RE: The Manipulation Manifesto

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MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/19/2009 12:52:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA Kudos for the novel/post, but truthfully... none of this is unique to a BDSM based dynamic/coupling. Much of it is entirely applicable to all relationships, yes. D/s, however, I think magnifies the leniency in surrendering scruples since the concept of surrender is prevalent as a concept to begin with. You're mixing apples and oranges... the entire basis of your post is what you've termed "Manipulation Accusation (M.A.)" in a D/s dynamic with regard to the Dominant partner; not "Manipulation Potential" in a D/s dynamic with regard to the submissive partner... your own words exemplify this, as well as some flaws: quote: In this narrative I'll be going into the inherent dangers that choosing a D/s or BDSM lifestyle or kink or facet can bring for the dominant partner... the primary concern here lies in the potential for demonization after a bad break-up with a sub and the ever-prevalent accusation of being a "manipulator" and a "user". As you can see, from your opening paragraph, this is the entire basis of your OP. quote: To start with, we should clarify the main concern: manipulation... It is the twisting of past events to put responsibility for the actions that happened on one individual... WRONG. What you've described above is NOT "manipulation". The above may potentially reflect denial, rationaliztion, justification, or even delusion on one's part, but not "manipulation", which is: "The influencing or control of others to your own advantage through skillful and/or deceptive means." And that accusation can be made in ANY relationship... be it true or false... or of the 'nilla or D/s sort. quote: Manipulation is willingly choosing do so something for someone and then deciding at a later date that you wish you hadn't. No... that is REGRET, not "manipulation"... and most (in any type of relationship) feel some regret after a relationship ends. Thus, in summary, while I agree the opportunity for an unscrupulous Dominant to "manipulate" an eager submissive can be potentially higher in a power dynamic (which was NOT the theme of your OP), the potential for the ACCUSATION of "manipulation" (which WAS the theme of your OP), I feel, applies EQUALLY to ANY relationship; be it of the 'nilla or D/s sort. Remember, anyone can feel "manipulated" over the smallest or largest of things. As an aside, I've personally found more of what you've termed "Manipulation Accusation" on the 'nilla side, as many subs/slaves tend to blame themselves (not their former Dominant) for the failing of a past relationship... but again, that's just been my personal observation.

LadyPact -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/19/2009 2:57:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: master4bornslv I have to ask who told you that as a sub or slave that you will be responcible for actions done at your Masters or Mistress orders, or the things He/SHE manipulates you to do for him or her? When a Master or Mistress controls a slave or a sub HE the Master or SHE the Mistress is, or at least should be responcible for any outside consequences of you doing as HE or SHE commands, just as HE or SHE will reap any pleasures or benefits of said control or manipulations He commands of you I only have a minute, so I'll make this one quick. If I command My slave to rip off a car, which one of use do you think is going to jail?

Hierodule -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/19/2009 2:58:23 PM)
exactly.

Elisabella -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/19/2009 4:13:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: master4bornslv I have to ask who told you that as a sub or slave that you will be responcible for actions done at your Masters or Mistress orders, or the things He/SHE manipulates you to do for him or her? When a Master or Mistress controls a slave or a sub HE the Master or SHE the Mistress is, or at least should be responcible for any outside consequences of you doing as HE or SHE commands, just as HE or SHE will reap any pleasures or benefits of said control or manipulations He commands of you I only have a minute, so I'll make this one quick. If I command My slave to rip off a car, which one of use do you think is going to jail? Both of you. Possibly you'd get a longer term if it's showed that your incitement to commit a crime was done deliberately while he committed the act in a state of diminished capacity. Either way you'd be a co-conspirator.

LadyPact -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/19/2009 4:25:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: master4bornslv I have to ask who told you that as a sub or slave that you will be responcible for actions done at your Masters or Mistress orders, or the things He/SHE manipulates you to do for him or her? When a Master or Mistress controls a slave or a sub HE the Master or SHE the Mistress is, or at least should be responcible for any outside consequences of you doing as HE or SHE commands, just as HE or SHE will reap any pleasures or benefits of said control or manipulations He commands of you I only have a minute, so I'll make this one quick. If I command My slave to rip off a car, which one of use do you think is going to jail? Both of you. Possibly you'd get a longer term if it's showed that your incitement to commit a crime was done deliberately while he committed the act in a state of diminished capacity. Either way you'd be a co-conspirator. Diminished capacity? You have got to be kidding.

