RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 1:31:31 PM)

Besides, I still like going to the post office to send real letters and real greeting cards. I enjoy adorning envelopes with decorative stamps. It's kind of cool to have a chat with the PO employees (they're mostly very friendly). It's in-town; it's romantic; it's old-fashioned. Today, my new postman delivered a carefully wrapped precious and very fragile object that had come all the way from France still in one piece and in a very timely manner, with a smile, and he even helped me get the cat back inside after he had escaped. The guys from FedEx wouldn't have been that cool. Vive le snail mail!



SirAldwyn -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 1:42:26 PM)

Huh, having not been on here on, I do notice those who walk around a question instead of answering it.  You are very good at that.   Still the questions is unanswered, though I'm sure you feel your vague no answer is enough for you

You got asked several direct questions, and you have not answered one directly, oh you jumped around them, but never answered. 

Do you live in the USA?

Is your system better?  If so How?  Not UPS or Fedex deliver to every household or business address in the USA 6 days per week, so what is your solution for the same service under 50 cents an oz





thishereboi -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 1:48:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Taking you up on your offer of shutting down the USPS:

I suppose most Americans figure they can do without it; who really relies on the USPS anymore? Oh, the once a year Christmas cards, the occasional paperwork that can't be emailed, but for the most part, the average American is the recipient of mail, very few actually send any.

Which is the rub; the beneficiaries of the USPS are mostly direct mail advertisers, and businesses that rely on mailing bills and advertisements. As mentioned, USPS is not only cheap, it is universal- they can reach every single address.

If the utility companies and credit card companies had to find another way to get your monthly bill to your house, they might dispute your contention.

Electronic billing can handle a wide range of things, but the physical delivery of contractual items is still very important- if businesses were suddenly faced with paying much higher private company rates, and if they were faced with losing entire swaths of rural and unprofitable addresses, they might demand a publicly funded universal delivery service. Or pass the higher rates onto their customers.


Actually, I know several people who still send snail mail including myself. I can think of a dozen just off the top of my head who don't use computers and have no other way to correspond.



Mercnbeth -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 2:24:43 PM)

quote:

Did you not move to Italy? If not then I am sorry I am wrong.
Not yet, started the process but immigrating legally and obtaining citizenship will take a bit of time. No apology needed - but thanks and sorry for the confusion. However we did have a discussion about mail forwarding while there - and will be using a pay service. I have no problem paying for a product as needed and used.

quote:

But still tell me 1 private company that stops at every USA address for under 50 cents OZ
Not a relevant question. Tell me why any company, public or private, should do so at an annual deficit of $3.8 Billion and NOT be closed?

quote:

Tell me 1 government service that creates a profit,
Well your fundamental premise, the USPS being a government service, has been debated in this thread. My point takes profit as a consideration but doesn't represent the primary point which is the USPS is obsolete as well as being a burden to taxpayers.
quote:

if they don't create a profit are you saying we should stop them all?
That's a great idea; however not practical. Lets start with the ones that aren't necessary and, better yet, can be served though the private sector which would take the burden off the US taxpayer to bail them out.

I know, I know, it's against the current tidal trend, but worth a try.



Mercnbeth -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 2:34:34 PM)

quote:

Not UPS or Fedex deliver to every household or business address in the USA 6 days per week, so what is your solution for the same service under 50 cents an oz
Everything else asked has been answered.

UPS, Fedex and any of the other delivery services can and will deliver anything you what to ship for a cost. There are similar services that will do it 7 days a week, also at an appropriate, overhead and profit considered, cost. When I, or anyone else makes a decision to use these vendors, I make a decision based upon the cost to service involved.

My solution would be to apply the same basic business practice to the USPS and price the product appropriately. Either charge $5.00 per ounce, or whatever the 'break even' point, and maintain the existing facility or close it.

End of problem.

You know, in the old days, it was economical and practical to have milk, ice, and other products delivery daily too? Things and institutions become obsolete and their closing is marked with sadness. People get over it, and manage or not. The government isn't set up to insure everyone is 'happy', only to pursue happiness. Some people just never seem to catch it, especially sitting on their ass and waiting for it to be delivered.



housesub4you -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 2:44:35 PM)

Really???  Huh I guess you are just like all the other GOP supporters when asked a direct question, you find a way out

Do you live in the USA or not?  seems simple enough, unless you care so much about htis country you leave it

You offer nothing but BS answer.  In case you forgot, the USPS is not a business, it is a service, which has no equal that you can mention. 

You're claims if applied across the board would mean every service the US Gov supports which does not make a profit should be closed, ahhh   sorry, you are wrong on this one, 

And really why not answer the question did you leave the USA for another country or not??????  You know the ols saying America love it or leave it?  I still remeber your post about moving forever overseas



Mercnbeth -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 3:04:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

Really???  Huh I guess you are just like all the other GOP supporters when asked a direct question, you find a way out

Do you live in the USA or not?  seems simple enough, unless you care so much about htis country you leave it


I'll take the denseness into consideration next time along with your physical inability to click on the picture and view the profile to discover this previously hidden aspect of myself that you deem so critical and important.

