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RE: Free speech? - 3/12/2006 12:45:30 PM

Level

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Tiger......I do see what you're saying about the joke, but I won't assume (and to me, that's what I'd be doing) that AquarianMale is a homophobe. Humor is, by its very nature, often rude and crude.

For what it's worth, I respect that you've attempted to present your side of this matter with intelligence.

Level

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Post #: 81

RE: Free speech? - 3/12/2006 12:48:17 PM

IronBear

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Y'know, I'm pretty careful about jokes I tell if they are racist, lifestyle (any) or religious. (I don’t mind political jokes because politicians are a joke IMO). However amongst friends, I do tell a variety of jokes and will usually add that I was told the joke originally by a person who belongs to the race, lifestyle or religion referred to in the joke.. I have to say that virtually of the Jewish jokes I know were told to me by Rabbis, Aboriginal Jokes by Aboriginal Elders, and Gay jokes by Gay friends. None of them are insulting jokes.

I do draw the line which ridicules another especially if that person is not present or has some disability which is the point of the joke. I remember as kid just how cruel kids are when some one is different and many adults were/are not much better. However I will never and can never agree to censorship which forbids jokes, or defines which jokes are permitted. That too is the thin edge of the wedge. Far too many people in power are analy retentive and have one eye on financial gain by kissing the asses of right winged bigots and the other eye of the financial gain by staying in office. I learned a long time ago when people were telling cruel jokes about me or my Father (Who was disables and had a deformed back), to suck it up and place them on ignore. (there is a limit as to how many kids you can take on in a street fight by yourself as I discovered the hard and painful way. I also discovered that reacting to taunts and cruel jokes only encourages more intelligent people to join in.. Ignoring proved the best in the long run for either they would get tired or others would rip new arse holes in them.

I will however wade in, in full combat mode when I see others being treated like I was, Yes we can speak up and make a difference by showing our disapproval but not by censorship.

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Post #: 82

RE: Free speech? - 3/12/2006 2:28:54 PM

windy135

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Nicely said IronBear!

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Post #: 83

RE: Free speech? - 3/12/2006 3:35:31 PM

Lurking

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Joined: 12/24/2005
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We dont really have free speach in this country anymore. The libs managed to kill it, under the guise of Political Correctness. There are things that cannot be said in a University classroom, not because they are false, but because they violate the precepts of multiculturism.

I could say more, but I wont bother.

One thought though, for all. If it something offends you, just walk away. There;s room enough for almost everybody. "Just walk away from it", sport.

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Post #: 84

RE: Free speech? - 3/12/2006 5:07:37 PM

Gauge

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quote:

The joke was that the guy has aids because he is gay, and being gay is wrong so he needs to learn how to use his ass properly, how in any way could that not be considered a homophobic sentiment?

Where in that joke does it say it is wrong to be gay? It's not there so don't bother looking for it. You saw what you wanted to. You placed the implication that being gay was wrong in there. If it said that all gay people were bad, THAT is a homophobic statement and you would have my full support.

The automatic branding of someone as being hateful, bigoted or racist because of the context of a joke is also judgmental, bigoted and myopic. It is far too easy to throw these terms around at whim to try to prove something that just isn't there.

quote:

I do not agree with anyone who says that a bigot can be countered by people not listening to them, the only way people will know how offensive they are being and how wrong there viewpoint is if people counter them.

Why do TV shows get canceled? Because they are not received by the general public. The audience not receptive to the show and therefore it gets canned in favor of another show that will hopefully do better. If you give a racist, bigot, or hate monger a platform to spew their vile agenda then you are lending credence to their views by allowing him your time. You take the audience away and the bigot, racist, hate monger no longer has anyone to listen to them. They will pack up and move on until they find an audience.

This is not to say that we should not counter their viewpoints to show them how much of a scumbag they are but what really comes out of that? I live a few blocks from a hospital that does abortions. One day the pro-lifers and the pro-choice people were out in full force yelling and screaming at each other. There were insults and swearing of the most vile kind from both sides. What got solved? Nothing. Sure there was media coverage and interviews from both sides of the issue but that was about the extent of the benefit of it. The media gave them their platform... if they didn't I don't think you would see as much of that sort of thing going on.

quote:

I define what I find offensive on a personal level, though common sense defines it in the broader sense, I am sure homophobes and racists know how offensive they are being to gay or black people.

This is interesting... you are saying that common sense dictates what is offensive and what isn't? Just how, exactly, does it do that? If I find stuffed animals offensive, does common sense dictate that they are or is that a personal decision? Someone on this site has a signature that says something like, "Common sense isn't common, it is rare indeed."

