more in the political sense…Man has doubted God from the very beginning. Always wanting proof of his existence. This often manifests itself in the desire for a profit or messiah with proof of the existence of God.

There were those before Jesus but they only influenced a very small insignificant part of the world. Then came Jesus with his group of followers and disciples.

His appearance story and disciples sparked the imagination and filled a need for spiritual fulfillment of one of the greatest, most powerful, influential, and wide spread civilization of all history… The Roman Empire.

As we know those with power alter and shape history. Jesus became the base or center for this new religion that is still influencing the world today.

Now was this Gods design and wishes or happenstance? Again only faith or lack of it will answer that question.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/13/2009 9:50:14 AM >

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 10:10:04 AM

eyesopened

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I do believe there was a historical Jesus, for the simple reason that is was in no way in anyone's best interest to invent a figurehead for religious and political change. I do not, however, believe Jesus was born divine or was a supernatural being.

I do think the important thing Jesus did (which is totally lost on Christians) was to demonstrate the importance of questioning religious doctrine, practices, and to not blindly accept as truth anything and everything that comes out of the mouths of religious leaders. The message I see Jesus providing is the greater importance of looking to oneself for personal doctrine and accountability for personal actions. Jesus taught love. Christians practice hate. At least that has been my experience.

< Message edited by eyesopened -- 11/13/2009 10:53:50 AM >

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 10:20:04 AM

Hierodule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

The Jesuits used to have a saying: "Give me the boy, I will give you the man." Or woman, in this case. They did their job pretty well, I would say.

Thanks You for the compliment. I wouldn't say my Catholic School education was the only or the main thing that led me to where I am. Looking back on it now, I was really lucky in my religious exposure as a child. Raised for the first 13 years of my life by my Grandmother, an intelligent woman who, as a housewife, spent years educating herself about her religion, she was a liturgist, the lay person who reads at mass. She was constantly reading the writings of her favorite Saints (Augustine and Theresa of Avila) and meditating on Jesus, Mary, and all the Saints. Then I was abruptly removed from that household and moved in with my mother who was SUPER permissive and a little batty. She flew from religion to religion like a butterfly. When I first moved in with her she was a member of the self realization fellowship, then she got into Goddess worship, later she joined the "Church" of Scientology and the last I talked to her she was attending the pre-Vatican II Tridentine Latin Mass Congregation in my home town and wears a mantilla on Sunday. So I became skeptical for many reasons.

< Message edited by Hierodule -- 11/13/2009 11:15:29 AM >

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 10:36:53 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I do not, however, believe Jesus was born devine

Thank goodness, or Opie might be a descendant,

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 12:06:51 PM

Mercnbeth

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~ Fast Reply ~

"Jesus" was created, and recreated over time, in the image and likeness of people seeking to use him for their political agenda. Whether the man Jesus altered anything can never be determined. However its impossible to deny that the image and press about the man has been influential.

Jesus is used, positively and negatively, based upon the agenda of the people using his press kit and the perspective of those who evaluate the use and consequence. I wish there were some way to tally how many have been killed in the name of Jesus and see if it equals how many have been 'saved'.

But don't get me wrong. If not Jesus, some other name would take his place. Power needs a focus of justification to get the masses to behave. Humans require belief to function, especially when they are less evolved. When rational and pragmatic human thought concludes that work, struggling, and simple existence makes no sense; or death, misery, and problems seem overwhelming; Jesus, as he's portrayed, provides a beacon to struggle on and accept 'god's will, as he did getting crucified. Crucified, mind you, not for what he did - but because of YOU!

Jesus! When I think of all the artwork we saw in Rome a week ago - how can it ever be represented that Jesus didn't alter anything!

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 11/13/2009 12:10:43 PM >

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 1:12:04 PM

Moonhead

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Marx, Engels, Kropotkin and Bukanin seem to have done more to put a lot of Christ's notions into action since than any Christian saints.

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 4:07:25 PM

breatheasone

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Yes! Jesus changed everything. He spoke and the very existence of time and space came to be. His shed blood on the cross means, if we trust in Him, we can be saved from the bondage of sin and death. So yeah....He's the Man! (and GOD!

)

i realize there are some that don't agree with this, and thats your choice.

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 8:36:14 PM

littlewonder

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Jesus was a very devout Jewish man who took the Tanakh and fulfilled it feeling a calling to do so by God due to the fact that he probably had been told from a very young age that he was of the Davidic line and felt a dislike for the Pharisees.

I don't know that it was Jesus who brought about the large change but his Apostles who may have used him to bring about such changes that we see today.

I don't believe that this was quite what Jesus had in mind. I don't think he had any desire for a new religion, only to stop the corruption of what he saw was happening to his own religion of Judaism in that time.

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/13/2009 9:00:05 PM

OrionTheWolf

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The area of Matthew that was being discussed, is where Jesus clarifies that it is not just the deed, but the intent that is important. He states that he is not there to change any of the laws or the teachings of the profits. He calls out the Pharisees on what they have done, using technicalities to determine right and wrong, but disregarding intent. He pretty much goes through several of the major laws, and clarifies them for their intent. He does not change any of those laws.

