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NihilusZero -> The Manipulation Manifesto (11/17/2009 8:22:38 PM)

Manipulation: An Assistive Guide for the Dominant

In this narrative I'll be going into the inherent dangers that choosing a D/s or BDSM lifestyle or kink or facet can bring for the dominant partner. The focus on extensive responsibility (even to overrule that of others) is obviously pervasive, but the primary concern here lies in the potential for demonization after a bad break-up with a sub and the ever-prevalent accusation of being a "manipulator" and a "user". I will, throughout this writing, refer to this process as M.A. (manipulation accusation).

This is based in part on mentalities I have seen supported in this thread and in other places, privately and publicly. And while the continuing straw man brought forth against these points is one of suggesting that these views amount to no more than the view of 'Dom infallibility', this has nothing to do with whether a dominant can be wrong. Obviously any party in a relationship can be "wrong", but the context of what defines "wrong" in a relationship (especially in a D/s and/or WIITWD relationship) is consent. Not moral norms, not legal support, not popularity contests or votes, but consent and, from that concept, the presumption that all adult parties are capable of it (whether they want to absolve themselves of it later or not).

While the underlying tone of this piece may be slightly tongue in cheek at times, the points behind it are absolutely serious and are something that dominants (particularly new dominants) should know and understand about the predominant state and tone of the community we inhabit. This does not mean everyone views D/s in this manner...only that enough people do to make it a concern for any person desiring to be at the D pole of a relationship.

The Beginning:

To start with, we should clarify the main concern: manipulation. Specifically, the fact that "manipulation" is a phantom accusation when used post-break-up. It is the twisting of past events to put responsibility for the actions that happened on one individual, presumably because a) the other had a compromised mental state, and b) the D-type should have known about that status and chosen to nullify the s-type's consent.

Essentially, when we boil down M.A., it is a rewording of two things:

1) "Someone made me do something I agreed to do but then decided was not good after having done it or chosen it."
2) "I did the things I did and chose to do them because my ability to maturely consent was compromised."

Manipulation is willingly choosing do so something for someone and then deciding at a later date that you wish you hadn't. Furthermore, it is manipulation because the person you did this for should have presumably known better than to trust that you could actually consent to what you were doing and should have instead forbidden you from doing the very thing you chose to do.

While I'm sure there may be some rare occasions where manipulation is a sensible label (though, those instances would usually be called something else: like coercion, or drugging, or something beginning with 'non-consensual'...), I have yet to think of any that would realistically qualify unless there is a definitive clinical biological issue with the person. The drugging part is a particularly interesting parallel as the core argument from those would support M.A. is that natural emotional (and perhaps subtle biological) occurrences in us can act as the equivalent of drugs; that an emotional trauma one may have suffered in the past can absolve someone of clarity of thought in the very same way that being given a date rape drug can. The important thing to realize is that, as the dominant, the presumption of M.A. will treat you as if you had mixed said chemical into an s-type's drink if you are/were not acutely able to discern if the s-type is or is not compromised before you engage in interactions with hir.

Because of this, the prevailing mindset is that the onus is on the dominant, not the submissive, to avoid M.A. by understanding the mental and emotional state of the s-type before even beginning to assume that "yes means yes".

Consent:

I am proposing (based on the concern over M.A.) that, as a dominant, the general assumption you should adopt (particularly in the case of newer s-types) is that they cannot consent and/or cannot understand what it is they are consenting to. It's your responsibility, as the dominant, not to just take an s-type's assurance of ability to consent at face value, but you must also scrutinize and analyze whether that admission is true or false as well as whether it will be true or false in the future.

This introduces us to one of the key parts of this debacle: the "doormat syndrome". While you will more commonly find the term "doormat" used as a means by which certain s-types can decry how they do not want their humanity threatened, it is much more subtly potent in terms of M.A. This refers specifically to the phenomenon upon which new s-types (or even more experienced ones) check their brains at the door of D/s because it is unfamiliar emotional territory and therefore (it's argued) they lose all ability to make informed decisions. Self-understanding is substituted by naiveté as an alibi.

