RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five!

RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (Full Version)

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 5:25:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: And your misguided beliefs in what acting like an American means is the shortest path to their not being an America as you know it. ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy What misguided beliefs are those, willbeur? That a people who love freedom don't give it away to the government so that we can feel safer somehow, despite the complete lack of effectiveness of the act? How about the belief that a nation of laws doesn't throw out it's laws out the window because the bad guys want us to? Maybe you mean the belief that the American system of justice is capable of handling this in a manner that will make us proud to be Americans: Finding the wrongdoers, giving them a fair and just trial and, if they are guilty of what we charge them with, meting out a fair and just punishment? What am I missing? The misguided belief that we should grant the rights of citizens to our enemies. The WTC trials showed very clearly how well the American system of justice is able to handle terrorism...it isnt.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 5:41:11 PM)
quote: The misguided belief that we should grant the rights of citizens to our enemies. The WTC trials showed very clearly how well the American system of justice is able to handle terrorism...it isnt. ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Some people will never get it. A civilized system of justice isn't for the criminals. It's for the society the lawful want to live in.

Slavehandsome -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 5:47:55 PM)
Let's not forget that those Iraqi and Afghani taxpayers who are being held in Guantanamo and the scores of other unnamed CIA 'detention centers', are being held against their will, and for all practical purposes were kidnapped from their home countries and taken blindfolded and cuffed into a dark cell and tortured for years. Years. What would you say if the Chinese came and pulled W from Texas, and Cheney from Dubai and swept them off to somewhere in China, to be subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques" that the Chinese Rumsfeld guy had approved, for accusations that they made intentionally treasonous decisions to use Scalar technology to create Hurricane Katrina, and subsequently decided to abandon the civilian taxpayers there? Who's side would you be on in that scenario? I'm just sayin'.....

mnottertail -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 5:49:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy The misguided belief that we should grant the rights of citizens to our enemies. The WTC trials showed very clearly how well the American system of justice is able to handle terrorism...it isnt. so, you you think we should throw the constitution away, the branches of government, have a fuckin allie allie in free? jesus, I thought at least you were a misguided lassize faire capatalist, didnt know you were a fuckin terrorist, you are positively nihilistic and your hatred for anything american is, to say the least, disconcerting. Hell, you ain't even got the conviction of a communist, you are the ultimate threat to the free world. Ron

slvemike4u -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 6:11:38 PM)
Tell him how you really feel Ron.....

mnottertail -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 6:15:53 PM)
nah, I always pussyfoot around like that, I just don't have the courage of my convictions.

Sanity -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 6:27:32 PM)
From www.rushlimbaugh.com - a jury of the Guantanamo Bay Five's peers... [img]http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.parcoltop22.81021.ImageFile.jpg[/img] [sm=biggrin.gif]

mnottertail -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 6:30:23 PM)
where is bush, cheney, wolfowitz, mcain, limbaugh, rove, and the others in that picture, for fucks sake. that is patently imbicilic

Rule -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 6:36:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy The rights in the Constitution are reserved for citizens, not enemies. Which is hypocritical and thus weak and self-defeating.

Rhodes85 -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 6:46:09 PM)
'He did in a military tribunal, which carries the same weight as if he did in a civilian court. ' Doesn't mean a thing. His lawyer can get it thrown out very easily in a US court. The fact that he was tried by a military tribunal in the first place is a violation of US and international law, as well as the hague and geneva conventions regarding the treatment of prisoners of war. Legally an armed person that is captured that is not a member of a recognized nations armed forces is automatically considered an unlawful combatant. The same as a mercenary. However they are protected until such time as a military court determines their status. Until such a decision is reached they are protected as a recognized prisoner of war under international law. Should they be found to be an unlawful combatant they are subject to prosecution and punishment up to and including execution. This also applies to mercenaries, personnel from hired 'security firms' that the US frequently uses in Iraq (they are by definition unlawful combatants) and anybody else who is not a member of the armed forces of a recognized country. 'Till then, you can only hold him as long as the war lasts.......OH!!!!!! MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!!! ' Exactly, according to international law prisoners of war must be released within a reasonable amount of time following the official conclusion of hostilities. In Iraq that was 2003. Technically any prisoners taken during the Iraq war should have been released then.Those that are taken after the official end of the war were taken prisoner in violation of international law. Though you can throw that out the door anyway due to the fact that the invasion of Iraq was in violation of the hague convention in regards to the legality of attacking a soverign nation without provocation and a declaration of war. Technically its illegal for the US to even be there, but thats common knowledge anyway and the US doesn't care. So theres no point in getting into that.