I am sure that racists, bigots and hate mongers know how offensive they are being to others but they don't care. Why allow someone to rent space in your head for free?

quote:

You can clearly see what I find offensive in my opening message I don’t think asking to define the obvious furthers debate it just stifles it.

On the contrary, what you find offensive and WHY are at the very crux of this debate. So far you have thrown around buzz words, assumptions and very broad statements to support your argument. Not that you are wrong in your thinking but just saying that we all should know why you feel the way you do and you shouldn't have to explain it isn't a very strong position.

I think what the real issue is is perceived intent. Your perception of a joke laced with homophobia and hate was what you saw. The intent was not that at all as you should have read from the OP's second post.

Look, I am not an insensitive lout... I do understand what bothered you and if it upset you then (because I laughed at it) I apologize but I hope you understand what sparked the debate.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

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Post #: 85

RE: Free speech? - 3/12/2006 7:55:35 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

Or be preceived to, if the listener is sufficiently paranoid. In general, most fairminded people don't try to be mindreaders

But why is a person perceived to be paranoid if he/she misunderstood?

If, for example, one reads the statement, "there are bigots in this world," and creates a response "I am not a bigot," one certainly may consider that either the second speaker is paranoid or has a reason for self-assignement of the prime statement.

i just saw this. Your original post came up blank.

Yes a generic statement such as that is indeed generic. "You" statements are not always generic, which is why i asked.

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Post #: 86

RE: Free speech? - 3/12/2006 8:32:35 PM

Lordandmaster

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Well, yes, but the question was whether we believe there should be limits to free speech, not whether there are limits to free speech. Of course there are limits to free speech.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

The point i was making is (and it seems you agree), there are limits and boundaries to such freedoms.

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Post #: 87

RE: Free speech? - 3/12/2006 8:34:58 PM

ownedgirlie

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Okay. Then my answer is yes, based on the current limits.

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Post #: 88

RE: Free speech? - 3/12/2006 9:32:52 PM

brightspot

Posts: 3052
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Okay, dang I was trying to avoid this thread.

I have had many close friends die of AIDS and they will not be diminished or just understood as a Cowboy... Cowboys are a misicule of
those perimiters(S?). From my experience, gays are everywhere, the NFL, the Hunkiest men in the movies, and yes ther are gay cowboys, even if it blows some of your minds,
They have sex in many loving, glorious ways and are most times very committed to each other.
I am ashamed that I have been here as a lesbian this long and I see most of you react this way WTF?
Should WIITWD be so segarated and people here on CM be so lax in attentiveness?
WIll we now tell jokes about different races and demeaning women?
I would rather see us embrace each other and not even put that kind of chit out there!

*Brightspot

*Brightspot

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But..."May at Least One person have a sense of Humor!" ~KML.

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Post #: 89

RE: Free speech? - 3/12/2006 10:06:06 PM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
Where in that joke does it say it is wrong to be gay? It's not there so don't bother looking for it. You saw what you wanted to. You placed the implication that being gay was wrong in there.

Okay, now you have totally lost it...jokes don't exist in a vacuum, they exist in relation to other culture references - and we all know what those are even when they are sometimes hard to list or articulate in any way.

The point of that joke is that an asshole is for shooting out shit (or maybe even explosive diarrhea given the items on the recommended menu) and not for fucking. I guess it's possible to be gay without the anal sex part, but you'll pardon me if I make the very pointed connection that is so obviously there - the Doctor seems to make that connection in the joke too. Of course, the joke is funnier still because the dumb cowboy doesn't realize that his anal sex escapades are the probable cause of his having (and probably dying of) AIDS - what a fitting punishment! Gay cowboy...AIDS...diarrhea...

Hilarious!...Haha!

I know a really funny joke about Jews that die together in a Nazi gas chamber in Auschwitz. It's really funny. I told it to some Jewish friends of mine and they laughed about it too. Hey, some of my best friends are Jewish. Really...!

Or maybe you folks would prefer to hear a joke about this nigger and his stupid cunt girlfriend...

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 3/12/2006 10:08:14 PM >

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Post #: 90

RE: Free speech? - 3/12/2006 10:29:55 PM

Gauge

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I will quote something from my previous post and then I believe that I will be done posting to this thread.

quote:

The automatic branding of someone as being hateful, bigoted or racist because of the context of a joke is also judgmental, bigoted and myopic. It is far too easy to throw these terms around at whim to try to prove something that just isn't there.

It is terribly sad that you have taken this fairly level headed debate into the realm of the extreme.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 91

RE: Free speech? - 3/13/2006 4:41:51 AM

Chaingang

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Sorry, I just think you are flat out wrong about this.