The peer pressure of playing the role of a "good submissive" is often cited as reason for the occurrence of this syndrome as if D/s relationships are emotionally any different in potency or variety than normal ones. I'm not sure how accepted and coddled the notion of a woman staying married to her continually cheating husband would be as supported by the idea that she was confused (manipulated) into trying to be a "good wife", but clearly this is an issue where the apparent novelty of something...anything in an s-type's life not only potentially renders hir incompetent in the decision-making arena for that issue, but can retro-actively absolve hir of being responsible since xhe had a compromised set of critical thinking skills and, therefore, a compromised ability to consent. Unfortunately, there is no table by which we can tally up the bad events a person has experienced in order to see if it shows they've crossed the threshold of non-sensible consent, but it seems any element is worth noting: bad relationships in the past, rough family upbringing, being picked on at school, previous sexual assault, history of drug use and abuse (just to name a few). It's one thing to understand that bad events happen to everyone and that such means we should be understanding of how personal baggage affects each of us, but these are situations where it is proposed that sufficient bad things eliminate the logical capacity to consent.

It appears to be presumed that all submissive are at least prone to the "doormat syndrome": an affliction that (as we discussed), in this specific niche of relationships, renders their critical thinking null. You should proceed with the presumption that the submissive has checked hir brain at the door of WIITWD because xhe is incapable of differentiating between what xhe actually wants and what the BDSM community peer pressure phenomenon requires of hir. To presume that a submissive actually knows what xhe wants and can divine those things irrelevant of personally-imposed fantasy projections of what xhe thinks xhe should be is actually its own form of naiveté and, unfortunately, dominants are not afforded the ability to be the victims of manipulation to the degree s-types are. We're about to see why and why it is of major importance to be vigilant of falling prey to that presumption.


Manipulation is a One-Way Street:

One of the more logically perplexing innuendos wrought from this all is the mindset that M.A. is a role-specific issue. This means that, as the dominant, you are entirely responsible for every action that takes place between both parties. This is a byproduct of the "doormat syndrome". You have to be able to understand that when dealing with a submissive who views D/s like this, you are essentially being handed over ethical control of their ability to consent...meaning, the s-type's consent dissolves and disappears into your decision and it then becomes your responsibility to predict if the s-type will at one day in the future regret relinquishing that to you based on the decisions you make. The reason this becomes difficult to handle is because it is possible that the consent you think has been surrendered to you is actually illusory, because if the s-type was suffering from the "doormat syndrome", then xhe never actually had consent to give you, effectively putting you in the spotlight for the M.A. if you took the s-type's acts/words at face value. As dominants are considered to be empowered by their role in the relationship, only s-types will usually qualify as being seen to suffer manipulation at the hands of another.

Consider the following example:

A dominant demands things of a hypothetical s-type presuming that the s-type wants Hir to show such an authority dynamic because the D-type thinks the s-type loves Hir and wants Hir as the s-type's precious controller and then, once they are no longer together, the s-type actually says xhe never wanted to do any of those things.

Was the dominant in this scenario manipulated or was the submissive?

The fact you'll have to get used to is that the predominant view is that the dominant was the manipulator and it won't matter if you, as the dominant, genuinely thought the sub wanted to give you the things you demanded because it was an indication of the s-type's devotion and/or because it might be the kind of thing xhe was in to.


Preferences and Consequences:

A dominant should advance upon the courtship of a submissive (particularly new ones) with the presumption that xhe does not actually know herself or what she wants. At least, it would appears that case is more common than the converse, so the onus will still be on you, as the dominant, to seek out only those s-types who can more articulately and clearly voice what they want. Otherwise, you run the risk of making requests or pushing boundaries that will be subjectively labeled as "too far" when the relationship is over.

Forget for a moment that every individual gets to determine for himself or herself which things they like and which they don't. You have to be keenly aware that, even in a community that is built on doing socially unacceptable things, there are things you may want that could be a further level of 'badness' below the rest.

There are ways to avoid possible repercussions of M.A. based on where you fall in the spectrum of extreme kinks and wants. Keep in mind that the more uncommon a kink of yours is, the less safe you will be post-breakup. As many s-types appear prone to the "doormat syndrome", you cannot actually be sure of which acts an s-type is consenting to happily or which xhe is consenting to unhappily. To further compound the problem, you have to be able to have clairvoyance to gauge if the s-type, once the relationship is over, will regret any of the acts that xhe had previously consented to.

Unfortunately, there is no universal chart to distinguish which extreme acts/kinks/wants are likely to cause you troubles and which will pass over normally. Although there is by no means a definite list, be wary of relationships with s-types if you happen to be in to any of the following:

* Sexually sharing your partner with others.
* Micromanagement of the s-type's interaction with friends and family
* Body modifications that are irreversible (yes, that will sometimes even include tattoos)
* Pain play to a heavy threshold and daring to push that perimeter.
* Requiring change of anything considered a "core value".
    - These things are often, but not limited to: ability to vote, philosophical views, religious views, moral rewiring, weight adjustments (reducing or increasing).