kdsub -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 7:10:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Nah...He just thinks they are guilty Butch I doubt he'd be resorting to a federal trial if he wasn't sure that whatsisface sheik mohammed was going to plead guilty. Maybe they can just a wave a confession they've waterboarded out of the lad over the last six years before the Judge and let him don a black cap... So you think it is impossible for them to get fair trials in a civilian court...Or do you think they cannot get fair trials in the United States? Just wondering where you stand. Butch

kdsub -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 7:31:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales I may well be alone in this but I think that bringing these men to trial is a good and necessary thing. Treating them as any other criminals sends the message that they are not supermen, they are not political martyrs, that they are just a bunch of thugs who managed to carry out a horrible crime. That crime hurt us, but didn't change who we are, and who we are is a people who have a system of laws and justice to which these men will be brought and tried. I personally want to see these criminals treated as what they are, no more and no less. Let them see that we have not stopped being America just because they blew up a building. For once we agree [:D] If there is proof of what he is accused then, in a fair society, it should make no difference where he is tried. Otherwise if there was enough evidence to convict him in a military tribunal there should be enough to convict him in a civilian court. Yes there is debate over… are we at war…. and if so what rules should captured prisoners come under. In a regular war it is enough to be captured as a member of the enemy forces. But in this type war there is no particular adversarial country. People of the world should recognize our problems in this matter… If we release combatants they will just kill more of us. For the time being our best bet is to prosecute those we have evidence of crimes. This will not be the last war of this kind in the world… we need to negotiate world wide how to handle captured combatants in this war on terror. If all the countries sign off there will not be no need for a Guantanamo prison camp. Butch

TheHeretic -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 7:35:52 PM)
FR: I think it's a dangerous choice that could blow up in the administration's collective face in a whole lot of different ways. Naive, and poorly thought out... Oops. I mean Hope and Change...

kdsub -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 7:42:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic FR: I think it's a dangerous choice that could blow up in the administration's collective face in a whole lot of different ways. Naive, and poorly thought out... Oops. I mean Hope and Change... Perhaps...but it is the RIGHT thing to do even if politically explosive. Applying justice should not be thought out but an automatic right of anyone accused, even if often unpopular. Should we base our justice system on what is popular or politically correct? Butch

Lorsan -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 8:31:43 PM)
I'm on the fence about this. There is legitimate danger in bringing them here. What if they're acquitted? A large chunk if not all of the evidence gathered from being held by the CIA or enhanced interrogation will be thrown out. Why are only some being brought to the civil courts and not all? If tribunals work for some why not these? The administration needs to pick one or the other. How many vital intelligence gathering sources will be outed during discovery? How much of the trials will be about the gitmo guys and how much will be about putting the Bush administration on trial? And that's just off the top of my head. Like I said, I'm on the fence about this. I don't mind it so much, but I could see it blowing up in their faces bigtime too.

DomKen -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 9:09:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy I see. So youre maintaining that amendments that are silent with respect to an issue (who it applies to) expands those rights to parties not included in the the original document. The mind boggles. The amendments are not silent. The 4th: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated The 5th: No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; The 6th: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, Not right of the citizenry but right of the people. Not No citizen shall be held to answer but No person shall be held to answer.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 9:35:34 PM)
quote: FR: I think it's a dangerous choice that could blow up in the administration's collective face in a whole lot of different ways. Naive, and poorly thought out... Oops. I mean Hope and Change...ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Can you tell me what you think these dangers are? I'd be very curious to hear.

TheHeretic -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 10:02:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: FR: I think it's a dangerous choice that could blow up in the administration's collective face in a whole lot of different ways. Naive, and poorly thought out... Oops. I mean Hope and Change...ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Can you tell me what you think these dangers are? I'd be very curious to hear. Lawyers who decide to put the Bush Administration on trial as a defense spring quickly to mind, Spinner. Then we have the problem of trying to find a jury not already familiar with the crime. Do we want this decided by 12 people that ignorant of the world around them? Remember O.J.? I don't know that the international publicity is going to play well for us. It gives the defendants an opportunity to portray themselves as martyrs. Seen that "holy man" picture of Khalid Sheik Mohammed the Red Cross provided to the radical Islamic websites (indirectly)? Further, if the trial winds up looking like a kangaroo court to try and head off these issues, we look even worse than if we put them in front of a military tribunal to begin with. There are the security issues of holding the trial in NYC, instead of on a much more secure military installation (I'm not worried about these guys escaping, but it makes the location one hell of a target). There are the security issues of disclosing what knowledge we have, and how we get it, without a shred of doubt that the New York Times will run everything they can get, regardless of impact on national security. Those are just a few of the potential problems, with no need whatsoever to open the can of worms to begin with.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 10:20:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy I see. So youre maintaining that amendments that are silent with respect to an issue (who it applies to) expands those rights to parties not included in the the original document. The mind boggles. The amendments are not silent. The 4th: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated The 5th: No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; The 6th: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, Not right of the citizenry but right of the people. Not No citizen shall be held to answer but No person shall be held to answer. The Constitution only applies to citizens. period.

slvemike4u -> RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! (11/13/2009 10:23:51 PM)
Well now that thats cleared up........

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