Elisabella -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/19/2009 5:04:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: master4bornslv I have to ask who told you that as a sub or slave that you will be responcible for actions done at your Masters or Mistress orders, or the things He/SHE manipulates you to do for him or her? When a Master or Mistress controls a slave or a sub HE the Master or SHE the Mistress is, or at least should be responcible for any outside consequences of you doing as HE or SHE commands, just as HE or SHE will reap any pleasures or benefits of said control or manipulations He commands of you I only have a minute, so I'll make this one quick. If I command My slave to rip off a car, which one of use do you think is going to jail? Both of you. Possibly you'd get a longer term if it's showed that your incitement to commit a crime was done deliberately while he committed the act in a state of diminished capacity. Either way you'd be a co-conspirator. Diminished capacity? You have got to be kidding. I'd guess it depends on your location, whether they'd recognize the power dynamic involved or view it more like an egalitarian relationship. The word 'slave' is a strong one. If he had a lawyer worth even the wages paid as a public defender, the court would hear a sob story about how he was ordered to do so by a domineering woman he was in a relationship with who would regularly beat him for fun or if he didn't obey her orders, and while he regrets his action he did so out of fear. That while he did willingly enter into the relationship he never expected it would turn out like this and that when he was ordered to commit the crime he was so trained to never say no to this woman his fear of being beaten made him obey. Get the right judge and he'll serve a month or two less than you would for deliberately engaging another person to commit a criminal act on your behalf.

LadyPact -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/19/2009 5:42:27 PM)
In a quick look on the subject, only a very few number of states permit a diminished capacity defense. In the few that do, it is used most often in regard to murder. From what I'm reading, it has to be linked to mental incapacity in some way. Mental disability law, evidence, and ... - Google Books

Elisabella -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/19/2009 5:59:52 PM)
That was actually an interesting read. So it would probably be unlikely that he'd be acquited, but I still think you'd be charged as well. But I think we're getting away from the point...I'd just ask, in a TPE relationship, what is the concept of "mastery"? If one person has mastered another person's will, is the mastered person still acting freely? Or in other words, does it ever reach a point where the "Yes Mistress" or "Yes Master" becomes second nature, where it's not a conscious choice to submit but rather the result of one's personality being conditioned. People are able to lose their free will when faced with a charismatic cult leader. Why is a charismatic Dom/me any different?

Hierodule -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/19/2009 6:00:39 PM)
When it comes to something like that proving that the other person ordered the action could be very tough. Unless they recorded their Dominant giving them the order it would be a case of "he said she said." Even proving the power dynamic existed would be difficult. "But S/he had scary sex toys/tourtue devices in her bedroom" So S/he likes kinky sex how does that prove s/he ordered you to steal a car? "But s/he had the accused on a leash. At a party!" It was fetish party. what does this have to do with the car? Its a ridiculous hypothetical. But Sometimes you have to takes things to the nth degree of ridiculousness just to show the truth of something that should be obvious.

Elisabella -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/19/2009 6:12:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hierodule When it comes to something like that proving that the other person ordered the action could be very tough. Unless they recorded their Dominant giving them the order it would be a case of "he said she said." Even proving the power dynamic existed would be difficult. "But S/he had scary sex toys/tourtue devices in her bedroom" So S/he likes kinky sex how does that prove s/he ordered you to steal a car? "But s/he had the accused on a leash. At a party!" It was fetish party. what does this have to do with the car? Its a ridiculous hypothetical. But Sometimes you have to takes things to the nth degree of ridiculousness just to show the truth of something that should be obvious. And if it's not just whips and leashes? If it's broken bones and black eyes and "My Master has the right to kill me if he wants to" - situations that I've seen posted about on this site, that plenty of people have defended as no more than consensual kink. It does seem ridiculous when you say "steal a car or I'll put you in latex" - it sounds less ridiculous if the submissive knows the consequences will be a bruised face and broken ribs.

Hierodule -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/19/2009 6:15:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella But I think we're getting away from the point...I'd just ask, in a TPE relationship, what is the concept of "mastery"? If one person has mastered another person's will, is the mastered person still acting freely? Freedom, or lack there of, has nothing to do wit it. Just because you aren't making the decisions for yourself anymore doesn't mean that you can eliminate cause and effect. If the Master orders the slave to go to work 15 minutes late everyday, the slave is the one who is going to be fired not the Master. There is no Master so powerful and charismatic that they can eliminate consequences. quote: Or in other words, does it ever reach a point where the "Yes Mistress" or "Yes Master" becomes second nature, where it's not a conscious choice to submit but rather the result of one's personality being conditioned. Surely, however, in submitting to and consenting to that kind of conditioning you take responsibility for everything the person you submitted to decides to use your conditioning for.Like I said, any Master who uses this kind of blind obedience for evil instead of good better also be prepared for the consesquences of their misuse of power. If the slave accusses them of manipulation later or not. The consequences of the Master's and the slave's actions can not be avoided. quote: People are able to lose their free will when faced with a charismatic cult leader. Why is a charismatic Dom/me any different? Its not different. Thats why Sqeaky Fromme just got realeased from prison after some 30 so years, and Manson is still behind bars. No one absolved her for being manipulated. They were both charged and convicted.