The reason these types of acts are more likely to bring you M.A, consequences is because as humans, we naturally categorize some thing as more socially acceptable and other things as not. You'll find that many people who have been in the WIITWD community, even for a good while, still have a dichotomy view of things that are "acceptable" and things that are not based on their own personal moralities. The hypocrisy of this, however, is that they themselves are engaging in acts that many others would categorize as "unacceptable" while still morally castigating someone for having a deviant wish, even if they are doing it mutually consensually, that lies outside of their comfort bubble.

A good place to see examples of this is in discussions surrounding M/s relationships or total authority transfers or, as the more common acronym describes it, TPE (total power exchange) relationships, because those dynamics are much more pervasive and (depending on the viewer) invasive, based on how protective someone is of certain parts of themselves.

So, keep in mind that most people, simply by virtue of them being involved in BDSM and D/s and wanting to test the waters, are not actually entirely open-minded about the experiences they will encounter or choose. To use the adage, some people just like to complain about the heat they endured when they chose to enter the kitchen. And, if both you (as the dominant) and they were equally new or if you had more D/s or BDSM experience, M.A. will fall on your shoulders because of the notion of the s-type not being able to say for themselves when things were going beyond their figurative safeword.


Closure:

All people do it but, compounded M.A., the "villainy syndrome" becomes multiplied. By villainy syndrome I speak of the inherent predisposition of most humans to gain closure from bad breakups by demonizing the former partner. Getting over someone is much easier when you can convince yourself that they were evil all along and that your awareness of such was clouded by emotional fluffiness. Psychologically, it serves a useful function when it happens, but we also need to understand how this contributes to M.A.

With s-types, this is precisely where the "doormat syndrome" and the subsequent M.A. get magnified, as they both transition into default pillars for the "villainy syndrome". The "doormat syndrome" places the s-type in a place where xhe is the victim because hir role was supposed to be as subservient to the D-type and because xhe'd apparently checked hir scruples at the door when entering the dynamic. The nature of the D/s dynamic inherently shows off the D-type as the rein-holder, which is a symbolically easy picture to parallel, in transition, that that of Hir being the big, bad D-type once things have gone south.

Reiterating a point from my earlier prologue, this isn't about blame or error. We again have to keenly understand what we dealt with in the 'Preferences' section. Another hypothetical example:

There are two separate couples in D/s relationships. On one night, each couple decides to take their private play into a new territory where they try action X. Both D-type and s-type of Couple A end up performing action X in mutually expressed consent/enjoyment and, for years after, end up performing it over and over. Both D-type and s-type of Couple B end up performing action X in mutually expressed consent/enjoyment and, for years after, end up performing it over and over. At a certain date down the line, both Couple A and B break up.

The s-type of Couple A decides she still actually enjoys action X and keeps it as a part of herself she wants to transition into further relationships.
The s-type of Couple B, however, looks back in shame upon having engaged in action X and declares it as indicative of the fact that M.A. occurred.

As we can see, there is nothing universally and inherently wrong with action X. What makes it "good" or "bad" is based on how perennially positive and consented to it is within the relationship. As participants in WIITWD, it behooves us to realize that this is the foundation of what we do: the understanding that YKINMK (your kink is not my kink) and that consent trumps all. If we call every instance of having done something we regret where our partner didn't dissuade us from doing it "manipulation", then we may as well each be M.A. perpetrators.

Again, though, as a dominant, it comes back to being able to magically divine which acts may be cause for M.A. in the future based on every possible emotional event, some of which were listed earlier.


Wrap Up:

The important thing here is to understand M.A., as a dominant. As mentioned earlier, perhaps you could point out this thread to your prospective sub and find out hir views on things. Because if a submissive can consent to doing what you want and still paint you as a manipulator if the ending doesn't go the way xhe would have liked, then you can't really genuinely trust the capacity for consent of anyone. At very least, you will need to isolate the characteristics that show you that a person actively takes responsibility for the choices they make and demonstrates a clear divergence from habitually using M.A.

Or you could get really lucky and happen to find someone you just mesh with near-ideally to where these issues never come up because you don't have any kinks/wants/requests that fall out of the s-type's threshold or you ,as the dominant, actually succumb enough to the subtle TFTB (topping from the bottom) that would keep you from asking things you may really want but which you know would drive your s-type away and possibly to M.A.

