RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five!

RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:02:49 PM)
It seems to me you made a case for the Supreme Court, or at least some Federal Court to adjudicate this case. I think, so far, they are planning to do this in a NY State Court. Is that right? I also remember that there is already a motion pending on behalf of Khalid, to challenge under habeus corpus, already given the go ahead by the Supreme Court. quote: Therefore, for Miranda to apply six factors must be present: Evidence must have been gathered. The evidence must be testimonial The evidence must have been obtained while the suspect was in custody The evidence must have been the product of interrogation. The interrogation must have been conducted by state-agents. The evidence must be offered by the state during a criminal prosecution. Wouldn't you love to play that hand defending these accused? I've read that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is planning on acting as his own attorney. What evidence do you think will be provided that is outside those six conditions that won't disclose the inner workings, and confidential informants on the payroll, of US Security agencies? BTW - Do you, or anyone, know what specific criminal statues the accused will be indited? I tried to find any definitive reference and couldn't find one. PS - Forgot to say thanks for providing the perspective behind your response.

luckydawg -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:04:33 PM)
Who committed a crime in New York? The planning was done in a variety of other countries. The people who commited crimes in NYC are all dead. They were suicide attackers. You can't try a suicide bomber after he has killed himself. The UCMJ quote you posted has no bearing to these folks, they are not personell of the the US armed forces. The traitor scum who opened fire our troops recently will, as he is in our army. If they ever answered a question regarding the crimes, they should have been mirandized (if we want to pretend they simply committed normal criminal acts) "Due process" either means something or it doesn't.

mnottertail -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:14:25 PM)
nope, I am unable to find out charges either, ( I wanna know goddammit!!!!) but there are all sorts of laws that can be used to seal the testimony of witnesses from prying eyes or ears. When he comes into the court, he may get a limited proffering of habeas corpus. He may get the whole schmeer........he wont get the details of who or how, that is not part of disclosure....they show him and binLauden doing the backstreet boogie in an Al Jezeera brothel with one another, they got place.....they don't have to disclose who snapped the pic, the US of fucking A is the accuser. Regarding the undercovers, a deal could be struck to haul in a deskjockey analyst to summarize and enhance the testimony of the down and dirty boys. Like I say, that's why I think they are holding this in New York to dot is and cross ts in the legal system and our constitution. I think the voiceboxes, neckties, and all the legal scholars of the government or accessible to the government have worked hard and long on this, and I am not looking to be surprised here. Ron

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:24:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail When did you call for the invasion of Isreal, Lebanon, North Korea, Turkey, Morroco, Armenia, Sudan, Cypress and Indonesia, with your fairmindedness? That's fucking lame. Regardless of Resolutions violations, there was no call for military intervention from the UN, we invaded Iraq without cause, and for no reason whatsoever, other than lies from Bush, and once they were found to be lies you supported that shit and all criminal acts arising from it. The resolution violations of those nations are not threats to us. Saddam was. Big difference. There were no lies from Bush, and repeating that lie over and over again doesnt make it true.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:26:17 PM)
Merc, re "However I've yet to see a response to the questions. How does a trial in US criminal court occur when the accused was never Mirandized and/or questioned without legal representation? " My understanding is that KSM at least was Mirandized before being questioned at Gitmo. Whether that will stand up, who knows.

luckydawg -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:30:50 PM)
"Regarding the undercovers, a deal could be struck to haul in a deskjockey analyst to summarize and enhance the testimony of the down and dirty boys. " No that would be hearsay and completely inadmissable. Your photot example is nopnsense also. I assume backstreet boogie in a brothel means they were "butt fucking"? That might be a crime in Afghanistan, but not here, and in no way proves he did anything against the US. The photo will have to be proved to be real, and how it was obtained has to be disclosed. THe 6th amendment applies here (according to you) Amendment VI In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial (not a secret trial with secret evidence), by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed(the plotting was overseas), which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him( not reprensentatives of such wittnessess); to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor (bringing in undercover agaents to testify publically), and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense( cross examining the exposed agents). If this is a criminal matter, which it is not, the 6th applies and either they walk or we dismantle our entire security and intelligence apparatus. Out dozens (if not more) of agents and methods of gathering data. And expose our allies on the ground in places like Afghanistan. Now we all really know what this is about is haulling Bush, Cheny, and Rumsfeld into court, and making them look bad to score partisan points. Thats why not a single leftist has a problem with Obama killing these peoples associates with no trials.