Hierodule -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/19/2009 6:20:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: Hierodule When it comes to something like that proving that the other person ordered the action could be very tough. Unless they recorded their Dominant giving them the order it would be a case of "he said she said." Even proving the power dynamic existed would be difficult. "But S/he had scary sex toys/tourtue devices in her bedroom" So S/he likes kinky sex how does that prove s/he ordered you to steal a car? "But s/he had the accused on a leash. At a party!" It was fetish party. what does this have to do with the car? Its a ridiculous hypothetical. But Sometimes you have to takes things to the nth degree of ridiculousness just to show the truth of something that should be obvious. And if it's not just whips and leashes? If it's broken bones and black eyes and "My Master has the right to kill me if he wants to" - situations that I've seen posted about on this site, that plenty of people have defended as no more than consensual kink. It does seem ridiculous when you say "steal a car or I'll put you in latex" - it sounds less ridiculous if the submissive knows the consequences will be a bruised face and broken ribs. If it has gotten to that point, the slave should be calling the police or out the door. That's where I would be. I wouldn't be stealing cars for the asshole that broke my ribs that's for damn sure. Here's me "You want me to steal that Ferarri or you will break my ribs again? Yes Master." That's when I go outside make like I'm stealing the car, but actually head straight to the police station. But hey I guess my level of submission isn't as deep as some other's.

LadyPact -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/19/2009 6:23:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella That was actually an interesting read. So it would probably be unlikely that he'd be acquited, but I still think you'd be charged as well. But I think we're getting away from the point...I'd just ask, in a TPE relationship, what is the concept of "mastery"? If one person has mastered another person's will, is the mastered person still acting freely? Or in other words, does it ever reach a point where the "Yes Mistress" or "Yes Master" becomes second nature, where it's not a conscious choice to submit but rather the result of one's personality being conditioned. People are able to lose their free will when faced with a charismatic cult leader. Why is a charismatic Dom/me any different? I happen to think these are very good questions. I think the answers are going to vary according to how they feel on it personally. For Me, I just don't see it as My boy losing his free will just because he is expected to obey. The collar on his neck can come off just as easily as it went on, if he would chose to do so. If I were, for some reason, to give him such a ridiculous command as to steal a car, I would hope he would remove it. For no other reason than the fact that I'm obviously willing for him to suffer the harmful consequences of such an act. What kind of Dominant would I really be if I valued him that little? In My opinion, both sides of the kneel have to go into this stuff with their eyes wide open. Even that's not foolproof. I do know people who have gotten out of dynamics that lasted years and when it was over tried to have the Dominant legally prosecuted for the S/m activities that occurred while they were together. It didn't fly, but it sure as hell makes one's head spin.

NuevaVida -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/19/2009 11:20:50 PM)
quote: Manipulation is willingly choosing do so something for someone and then deciding at a later date that you wish you hadn't. I have to agree with MasterSlaveLA that this is regret, not manipulation. What one does with that regret, however, may or may not be manipulation...or spite...or anything else. I look back on my last relationship and have "WTF??" moments, particularly when remembering certain things I allowed to engage in with him, due to my belief of what I should be and what that should mean. There are things I wish I had not experienced, and things I hope and plan to never experience again. There is nothing manipulative about that statement; it is simply how I feel. How I dealt with it, however, was not to run around talking about the big bad dude who did XYZ. How I dealt with it was to process the "Why?" questions for myself, so I could understand where I was then, where I want to go, and where I don't want to go. Why was that OK with me back then? Why is it not OK with me now? Etc. No manipulation. Just processing and self analyzing.