We are creatures of polarity. We create for ourselves heroes and villains, instead of people with wants that happen to conflict with ours. Those who have more extreme wants gets pushed into discriminatory bins: the D-types into the box of M.A. and usury if Xhe dares to demand/request the things Xhe wants, and the s-types (the ones who actually want the extreme things without the interest in M.A.) into the box of mental incompetence for wanting the things most others would find abhorrent.

So, in the end, M.A. is not an issue of blame...but an issue of missed compatibility in which one party tries to find a scapegoat for why things went horribly wrong. Every one of us seeks to get out of relationships the things we desire...we are all inevitably hedonistic in that sense, even if our hedonism travels in an altruistic vehicle.Yet, if we are to be at all true to the standards we appear to want for ourselves, then we should, at all costs, encourage and demand the understanding from each individual here that self-understanding and self-responsibility are flatly expected. There are hardly any real test-runs for parenthood, but it is expected that the event of becoming soon a parent makes one responsible for making mature and sensible choices based on it if one is an adult. D/s is no different. Not being ready for the figurative baby and/or not understanding the responsibilities you should have understood when choosing that path are no excuse for acting foolishly. Not taking the time to understand yourself enough to know what you want is not grounds to blame someone else for the audacity to think you were mature enough to know it.

Nosce te ipsum.




Llyren -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/17/2009 9:07:53 PM)


I feel you made some excellent points with which I agree.  I also think you didn't take a few things into consideration, but that's a fight for another time.  Overall, I do like it, but I have to ask.

Did your tongue puncture your cheek?




catize -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/17/2009 9:33:46 PM)

I will not generalize here but use examples from my own experience.
Often submissive folk will say “my dominant knows me better than I know myself”. To my way of thinking that is a ridiculous idea. No one knows me better than I do. And yet, when I write that my limits are mine, and mine alone, I get very negative responses. According to the generally accepted view, I should let him determine my limits; the faulty rationale being that the dominant, even when he intends no harm, can determine what and what will not be harmful to me. I am capable of accurately determining what is best for me. There are far too many dominants who would choose to ignore my own assessment of what I am, or am not, capable of doing.




quote:

Manipulation is willingly choosing do so something for someone and then deciding at a later date that you wish you hadn't.


I do not agree with this because it does not go far enough. There have been many things I have done in the name of submission which I regret.
The regret alone is not manipulation. I take full responsibility for the fact I was not true to myself.
It is only manipulation if I refuse to see that I had a choice and chose unwisely.

I have also participated in certain practices with R. and S. that happened to turn out badly on an emotional level for me. We discuss, we agree it is not something that will be pursued again, and we move on. I trust both of them to lead and that trust extends to the comfort that, if a mis-step occurs, they will be more careful in the future.

You (the general you) can't have it both ways. If a dominant believes he/she is all wise and knowing and demands anyone who submits to them must buy into that premise; if a dominant insists they are fully responsible for whatever takes place in the relationship, how then do they have the right to complain when they are held accountable?

I do not see this issue as a problem only in D/s or M/s dynamics. Amicable partings are rare in any relationship. Couples who are in the throes of anger during a break up are all too ready to finger point, including those who are very vanilla. Love and hate are not opposites, for they are closely related strong emotions. It is my opinion that the opposite of love is indifference, and that my friend, is a state that only comes with time and healing.




porcelaine -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/17/2009 9:52:14 PM)

Greetings Nihilus,

My comments will be brief because you've covered a lot of ground and what I'd like to say references my own experiences which cast a different light on what was stated. I can't speak for others but will admit that I'm an adult. The idea that some mystical figure is manipulating me into doing something that I have no desire to engage in without visible force, restraints, drug inducement, and a host of other aids that are impressed upon me without my consent is nonsensical and supremely ridiculous. My compliance is consciously ceded, even when regret or disappointment might suggest I should forget it ever occurred.

While my experiences may not have the outcome I'd wish, this doesn't suggest that culpability is nonexistent or only applies in one direction. It is true that pointing the figure or seemingly forgetting what was okay and enjoyable when happier times existed can be the route some elect to trod. However, this brings into the question the very values one heralds for submissive persons admitting and accepting ownership for their actions, including those that didn't include the happy ending I'd composed in my head. Nor do I believe most are afflicted with syndromes that impair their comprehension or ability to make rational decisions. However, ones character can be questionable and anger often reveals unpleasant aspects that may have slipped beneath the radar during the period of acquaintance.