That is what my comment was about. Anyone being born changes the world, if even a little.

To clarify even further, look into when the NT was actually written and put into cannon. The process by which it was done, and how much that was left out, that until that time had been included. Then look into the "Last" apostle, Paul, digging deeply into historical accounts of who Paul was. Then after all of that, ask yourself why ever would the God of Abraham give commands that are impossible to follow. Once you come to this area, turn right at the translations and start looking more to the metaphore, context and audience each sermon was held in.

Paul has more of an impact on modern Christianity, than the teachings of Jesus, and sorry but Paul is not always echoing what Jesus taught. In fact Hebrews and a few other books would be considered heretical, based upon the primitive Christian teachings, so if Paul is to be kept in te fold and his authority recognized, certain things must change.

And poor Peter, who is the foundation of the church, the one that was supposed to inherit the "church" was left where, doing what?

Modern rationalizations of the primitive text are done so that more people can be drawn to a religion, that was never actually meant for the gentiles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

OriontheWolf posted -

quote:

Now do not forget that Jesus did not change anything, he merely fullfilled and clarified things. Also, take into account that he is actually not the most influentual person that had a bearing on how the bible was written, or translated.

Now, I would disagree that Jesus did not change anything. The very fact he 'existed' means that christianity exists. So there was a change. I would be interested in others opinions. Now whilst I get that there will be non christian responses with the usual 'it's just a story' slant that I really do understand - I'm not looking for authentication. I am interested in ideas that surround what myth or reality (you work with what you believe) of Jesus examples - brought change.

Now, I am also interested in the idea that Jesus was not the most influential person on the writings and translations. Who do you believe were, who were they and why do you believe it?

Thanks in advance.
the.dark.

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/14/2009 7:25:46 AM

LadyEllen

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The problem with attributing anything to Jesus is that - apart from questions regarding his actual existence which are not altogether that relevant in the context of such a discussion - it is difficult to attribute anything very much to him and to him alone. It has already been mentioned that his parables have direct correspondences with parables told by Gautama Buddha some centuries previous and it has also been mentioned that his origins, nature, life, death and resurrection are all to be found in identical forms in the other mystery religions of the Mediterranean at the time, some of which were already very old at that time.

The only real differences in Jesus, as compared to others, can be attributed to the particular Jewish culture in which his story takes place. As such, as a neutral observer one might venture that Jesus innovated only in attempting in some fashion to fuse together the Buddhist influences at that time present in the Middle East with the dominant mystery religions of the Roman Empire and his own Jewish culture. But then, a neutral observer might conclude almost anything from the recipe presented and there are many more factors than the three mentioned present in that recipe.

St Paul if anyone is the person who changed the world, based on his understanding of what Jesus was about - which may or more probably may not be an accurate understanding.

Still, none of these arguments matter very much in the greater picture of a message which, whilst certainly not new or innovative in any way and with all its inherent confusions and apparent confabulations, has gone on to dominate the world. The message is a simple one and a very effective one, taking its efficacy from a personal psychological manipulation or through God's grace as one might prefer to think, it works for those who believe in a spectacular fashion.

The real problem with Christianity is not this central, age old message at its core but the willingness of mankind to ignore it and instead rely on peripheral material to it, to justify his own selfishness; the same selfishness which Jesus apparently taught was to be sacrificed.

E

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/14/2009 8:22:15 AM

housesub4you

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here is the problem I have with everything religious,

it was all written a very long time ago and people take it as fact. As Dennis Leary pointed out, there are at least 15 cook books based on Elvis's favorite meals, all are different and the actual people that cooked for Elvis are still alive. But people still look for what they want to believe was Elvis's favorite meal, not facts.

So we can't even agree on what Elvis liked and those people are still alive, yet way to many religions claim to know the true meaning of life, bible etc.... and countless war and millions have died because of it.

So no I don't believe Jesus personally altered anything, just the people who followed him and decided what he stood for and where willing to kill all who disagreed.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/14/2009 8:33:25 AM

Aneirin

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I never got past the bit where Jesus was supposed to be against organised religion.

I wonder if that was the reason he became amongst us, to rid the organised, and often corrupt relgio centred organisations and man's apparent need to have them.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 11/14/2009 8:34:08 AM >

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/14/2009 8:36:17 AM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

here is the problem I have with everything religious,

it was all written a very long time ago and people take it as fact. As Dennis Leary pointed out, there are at least 15 cook books based on Elvis's favorite meals, all are different and the actual people that cooked for Elvis are still alive. But people still look for what they want to believe was Elvis's favorite meal, not facts.

So we can't even agree on what Elvis liked and those people are still alive, yet way to many religions claim to know the true meaning of life, bible etc.... and countless war and millions have died because of it.

So no I don't believe Jesus personally altered anything, just the people who followed him and decided what he stood for and where willing to kill all who disagreed.

Are you sure that you do not mean Penn & Teller and not Dennis Leary?

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RE: Did Jesus alter anything and who else did? - 11/14/2009 8:38:59 AM

Raiikun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I never got past the bit where Jesus was supposed to be against organised religion.

It wasn't organized religion Jesus was against really. He participated himself.

(in reply to Aneirin)

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