ranja -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/20/2009 1:24:44 AM)
"People are able to lose their free will when faced with a charismatic cult leader" Jezus... I think most people should not wash their brains... for they are just fine dirty

leadership527 -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/23/2009 1:03:43 PM)
OK, a few random points about this posting... a) It is ALWAYS manipulation. I cannot help but manipulate Carol. Hell, I couldn't even before the collar. Nor can she avoid doing so with me. The bottom line is that our actions have consequences on those around us. I don't try to avoid manipulation, I embrace it. What I avoid is covert actions, hidden agendas, and secret goals. In other words, I manipulate Carol shamelessly, but I do so openly and with her consent every step of the way. The fact that it is ALWAYS manipulation leaves the door open to accusations of same later on. b) Breakups always suck. No matter the type of relationship, break ups suck. They leave a ton of hurt feelings. Childish personalities that are prone to demonization based upon those hurt feelings are just that... children. It doesn't matter whether we're talking boyfriend and girlfriend or master and slave. Lots and lots of vanilla marriages break up and there are heaps of accusations tossed in both directions. Why should an M/s relationship be any different? One of the things I clue into MOST CLOSELY when I am looking at a person as a potential mate is how they refer to their past partners. Do they see both the good AND the bad in the people and relationships or do they turn it into the blame game. Anyone who likes to play the blame game is not for me. c) Speaking personally as Carol's master, I am, in fact, responsible. She actually HAS ceded authority to me. With authority goes responsibility. Hence, I actually AM responsible at this point. If it doesn't work, it actually IS my fault. As you have oft-noted, Carol and I have long track record so many issues are not issues for us. But anyone who got to a similar state of authority no matter how they came by it would also bear the responsilbity I bear. d) The negative type of manipulation you are decrying is real. The bottom line is that Carol is a very submissive personality who trusts me a lot. Put those two things together and you've got a recipe for VAST amounts of influence. I could be totally above boards, yet still influence her in directions which are unhealthy for her. I'm not altogether clear that she could avoid that influence until the situation got so dramatic that it exploded at which point she would quite correctly acuse me of manipulating her. Using one specific example, Carol is a fundamentally monogamous woman who has agreed that part of "total" is who she sleeps with and who I sleep with. Now, if I were to use that authority in a way which harmed her, I have been clear and above board, but still harmed her. I'm not certain that she actually could've avoided agreeing to that type of control given the nature of our relationship. Note, Carol is not stupid. She's actually pretty wise... learned a few things along her 54 years. But you just can't ignore the consequences of a submissive and dominant personality in tight proximity coupled with large respect. I'm generally good at manipulating people and those things are like the tools of the gods. I basically have a wide open and mostly unedited conduit right into her world view. I do not treat Carol as fully being able to consent... not if I was intent on railroading her. I think the answer to the unstated question here NZ is that it all comes down to picking your partners carefully. It also comes down to having a clear conscience yourself. People can always throw crap at you, the question is whether or not it sticks.

CaringandReal -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/23/2009 7:30:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal How does a submissive remain competently responsible for herself and yet submit absolutely to the will of another? The same way we are responsible for making payments on our credit cars even years after maxing them out. The responsibility is twofold: one, in understanding the consequences and byproducts choosing to surrender incurs (particularly in the choice of whom to surrender to) and, two, in being (as the s-type) responsible in determining if the one's own headspace is conducive to what is required and what is expected from the dynamic. In any relationship, after a mistake by our partner, we choose whether to suck it up, figure out how to gain closure from the specific event, and move on. Or we decide the error is too big to be forgiven and we decide that the relationship, on a fundamental level, is irreparable and we choose to leave. This responsibility isn't ever actually erased from an s-type because the freedom to leave is always available (even if the choice to relinquish it has been made...which, again, is a choice that requires being responsible for what that will entail). I don't think we're talking about the same sorts of responsibility. Here's what I meant: if a dominant I am in a relationship with orders me not to pay my credit card bills, even if my cards are maxed out, even if I know that will get me into much bigger financial and even legal trouble later, do I do the "responsible" thing, which is to ignore his orders, pay my bills, and keep my self solvent? (shakes head) No, I don't do that, I never do that, it doesn't work that way for me. I have given him the control to order me do anything he wants, so I abdicate what i know is my responisbilty and my desire to steer clear of trouble. It's far more important to me to obey him than to be responsible in the sense of constantly vigilant and only obey what commands make sense to me persronally. That goes against all the sense of total power exchange to be vigilent in that way. If I've trusted the dominant enough to be his slave, then I carry through, I shut my eyes and jump off the cliff if he orders it. Without thinking about it because if I thought I might hesitate. And if I hesitated I might disobey. In this sort of situation, I expect the person wielding that level of control will also assume some responsibility along with it to make up for that which I cannot assume and also obey his orders at the same time.