Which leads to the real issue behind documents of this nature. The focus is and should always be on the two parties involved, both investing time and energy into knowing the other. If one elects to focus on the physical and limit the scope of compatibility to lifestyle oriented leanings it stands to reason that at some point breakdowns of this nature will take place. I believe it is also true that one can do their homework and mishaps still occur. Its called life and there's always an element of uncertainty that no amount of preparation or sleuthing can prepare for. The unexpected happens and our response to it is very telling.

I don't expect perfection in human relations, nor do I feel cheated when they fail to deliver as I'd hoped. Neither do I except ownership for other people's failings, but direct my attention toward what I could have done differently in the situation so something positive is taken away. I cannot control what another person says or does while we're together nor when we part company. Their decision to adopt a negative mindset and allow it to inspire actions that are contrary to what I believed going in is a choice they've made and has no bearing on who I am as an individual or the interaction we've had. It is their view, albeit limited in scope based on their experiences, emotions, and mental state at a given time. I don't demean or begrudge them for feeling such, that is beyond my control. What I can control is the response and impact I allow their behavior to have upon me.

To afford an individual the attention that they have neither earned, choose to forsake, or no longer are entitled to receive is foolhardy. It places me in a position that is reactive rather than proactive and motivated by a need to prove what is or isn't correct. My willingness to do such reveals a level of power that has been ceded to another that needs to be reclaimed. It may also reflect fears that should be confronted as well. No man should have the power to bring you to your knees unless you long to be on the kneel. Our strides are meant to be long, not broken.

~porcelaine




NihilusZero -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/17/2009 10:00:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

It is only manipulation if I refuse to see that I had a choice and chose unwisely.

Yet, that refusal is still the decision (via naivete or not) of the person who didn't see it.

But, this does remind me of a point I failed to mention above: the differentiation between manipulation and lying. If an s-type of mine has chosen to do certain things because it was mutually understood that I was to be monogamous and faithful to her and have actually be sleeping around behind her back, and she then regrets having surrendered all she did, that's not manipulation; that's just me flat lying and I'd obviously be completely at fault because I deliberately kept some information and actions from her knowledge.

I view MA, rather, as the choice to do something that is afterwards deemed, as you said, "unwisely" while the person was not clueless as to anything relevant to the situation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

You (the general you) can't have it both ways. If a dominant believes he/she is all wise and knowing and demands anyone who submits to them must buy into that premise;

Isn't this also coupled with the default presumption that the s-type knows what xhe is signing up for...or at least accepts that they are not entirely sure of what they're signing up for, but that they're making an educated gamble?

There are innumerable gripes on threads and profiles everywhere about s-types who are approached with "kneel bitch!" as an introductory message being insulted because they should be treated as having the scruples to discern between D-types worth surrendering to and those not worth surrendering to.

So, I think it's also a "can't have it both ways" to then say that some of the very same potential s-types just may not understand what they're signing up for when they choose to submit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

if a dominant insists they are fully responsible for whatever takes place in the relationship, how then do they have the right to complain when they are held accountable?

I'd say that if there is a notable failure on the D-type's part to exact the goal(s) set forth at the outset (which I'd hope are being talked about by both partners) then we can certainly call them incompetent or poor decision-makers, yes. But I still think there is a bit of a dissonance in the perception of intent between "he sucked at being my dominant and wasn't able to provide what I needed" and "he manipulated me into consenting to things past the point that was at all sensible for me".

I think even the most hardcore of M/s folk still invariably accept that the s-type always has the final vestige of choosing to exit the dynamic. The question is why some choose to disallow themselves that option at times. although, to be fair, this is actually a time when I would place greater responsibility on the D-type to assess if the s-type is actually and noticeably staying begrudgingly so as to decide if he should end what is becoming a facade anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

I do not see this issue as a problem only in D/s or M/s dynamics. Amicable partings are rare in any relationship. Couples who are in the throes of anger during a break up are all too ready to finger point, including those who are very vanilla. Love and hate are not opposites, for they are closely related strong emotions. It is my opinion that the opposite of love is indifference, and that my friend, is a state that only comes with time and healing.

*nod*




NihilusZero -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/17/2009 10:09:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

Greetings Nihilus,

That's far too formal, miss. [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

My willingness to do such reveals a level of power that has been ceded to another that needs to be reclaimed. It may also reflect fears that should be confronted as well. No man should have the power to bring you to your knees unless you long to be on the kneel. Our strides are meant to be long, not broken.

This goes to the heart of it because, underneath all of this, is the question of whether we should naturally treat potential partners as intellectually capable of getting into what they say they want. It's a question of whether a D-type should feel compelled to treat an s-type as empowered by their own self awareness.