mnottertail -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:31:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail When did you call for the invasion of Isreal, Lebanon, North Korea, Turkey, Morroco, Armenia, Sudan, Cypress and Indonesia, with your fairmindedness? That's fucking lame. Regardless of Resolutions violations, there was no call for military intervention from the UN, we invaded Iraq without cause, and for no reason whatsoever, other than lies from Bush, and once they were found to be lies you supported that shit and all criminal acts arising from it. The resolution violations of those nations are not threats to us. Saddam was. Big difference. There were no lies from Bush, and repeating that lie over and over again doesnt make it true. Saddam was no threat. Your repeating over and over again that Bush did not lie and manufacture the evidence and the war is never going to make it true, thats the statement of verity. There is and has been overwhelming evidence that the Bush administration lied on every concievable point to manufacture that war. It is all over this site, as well as the general net.

luckydawg -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:37:40 PM)
Yeah yeah yeah, change the subject. The authorisation of the use of force was supported bi partisanly, and Clinton killed tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of iraqis for the same reasons. But that has nothing to do with this thread.

luckydawg -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:42:32 PM)
Mnot wierdly enough, THe UN did not explicity grant a mandate to enforce relevant resolutions, in the countries you list, to the USA, as was done after the gulf war with Iraq. THE UN asked America to enforce the resolutions, and we spent billions risking lives to do so. Remeber enforcing the No Fly zones and Bombinb Iraq every couple of days? The bombing of 98? Being the Mandated enforcing power does give us rights.

mnottertail -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:43:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg THe 6th amendment applies here (according to you) Amendment VI In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial (not a secret trial with secret evidence), by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed(the plotting was overseas), which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him( not reprensentatives of such wittnessess); to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor (bringing in undercover agaents to testify publically), and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense( cross examining the exposed agents). If this is a criminal matter, which it is not, the 6th applies and either they walk or we dismantle our entire security and intelligence apparatus. Out dozens (if not more) of agents and methods of gathering data. And expose our allies on the ground in places like Afghanistan. Now we all really know what this is about is haulling Bush, Cheny, and Rumsfeld into court, and making them look bad to score partisan points. Thats why not a single leftist has a problem with Obama killing these peoples associates with no trials. LOL, but the gay red shit is not in the constituition, and your interpretation in the gay red shit writing does not apply to legal proceedings. Work this out captain conundrum.....how did Jeffrey Dalhmer go to jail? The witnesses to the crime were in the freezer or in his belly. I'll wait. Ron

mnottertail -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:47:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg Mnot wierdly enough, THe UN did not explicity grant a mandate to enforce relevant resolutions, in the countries you list, to the USA, as was done after the gulf war with Iraq. THE UN asked America to enforce the resolutions, and we spent billions risking lives to do so. Remeber enforcing the No Fly zones and Bombinb Iraq every couple of days? The bombing of 98? Being the Mandated enforcing power does give us rights. ucky, weirdly enough why dont you put that actual un authorization enforcing mandate right out here for all to see? c'mon. nobody can find it except you.