I AM living in the US. I am not a member of the communist party, however, I do live in socialist California. I'm leaving because I can, and it serves no purpose to stay. Neither my voice or my capitalist contributions to fit in the current economic conditions of the US.

I AM not a supporter of the GOP or any party other than one I've formed, the anti-incumbent party, with a confirmed constituency of two (Me & beth).

My 'care' on any matter, my current country of residence and citizenship, or the USPS, is a product of my avowed religion - I am an devout Orthodox Pragmatist. It was through my religion that I came to the conclusion that current trends in the US will eliminate any and all my plans for a comfortable retirement. Selfish, however no less so than those who belief that they are entitled to benefit from the work of others. Some see it as an "I got mine - Fuck YOU!" move. In reality it is more an "I earned mine - I'm not interested in giving it to you - See 'ya!"

When rewarding failures became common not only within the dysfunctional public education system but as a government policy for all people and businesses at large, I knew it was time for me to leave. I don't like failure, I don't accept it, and sure as shit, won't fund it with my tax dollars if I can help it. I happen to be in a position of not having to do so.

Look what rewarding failure generates - people don't even know how to click on a link to get an answer and instead have to have it given to them - like they're entitled!

quote:

Really???
Yes REALLY! Your detailed and referenced response regarding the obsolesce of home milk and ice delivery service notwithstanding!

quote:

if applied across the board would mean every service the US Gov supports which does not make a profit should be closed
"And I say to myself....what a wonderful world!" One can dream can't one!



housesub4you -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 3:18:05 PM)

No offense , but I really had you confused with someone on this site  who moved out of this country,

I am sorry for that.

I still find fault with you view of the USPS and shutting it down.

I can not find a better system in this world who will deliver a 1 oz letter to any address in the USA for under 50 cents.  No where in the world.

Still, with all you say, it does defeat your suggestion that when the GOV runs a business a private business has no chance.  So I guess, even if the US gov offers a plan you have to admit that private sector can compete or does the mail not count?



DCWoody -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 3:19:38 PM)

The British public post system was doing huge losses a couple of years back too, they got someone in whose done a good job of reforming it, although still a long way to go it's in profit now and service is still good & cheap. I really don't know what I'm talking about here with regards to the usa post service, so this is merely a guess....but would suggest.....that at least part of the answer would be to get some ruthless private sectoreqsue internal reforms of it going. I'm sure that the number of letters sent has fallen hugely over the last two decades....has the number of employees fallen as much, etc...



philosophy -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 3:20:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

But still tell me 1 private company that stops at every USA address for under 50 cents OZ
Not a relevant question. Tell me why any company, public or private, should do so at an annual deficit of $3.8 Billion and NOT be closed?




....this is the crux of the many times you and i disagree Merc. For you, apparently, it's always all about the money. For me, it's about making sure that every single individual in society gets a fair shake. Not just those who can afford it, or those who are good at playing the money game.

Money is nothing more than a token economy. You can't eat it, you can't use it to build a house, you can't educate anyone with it, you can't breathe it.

It's just a way of keeping score, for those who think the score is important. You, apparently, think the score is the most important thing in your universe. i'd rather base my values on a real thing, not just a token.



philosophy -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 3:21:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

The British public post system was doing huge losses a couple of years back too, they got someone in whose done a good job of reforming it, although still a long way to go it's in profit now and service is still good & cheap. I really don't know what I'm talking about here with regards to the usa post service, so this is merely a guess....but would suggest.....that at least part of the answer would be to get some ruthless private sectoreqsue internal reforms of it going. I'm sure that the number of letters sent has fallen hugely over the last two decades....has the number of employees fallen as much, etc...



...and before Thatcher came in and tried to privatise it, it made so much money each year it actually put money back into the treasury.



DCWoody -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 3:23:46 PM)

That was before email though, running a profit on it these days is more than a little trickier.



Mercnbeth -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 3:24:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you
No offense , but I really had you confused with someone on this site  who moved out of this country,
I am sorry for that.
Again - no need for any apology! Sorry if I let the 'Evil Merc' come out and get a bit over the top too.

These are difficult times we live it. My bottom line, unfortunately not subscribed to by any number close to a majority, is that we are ALL being manipulated by those who have managed to take power in the US. Since McCain Feingold there is only one party - the incumbent party. All the little skirmishes contrived by the RNC or DNC serve only to distract from that fundamental truism.

Take care!



philosophy -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 3:27:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

That was before email though, running a profit on it these days is more than a little trickier.



......well true, but speaking as someone who can trace five generations back as postal employees in the UK, it has always been an adaptable and flexible system. Well, it was until political/ideological interference from right wing parties there made things tricky. It was prevented from investing in new tech when it made sense to do so, because of fears regarding competition. This from the same government that privatised and utterly screwed up the railways.