Obviously, we each go through evolutions of self-understanding at probably every point in our life, but even if we are changing and morphing, it does not mean we can not be in understanding of where we are at the moment and what we feel we can provide without the delusions of fantasy. And that doesn't even mean we need to relinquish the flighty giddiness and hopes for permanence that we feel every time a pretty new relationship starts...it just means we should understand the bets we make when gambling on that emotional high.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/17/2009 10:16:59 PM)

Kudos for the novel/post, but truthfully... none of this is unique to a BDSM based dynamic/coupling.





marie2 -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/17/2009 10:24:55 PM)

I don't know, Rob, this seems a little too cut and dried.

Sure there are cases where a submissive does something or engages in a relationship then regrets it later and places blame, but I would imagine it happens from the other side of the slash too.

There is manipulation, deceit, and exploitation, and there are mistakes, regrets, poor judgement calls and miscalculations.  None of these things are mutually exclusive, on the contrary, they can sometimes overlap into a blurry area of confusion when one is too close to a situation, or heart-broken when a relationship ends.  I've never really noticed any one particular syndrome out there, just people being people.

Maybe I'm missing the point. 




breatheasone -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/17/2009 10:27:45 PM)

NihilusZero Sir, in my experience, good old fashion commitment has gotten me and my husband through almost everything you speak to. Over the past 26 years, he and i have weathered shit i couldn't have even made up! We have hated, and loved...We have been disgusted, and exhausted. Man, we've just lived...and chose to do it together no mater what. Was it always pretty? perfect? No... Did we grow, learn, and move on...yes. We just made a commitment to do it together is all.




NihilusZero -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/17/2009 11:46:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Kudos for the novel/post, but truthfully... none of this is unique to a BDSM based dynamic/coupling.


Much of it is entirely applicable to all relationships, yes. D/s, however, I think magnifies the leniency in surrendering scruples since the concept of surrender is prevalent as a concept the begin with.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

Sure there are cases where a submissive does something or engages in a relationship then regrets it later and places blame, but I would imagine it happens from the other side of the slash too.

Absolutely. And I would call any instance of it from either side "phantom". I pointed out thing from he perspective I did because I see a tendency of many to side with the submissive in the pity department when the relationship is over.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

There is manipulation, deceit, and exploitation, and there are mistakes, regrets, poor judgement calls and miscalculations.  None of these things are mutually exclusive, on the contrary, they can sometimes overlap into a blurry area of confusion when one is too close to a situation, or heart-broken when a relationship ends.  I've never really noticed any one particular syndrome out there, just people being people.

You haven't noticed any tendency among folks here or people you know or know about to claim MA about their former partners (particularly those who were submissive and even moreso if new to it)? If that's the case, perhaps I should be hanging out with you more often. [;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

Maybe I'm missing the point. 

My point is actually a reiteration of what you just said: people being people. Each person trying to get what they desire from a relationship. The negative tendency of MA clouds that fact by trying to portray others as villains for situations where consent was present throughout.

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

NihilusZero Sir, in my experience, good old fashion commitment has gotten me and my husband through almost everything you speak to. Over the past 26 years, he and i have weathered shit i couldn't have even made up! We have hated, and loved...We have been disgusted, and exhausted. Man, we've just lived...and chose to do it together no mater what. Was it always pretty? perfect? No... Did we grow, learn, and move on...yes. We just made a commitment to do it together is all.

That's a great perspective to tap into, then. Do you feel it is just the personality traits you both have that kept you from demonizing each other when things went wrong (which would have just led to resentment) or do you feel other factors were crucial to both of you being able to move forward in trust and agreement?




breatheasone -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/18/2009 12:04:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
That's a great perspective to tap into, then. Do you feel it is just the personality traits you both have that kept you from demonizing each other when things went wrong (which would have just led to resentment) or do you feel other factors were crucial to both of you being able to move forward in trust and agreement?

i actually have an answer for this LOL.  When my husband and i had been married about a year(he would have been 25 & me 21) i noticed that some of our friends made jokes about "men" "women" "married couples" that were derogatory, or complain about the trials and tribulations of "the wife."  i remember talking to him about it and telling him i thought it was kinda dangerous...he chuckled and asked me why i thought that.... and i said because after awhile, you'll start to believe that stuff....So we talked more, and i said its kinda like negative reinforcement. He actually agreed with me, and from that moment on, he and i said that, not only would we not tear each other down, or complain about each other... We would build each other up...edify each other, and we did. He would compliment me to his friends when there was something to honestly compliment me for....and i did the same.... We also made fighting rules EARLY in our marriage. Those have helped too over the years. Oh and commitment too! did i mention that one already?[;)]




DesFIP -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/18/2009 12:50:02 AM)

Lovely bit of writing but based on a fallacy. There is more that makes something right or wrong than consent.
If you have agreed upon certain ethical and moral guidelines and then you break them, that's a wrong there.