sravaka -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/23/2009 7:55:40 PM)
I hesitate to intrude... but totally agree with this (and with Jeff above). You can't have it both ways-- have a slave and expect her to remain responsible. A sub? Ok. A prospective slave, with whom you are still working out the parameters of the relationship? Maybe, and/or, I hope so (though a good part of working this out falls to the domly party too, for good or ill.) The fact that the OP, dearest NZ, refers largely to D/s relationships and/or WIITWD (even vaguer)... leaves the balance of responsibiity open to question, and thereby makes the whole very difficult to assess productively. "What it is that we do" encompasses everything from the most casual play partners to the deepest most permanent slavitude. (so to speak) "Manipulation" at one end of the spectrum is very different from the same at the other. You can, after all, consent to be manipulated. Personally? I hate ex post facto re-readings of situations that one walked into willingly, even if one walked into them cluelessly. I think one needs to own one's cluelessness and move forward without adding unduly to the carnage. Or, maybe this is the crux of it.... there's cluelessness about the other guy (the dom, particularly if he is misrepresenting or not adequately representing something or other) vs. cluelessness about oneself and one's capacity for obedience or surrender. In the latter case, I'm rather thoroughly onboard with the OP-- it is not the dominant's fault, and the submissive is rather at fault for being out playing in traffic before s/he is ready to do so. But more often that not? I suspect the fault is shared. ::shrug:: 2 random cents. sravaka

heartfeltsub -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/24/2009 8:03:45 AM)
In comparing this thread about an accusation of manipulation and another thread were a submissive was accused by her Dominant of being manipulative, it appears this OP has a different standard of accusations of manipulation whether they are coming from a submissive or a Dominant. In the one thread, the OP told the submissive in question that she should apologize even though she made (in her words) no willful/knowing attempt to manipulate her Dominants actions. But in that instance, the determination of whether or not one was being manipulated was all a matter of how that submissive's actions made the Dominant feel. And in this thread, it appears that the OP thinks all accusations of manipulation coming from a submissive are just an attempt to deflect any responsibility that they have for choosing to submit to a certain individual and obeying the commands that that person issues and that no actual manipulation actually occurs. i find that difference very interesting. i guess one has to indentify as a Dominant to be able to level an accusation of manipulation.

Lucienne -> RE: The Manipulation Manifesto (11/24/2009 8:58:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub i find that difference very interesting. i guess one has to indentify as a Dominant to be able to level an accusation of manipulation. While I appreciate your observations, I'm going to skip over most of the commentary it invites and take a broader look at the issue. From my reading of the OP's posts, in this and other threads, I get the impression that he has what I will call an unenforceably broad notion of consent that illustrates that his position is not hypocritical as much as based on paradox in his worldview. What I mean by unenforceable... I can enter into a non-compete agreement with my boss. That non-compete can be as broad as the boss wants it to be. It can say that if I leave the boss' employ that I can't work for any competitor anywhere on earth for two years after. Both parties agreed to it knowing exactly what it said. But if I leave, and get a job the next week with a competitor that's on the other side of the country, no court will enforce that non-compete agreement. Because such agreements need to be reasonable in their geographical and time restrictions. Not a perfect analogy, I know, but please work with me here. In the case of a woman signing up to be the OP's slave, it seems that he thinks he does an adequate job of explaining the terms and that once she's consented, she can't claim manipulation of something she consented to. The analogy to the non-compete agreement is not in her deciding to leave the relationship and go elsewhere, it's in her turning to others in a social context and asking to be recognized as having been manipulated despite the broad consent that she gave. And instead of judge's looking at the reasonableness of time and place restrictions, individuals in a social context will consider how reasonable are the terms she consented to. I'd think the less detailed the terms, the more likely an average person is to agree that exercising power given through blanket consent is fraught with opportunity for manipulation, witting or otherwise. Again, I know it's not a great analogy. And people don't have the power of judges to enforce anything. But the OP seems bothered by the social responses that accept claims of manipulation from subs/slaves who knowingly entered into the relationship. E.g.if you've knowingly entered into a relationship where the Master is the last word, and he tells you that you were being manipulative, then you should reorient yourself to seeing things from his perspective. Personally, I think such a relationship is highly likely to lead to the Master manipulating the slave, unless the Master is receiving continuing input from the slave regarding her mindset and responses. If you always have the last word and you take it early, unless you're a mindreader, you're probably going to end up taking that slave to places she doesn't want to go. If that slave comes to me and says she feels manipulated, I'm going to consider whether or not the blanket consent offered was exercised reasonably. I think that position holds both parties responsible for their actions.

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