Being intolerant of intolerance is fair. Intolerance is the only thing I find intolerable - and if I accept intolerance by inaction, I am tacitly accepting a worldview of exclusion. It is NOT at all on the same footing as being intolerant to begin with - in the absence of intolerance, I would have nothing to be intolerant about.

...

Person A values his own lifestyle and circumstances and detests those of other people. His is a worldview of exclusion. Person B values his own lifestyle and circumstances and respects those of other people. His is a worldview of inclusion. When Person A gets their way about things others are put down and disrespected. Person B will not allow that to happen because to do so is in precise opposition to the inclusive worldview he champions.

Simple, huh?

...

I have in fact stated my opposition to any form of censorship. I just think the assertion that the joke told in the humor forum was not, in fact, anti-gay is absurd. We all know it was anti-gay and you know it. I don't recall saying anything about the OP of the humor thread, I have argued that the joke itself tends toward being poisonously anti-gay and hateful. I tolerate hate speech, but I also calls 'em as I sees 'em - it is the only way hate speech becomes instructive, by calling it out and naming it what it is.

Let me guess, some of your "best friends" are gay?

=)

C'mon....!

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 3/13/2006 4:44:01 AM >

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Post #: 92

RE: Free speech? - 3/13/2006 1:51:36 PM

MstrTiger

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From: UK
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I don’t agree with a single point you have made so far gauge, first of all I don’t think the person who posted the joke is a homophobe, I have said several times that it is the sentiment in the joke that I object to. You accuse me of using broad statements to support my arguments while at the same time you use the nature of words and random and unrelated anecdotes to support yours. You also accuse me of throwing around sound bites and buzz words while you offer us such gems as ‘Why allow someone to rent space in your head for free’ and ‘Common sense isn't common, it is rare indeed’. I think I have made perfectly clear in my messages how I feel and everyone else who has posted messages on the thread seams to have grasped it, I don’t see why I should have to further elaborate just to suit you.

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Post #: 93

RE: Free speech? - 3/13/2006 3:24:12 PM

Gauge

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quote:

first of all I don’t think the person who posted the joke is a homophobe, I have said several times that it is the sentiment in the joke that I object to.

By sheer implication your quote below calls the person a homophobe by indirectly saying "their hatred."

quote:

Do you think the right to free speech should apply to everyone and everything no matter how offensive it is to the section of society their hatred is directed?.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your questions, but I don't think I have.

quote:

You accuse me of using broad statements to support my arguments while at the same time you use the nature of words and random and unrelated anecdotes to support yours.

I have accused you of nothing. I have made statements as to how I see things. The "nature of words" is at the very issue of free speech. Nothing about my anecdotes have been "random and unrelated." They were examples in order to illustrate my point. But you take them as you will.

quote:

You also accuse me of throwing around sound bites and buzz words while you offer us such gems as ‘Why allow someone to rent space in your head for free’ and ‘Common sense isn't common, it is rare indeed’.

Sometimes it is a failing of mine that something means more to me inside of me and I communicate the base idea rather than expand on the full idea. But that would be using the nature of words and random anecdotes and I am not supposed to do that.

quote:

I think I have made perfectly clear in my messages how I feel and everyone else who has posted messages on the thread seams to have grasped it, I don’t see why I should have to further elaborate just to suit you.

You don't have to elaborate. That is your right. Have I not stated a few times that I understand why you found the joke offensive? Does this not indicate that I have, in fact, grasped how you feel?

You may think that I am attacking you specifically... I am not. You may feel that I am a prejudiced asshole... I am not. You may even think I am homophobic... I am not.

I have said that what I find very dangerous about your stance is the fact that you have claimed that you can see within someone's mind and know what it is their thinking is. Perceived intent is not indicitive of actual intent.

I will not get into a pissing contest with you, that is not my nature at all. We should be able to accept that we see things differently and that I will not convince you and you will not convince me otherwise. I can do that. I have done that.

< Message edited by Gauge -- 3/13/2006 3:26:00 PM >

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

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Post #: 94

RE: Free speech? - 3/13/2006 3:51:34 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

Help me out here. This question is posed to everyone and is not directed at anyone.

As a person who tries to see and appreciate the humor in everything because the world is just TOO f...n serious. Because we all have an indeterminate life sentence and we should use it to have as much fun as possible. Because the consequence of taking things, especially yourself, is, so far five pages of debate and name calling. I need to know the one joke, if it exists, that doesn't offend anyone.

A perusal of the "humor" forum provides examples of insulting:

men
woman
rednecks
Chinese
druggies
drunks
Irish
Italians
old people
stupid people
husbands
young people
incest (CLEAR 'TOS' VIOLATION)
cows
Texans

That's on the first page.