NihilusZero -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/18/2009 1:56:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Lovely bit of writing but based on a fallacy. There is more that makes something right or wrong than consent.
If you have agreed upon certain ethical and moral guidelines and then you break them, that's a wrong there.

That's because it's a pretty safe bet that likely no one is interested in consenting to being lied to.




ranja -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/18/2009 2:09:33 AM)

Manipulation is considered to be negative for some peculiar reason

when i tell my Husband a funny joke and i make Him laugh... i have manipulated Him




Aileen1968 -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/18/2009 4:13:04 AM)

He manipulates me all of the time. It's what I signed up for. I'm not one of those people who over process things. I generally go by the rule of "if it feels right, then it is right". I also go through life knowing that I am ultimately responsible for myself even if that boils down to placing those responsibilities in the hands of another. I am not so insecure that if he started making shit decisions for me that I wouldn't call him on it and leave the relationship. I'm also mature enough to not then place all of the problems on his head. Even as his property, I am still 50% of this relationship.

edited to add...sorry for the rambling. The coffee fairy needs to be fired because she's still in bed. Oh wait. I am the coffee fairy. I suck.




SomethingCatchy -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/18/2009 5:37:23 AM)

The only thing I can add is - Don't be stupid and just jump into something because you're pathetically desperate. Take time to actually know someone before you do anything, so that you have a better idea that they have a back bone and will stand up and say 'I don't want to do that' instead of being a coward and just going along with it. 




marie2 -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/18/2009 6:41:22 AM)




quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Absolutely. And I would call any instance of it from either side "phantom". I pointed out thing from he perspective I did because I see a tendency of many to side with the submissive in the pity department when the relationship is over.


Sometimes a person really does do something deceitful...in fact, it's pretty rampant, among bdsmers as well as non-bdsmers.   I guess some side with the submissive, but I've also seen many a whining submissive out here getting torn a second asshole because they should have been more responsible.

quote:

You haven't noticed any tendency among folks here or people you know or know about to claim MA about their former partners (particularly those who were submissive and even moreso if new to it)? If that's the case, perhaps I should be hanging out with you more often. [;)]


I can't imagine there being too many breathing adults who can't claim that they've had a past relationship in which one partner or the other misrepresented something in order to get what they wanted.   Maybe we see it in the submissives more frequently because they are predominantly female, and females tend to be more vocal and more expressive of their emotions than men do when a relationship ends. Hypothetically speaking, if we were able to contact the male dominant counterpart to every crying submissive out here, they would likely be just as inclined to place blame on the submissive and make claims of wrong-doing as well.   When relationships end, in general,  people need to find fault.  Sometimes, in the cases of deceit and lies etc, there really is fault, other times,well, it's just incompatibility, but most peoples' egos can't handle that.  

There's a little of this and a little of that, and there's no trend of anything going on.  In general, we tend to see the stuff that strikes us personally and resonates with us because of our own personal experiences.  And the stuff that has no personal application tends to get tuned out.

And you definitely should be hanging out with me more often. 




porcelaine -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/18/2009 7:28:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

Greetings Nihilus,

That's far too formal, miss. [:)]


Nihilus,

Are you suggesting that I customize my verbiage for you? [:D]

quote:

This goes to the heart of it because, underneath all of this, is the question of whether we should naturally treat potential partners as intellectually capable of getting into what they say they want. It's a question of whether a D-type should feel compelled to treat an s-type as empowered by their own self awareness.

Obviously, we each go through evolutions of self-understanding at probably every point in our life, but even if we are changing and morphing, it does not mean we can not be in understanding of where we are at the moment and what we feel we can provide without the delusions of fantasy. And that doesn't even mean we need to relinquish the flighty giddiness and hopes for permanence that we feel every time a pretty new relationship starts...it just means we should understand the bets we make when gambling on that emotional high.


I believe both parties are individually responsible for making good decisions. If either chooses to enter a relationship that they later regret or come to realize was inappropriate, the onus isn't on the one in charge because he failed to see this beforehand, but the person that erred in judgment instead. Blame is a double edged sword. An individual can feel we are to blame for their mistakes, but we'll only feel a sense of responsibility if some part of us believes we played a part in the outcome. Otherwise it is nothing more than an accusation.