mnottertail -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:54:26 PM)
by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed(the plotting was overseas), for your edification, the former world trade towers, once located in new york city (manhatten to be a little more precise) blown up and slaughering thousands, which is the crime under discussion, not wmd, not oil, not bushes idiocy, are not usually thought of or referred to as 'overseas'. I don't think they are being indicted for 'plotting'. I think it is going to read a little longer than that. Ron

luckydawg -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:55:04 PM)
You reaqlly should get help for your homophobia Mnot. I guess since you can't actually respond to the argument you start spouting "gay red Shit" over and over. So let the record show MNot has no response to my argument, hence I win... As far as dhalmer goes you are simply incorrect, not all the wittnesses were dead.... On July 22, 1991, Dahmer lured another man, Tracy Edwards, into his home. According to the would-be victim, Dahmer struggled with Edwards in order to handcuff him, and ultimately failed to cuff his wrists together.[35] Wielding a large butcher knife, Dahmer forced Edwards into the bedroom, where Edwards saw pictures of mangled bodies on the wall and noticed the terrible smell coming from a large blue barrel.[36] Edwards punched him in the face, kicked him in the stomach, ran for the door and escaped.[37] Running through the streets, with the handcuffs still hanging from one hand, Edwards waved for help to a police car driven by Robert Rauth and Rolf Mueller of the Milwaukee police department.[38] Edwards led police back to Dahmer's apartment, where Dahmer at first acted friendly to the officers. However, Edwards remembered that the knife Dahmer had threatened him with was in the bedroom. When one of the officers checked the bedroom, he saw the photographs of mangled bodies, and called for his partner to arrest Dahmer.[39] As one officer subdued Dahmer, the other opened the refrigerator and found a human head. Further searching of the apartment revealed three more severed heads, multiple photographs of murdered victims and human remains, severed hands and penises, and photographs of dismembered victims and human remains in his refrigerator.[40] The story of Dahmer's arrest and the inventory in his apartment quickly gained notoriety: several corpses were stored in acid-filled vats, and implements for the construction of an altar of candles and human skulls were found in his closet. Accusations soon surfaced that Dahmer had practiced necrophilia and cannibalism. Seven skulls were found in the apartment.[41] A human heart was found in the freezer.[42] ???? what does that have to do with anything other than showing your memory to be no good?

luckydawg -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:57:45 PM)
Mnot the attacketrs are dead. They were suicide attackers. They rode planes into buildings and died in NYC. KSM didn't hijack a plane, or chrash it into anything. He recruited, trained and funded the people who did. While overseas. It indeed is simply going to be a conspiricy charge for plotting the event.

mnottertail -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 12:59:58 PM)
so he went to prison for the assault of Tracy Edwards? Fuck me, I thought it was several murders he went to the joint for. I must have misunderstood the papers and the television. to be confronted with the witnesses against him( not reprensentatives of such wittnessess); try again. thats another wrong one and you just proved it.

DomKen -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 1:02:00 PM)
Actually it will be 4 charges of conspiracy to hijack aircraft and 2000+ charges of conspiracy to commit murder and a whole raft of money laundering and other charges. A serious prosecutor could probably drop a 10,000 cont indictment on KSM for 9/11 alone. Throw in the USS Cole attack and the African Embassy bombings and it would probably be 15k.

luckydawg -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 1:07:15 PM)
OK no disagreement with you Dom Ken, In addition to plotting, money laundering. Perhaps we can get KSM on a felony money laundering charge, which is what 5 years or so? He already has time served on that.

luckydawg -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 1:08:31 PM)
MNot this thread is not about Iraq. If you want to start one.

mnottertail -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 1:12:21 PM)
Well, you brought it up, with some impudent claims you made that are patently untrue, now you want to pretend it is me because you want to cover your lies. try again, a stopped clock is right twice a day. Ron

luckydawg -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/17/2009 1:13:38 PM)
Mnot, waht is the point of your dhalmer hijack? Dhalmer admitted he did the acts. His Trial was only about whether he was sane or not. It is not comparable in anyway. Unless KSM goes for an insanity plea. There was a massive amount of physical evidence that showed whatr he had done, and if he wanted to he culd have demanded that the State prove they found the skulls in his apt, and that the state could legally enter and find said evidence, which is where Edwards became relevant. these ridiculous hijacks and gay insults simply show you have nothign to actually base your argument on. Now are you going to adress the issues of the 6th amendment or not?

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