Does anyone have a joke unoffensive to someone? Even, "Why did the chicken cross the road?" offends PETA types who pose the question; "Did the chicken really wanted to cross?" If not - whoever made the chicken do it should be arrested, and forced to wear feathers - offending the bird lovers who are the source of the feathers!

"Knock, knock" jokes? What about those with NO knockers? Ever think of them? huh?

Lighten up? HA! there is NO WAY beth can get any "lighter"! Don't insult her!

Free speech? I just attending a charity function at a comedy club and to hear insults about gays, blacks, whites, Mexicans, Irish, Italians, etcetera - it cost $100 per tickets.

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Post #: 95

RE: Free speech? - 3/13/2006 3:59:57 PM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

A perusal of the "humor" forum provides examples of insulting:

men
woman
rednecks
Chinese
druggies
drunks
Irish
Italians
old people
stupid people
husbands
young people
incest (CLEAR 'TOS' VIOLATION)
cows
Texans

That's on the first page.

"Texans"???? Now that's going too goddam far!!

And here I thought this thread was going really well.

And just in case the fires of hell haven't been flamed enough: How do you which one is the Aggie on an offshore drilling rig?

He's the one throwing bread crumbs to the helicopters.

Level

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Post #: 96

RE: Free speech? - 3/13/2006 4:13:21 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
How do you which one is the Aggie on an offshore drilling rig?

He's the one throwing bread crumbs to the helicopters.

Level[/color]

Was he/she a:

Man?
Woman?
Redneck?
Chinese?
Druggie?
Drunk?
Irish?
Italian?
Old person?
Stupid person?
Husband?
young person?
Texan?

< Message edited by IronBear -- 3/13/2006 4:14:05 PM >

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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Post #: 97

RE: Free speech? - 3/13/2006 4:22:23 PM

Level

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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Was he/she a:

Man? -
Woman?
Redneck?
Chinese?
Druggie?
Drunk?
Irish?
Italian?
Old person?
Stupid person?
Husband?
young person?
Texan?

IronBear, an aggie could fall into any of the above categories. (I'm tempted to point at "stupid person" but I resist).

Why do Aggies hate M&Ms? They're too hard to peel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Florida State student, a Kansas State student, and an Aggie had all
commited horrendous crimes and were going to be shot. The FSU guy was brought up and blindfolded. The general shouted, "Ready ....... aim..." and the FSU guy yelled, "Huricane!!," everybody ducked, and he ran away free.
Dismayed at losing their first prisioner, the guards brought up the KSU student with renewed vengence. They blindfolded him and the general commanded, "Ready......aim....." and the KSU guy shouted, "Tornado!!" and fearing for their lives, everybody ducked, and he ran away free.
Well, the Aggie has been watching all this and starts thinking, "They all yelled natural disasters and they got away, so I will too." So they brought him up and blinded folded him, the general shouted, "Ready ...... aim...." and the Aggie screamed, "Fire!!"

Level, grinning

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Post #: 98

RE: Free speech? - 3/13/2006 4:50:16 PM

Tempestspet

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I've agreed and disagreed with many so far...

What I haven't seen mentioned yet, and I could be wrong here, is that your right to freedom of speech is not absolute.
You may not say absolutely whatever you want, absolutely whenever you want. How many are aware of that?

Though even with that having been said, you have to tolerate some "intolerable" issues, to ensure the right to freedom of speech on "tolerable" issues.

Small side note: I found it very difficult for awhile when my husband/master was still active duty Army, to listen to people whine, and cry about the soldiers, their treatment...and how wrong is was for them to be in ..(insert your choice of country here)..

I did tolerate it though, even while I found it highly insulting....it was MY husband they were talking about. But I stayed calm, and let them have their opinions.... because that's ALL it was... their opinion. Occasionally I would tell them that it was due to those soldiers, in part, that they retained their right to cry and whine about the government...etc...

Now, just like then, whether you disagree or agree... I don't much care. Because those are my beliefs, and I am entitled as much as you are...no matter how disgusting, sick, stupid, naive, ..whatever... I think they are.

That's just the way it goes. Sometimes, you just have to (as others have said) have the courage to pick up your cajones and carry on.

Tempest's pet
jennifer

< Message edited by Tempestspet -- 3/13/2006 4:51:33 PM >

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Post #: 99

RE: Free speech? - 3/13/2006 5:06:01 PM

Level

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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tempestspet

I've agreed and disagreed with many so far...

What I haven't seen mentioned yet, and I could be wrong here, is that your right to freedom of speech is not absolute.
You may not say absolutely whatever you want, absolutely whenever you want. How many are aware of that?

Tempest's pet
jennifer

There have been posts regarding speech limits (slander, inciting violence, etc)

Level

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Post #: 100

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