Relationships are always a gamble, there are no guarantees. People look good on paper and in theory as well. But there are a host of other things that must be factored in called unknowns. Risk assessments are not fallible, you cannot predict everything. I don't believe things fly under the radar as much as some would like to suggest. Nor do I think many are duped, manipulated, or whatever adjective one uses to describe the situation. It was never the choice that was the enemy, but the outcome that failed to compliment the choice that leaves most unsatisfied.

In my opinion relationships are a lot like poker. We each enter the game and are dealt a hand that exists on two levels. The cards we've been given and the invisible ones we carry within us. Which represents wants, needs, desires, the unspoken, and our will. We play them to the best of our ability. But the river card is always a mystery, much like life is as well. Sometimes it works in our favor and others it does not.

I cannot direct my attention to His hand nor the deck. Those are out of my control. By limiting my focus to the cards I hold I'm forced to decide if this hand is worth playing or should I fold. With the understanding that there's a risk that it won't be good enough, I won't win so to speak, but I want to remain in the relationship anyway. It is a choice we all make and one the other person cannot make for you. When we choose to remain in the game we share responsibility for what happens afterward.

It is perfectly acceptable to state our intention at the onset. Exuberance and feelings of euphoria that one might experience when something is new and holds promise is understandable. Where my thinking deviates is how I should respond to these things on a mental and emotional level. Desiring the partnership is fine, but attaching my being to an outcome that's unwritten is not. I'm hopeful, but realistically accept that changes may occur.

I've forsaken that behavior and adapted a different stance that radically shifted my outlook on relationships as a whole. My commitment is invested in both persons having what is best, not what I want instead. In many respects the risk model is much greater when we're relating in this way, but the peace of mind I derive is untold. I allow the other person to define what is best for them and accept and respect their decisions.

If that description does not include me I don't feel anger, because realistically it suggests that He isn't what's best for me either. A negative outpouring of emotion is the result of attaching myself to the person/idea rather than adopting a mindset that included both parties instead. One is selfish, the other more selfless. When you abandon the ego and all its trappings, manifestos and other mechanisms that seek to control and predict are no longer needed. What is best will always win out. It usually does.

~porcelaine




Icarys -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/18/2009 7:49:41 AM)

quote:

This goes to the heart of it because, underneath all of this, is the question of whether we should naturally treat potential partners as intellectually capable of getting into what they say they want. It's a question of whether a D-type should feel compelled to treat an s-type as empowered by their own self awareness.

Obviously, we each go through evolutions of self-understanding at probably every point in our life, but even if we are changing and morphing, it does not mean we can not be in understanding of where we are at the moment and what we feel we can provide without the delusions of fantasy. And that doesn't even mean we need to relinquish the flighty giddiness and hopes for permanence that we feel every time a pretty new relationship starts...it just means we should understand the bets we make when gambling on that emotional high.


This has been a problem in many relationships I've encountered. I treat them as they know who they are and what they want..Most of them profess this outwardly during our initial talks. I'm finding out that at least in more than a few instances involving "self-aware" submissives. They wind up not being self-aware at all but very confused individuals.To me they wind up looking like people who lie to themselves and I'd rather be with someone who's comfortable with truthfully assessing their lives..The search goes on lol.




BossyShoeBitch -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/18/2009 8:00:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
That's a great perspective to tap into, then. Do you feel it is just the personality traits you both have that kept you from demonizing each other when things went wrong (which would have just led to resentment) or do you feel other factors were crucial to both of you being able to move forward in trust and agreement?

i actually have an answer for this LOL.  When my husband and i had been married about a year(he would have been 25 & me 21) i noticed that some of our friends made jokes about "men" "women" "married couples" that were derogatory, or complain about the trials and tribulations of "the wife."  i remember talking to him about it and telling him i thought it was kinda dangerous...he chuckled and asked me why i thought that.... and i said because after awhile, you'll start to believe that stuff....So we talked more, and i said its kinda like negative reinforcement. He actually agreed with me, and from that moment on, he and i said that, not only would we not tear each other down, or complain about each other... We would build each other up...edify each other, and we did. He would compliment me to his friends when there was something to honestly compliment me for....and i did the same.... We also made fighting rules EARLY in our marriage. Those have helped too over the years. Oh and commitment too! did i mention that one already?[;)]



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