We have a number of posters here who sioncerely believe that the private sector can always do things better. i don't disagree that there are whole sectors of the economy which, indeed, do better when privatised. However infrastructure is not one of them, and communications is infrastructure.



Mercnbeth -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 3:35:52 PM)

quote:

For you, apparently, it's always all about the money. For me, it's about making sure that every single individual in society gets a fair shake. Not just those who can afford it, or those who are good at playing the money game.
Sorry you have that opinion of me. It serves the point that written communication never conveys the appropriate sentiment of the person behind it.

It's about the pragmatism of it. Call the USPS a charity and I'll be donating to it. Get off the fence about whether it is a service or a business. It's the same pragmatic logic behind keeping any failed enterprise afloat. You may do it because you what to, but what else more practical and modern can be accomplished with those same resources applied differently?

You value keeping the status quo at any cost. I value progress which accomplished the same goal as the old system but doesn't cost as much and is more efficient. Money, or better put, resources are nothing more than a tool. It's not a way for "keeping score" by those who use it. It is a tool used to accuse others of selfishness when assuming intent. Wanting to save money isn't the same thing not wanting to spend it on the pragmatically viable and isn't in opposition to your "fair shake" requirement.

Thinking outside the box used to be considered positive. Now it's replaced by "too big to fail" and "dire consequences" in lieu of maintaining the status quo. It doesn't speak well for progress.



DCWoody -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 3:46:20 PM)

I have to admit I have little idea, certainly not compared to you it seems, of Thatchers fiddling, but the strikes at the moment seem to be the unions objecting to 'new tech' because it'd cost jobs....



housesub4you -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 3:49:34 PM)

Ahh..ha ha ha... Well thanks for doing more than every elected official in this country, accepting a sincere apology. 







philosophy -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 4:28:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Sorry you have that opinion of me. It serves the point that written communication never conveys the appropriate sentiment of the person behind it.


...fair point. IRL we'd probably get on a lot better than here.

quote:

It's about the pragmatism of it. Call the USPS a charity and I'll be donating to it. Get off the fence about whether it is a service or a business. It's the same pragmatic logic behind keeping any failed enterprise afloat. You may do it because you what to, but what else more practical and modern can be accomplished with those same resources applied differently?


......actually that may not be a bad idea in the US context. Call the USPS a state sponsored charity. You see, for me postal services are not businesses in the usual sense. They're necessary infrastructure. It's good if they make money but not the most important thing. The most important thing is that Granny on a fixed income can post and recieve mail at a low cost. It's that sort of thing that maintains the quality of life in any culture.

quote:

You value keeping the status quo at any cost. I value progress which accomplished the same goal as the old system but doesn't cost as much and is more efficient. Money, or better put, resources are nothing more than a tool. It's not a way for "keeping score" by those who use it. It is a tool used to accuse others of selfishness when assuming intent. Wanting to save money isn't the same thing not wanting to spend it on the pragmatically viable and isn't in opposition to your "fair shake" requirement.


...except privatising postal services does emphatically not achieve the same thing. Privatisation cherry picks the most profitable parts of the business and dumps the bits that lose money. That's good business......but it's granny who loses out and it's granny i'm concerned with here.

quote:

Thinking outside the box used to be considered positive. Now it's replaced by "too big to fail" and "dire consequences" in lieu of maintaining the status quo. It doesn't speak well for progress.


...perhaps this is the same principle i've displayed thinking you're just worshipping at the shrine of the great god dollar. Progress is achieved in a myriad of ways, and they dont all make money or can be slotted into business models.



philosophy -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 4:30:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

I have to admit I have little idea, certainly not compared to you it seems, of Thatchers fiddling, but the strikes at the moment seem to be the unions objecting to 'new tech' because it'd cost jobs....



......well, i have to admit i've been out of the country for a few years so i don't know what the latest strike is about. However i can state with absolute certainty that the post office was not allowed to offer information technology servies when it most made sense to do so...at the beginning.



housesub4you -> RE: USPS posts $3.8B loss for 2009 (11/17/2009 5:36:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:



You value keeping the status quo at any cost. I value progress which accomplished the same goal as the old system but doesn't cost as much and is more efficient. Money, or better put, resources are nothing more than a tool. It's not a way for "keeping score" by those who use it. It is a tool used to accuse others of selfishness when assuming intent. Wanting to save money isn't the same thing not wanting to spend it on the pragmatically viable and isn't in opposition to your "fair shake" requirement.

ss.


So you must really support Wall street and the status quo, cause with no regulations it worked so well, and to think, GWB wanted to turn SS over to the private sector, gee that would have worked out great, for the banks and brokers

I tradered on the floor back in the early 80's, and it seems even then that the average person was nothing more than a sponge to recover high risk from



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