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RE: Climategate - 11/29/2009 2:06:45 PM   
Kirata


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~ FR ~

NO DATA

TimesOnline

Scientists at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based. It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years. The UEA’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU) was forced to reveal the loss following requests for the data under Freedom of Information legislation.

The CRU is the world’s leading centre for reconstructing past climate and temperatures. Climate change sceptics have long been keen to examine exactly how its data were compiled. That is now impossible. Roger Pielke, professor of environmental studies at Colorado University, discovered data had been lost when he asked for original records. “The CRU is basically saying, ‘Trust us’. So much for settling questions and resolving debates with science,” he said.


K.

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RE: Climategate - 11/29/2009 8:57:01 PM   
TheHeretic


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FR

ABC at least has decided to cover the story...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/scientist-leaked-climate-mails-distraction/story?id=9178656

A controversy over leaked e-mails exchanged among global warming scientists is part of a "smear campaign" to derail next month's United Nations climate summit in Copenhagen, one of the scientists, meteorologist Michael Mann, said Tuesday. Unknown hackers illegally broke into a server last week at the climate institute at Britain's University of East Anglia. The hackers then published hundreds of candid private messages in which top climate change specialists debate how to address recent data showing temperatures leveling off, the university says.


Should I post this on the bias thread too, maybe?

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RE: Climategate - 11/29/2009 9:05:44 PM   
Sanity


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Yes, post it over there, it belongs.

This clearly falls under the age-old, 'if its clearly biased but someone who is biased the same way can't see the bias, is it really biased' category.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

ABC at least has decided to cover the story...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/scientist-leaked-climate-mails-distraction/story?id=9178656

A controversy over leaked e-mails exchanged among global warming scientists is part of a "smear campaign" to derail next month's United Nations climate summit in Copenhagen, one of the scientists, meteorologist Michael Mann, said Tuesday. Unknown hackers illegally broke into a server last week at the climate institute at Britain's University of East Anglia. The hackers then published hundreds of candid private messages in which top climate change specialists debate how to address recent data showing temperatures leveling off, the university says.


Should I post this on the bias thread too, maybe?


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RE: Climategate - 11/29/2009 9:23:27 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

ABC at least has decided to cover the story...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/scientist-leaked-climate-mails-distraction/story?id=9178656

A controversy over leaked e-mails exchanged among global warming scientists is part of a "smear campaign" to derail next month's United Nations climate summit in Copenhagen, one of the scientists, meteorologist Michael Mann, said Tuesday. Unknown hackers illegally broke into a server last week at the climate institute at Britain's University of East Anglia. The hackers then published hundreds of candid private messages in which top climate change specialists debate how to address recent data showing temperatures leveling off, the university says.


Should I post this on the bias thread too, maybe?


Does it also count as bias when someone cherry-picks one paragraph to claim bias?

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RE: Climategate - 11/29/2009 9:33:56 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

There are plenty of credible scientists that dispute the data, and the Hadley CRU admits that the emails are real. There is no lack of credibility.


The hacked e-mails were between researchers at East Anglia University Climate Research Unit.

Where does the Hadley Centre come into play?




Oh dear God...  The Hadley CRU is the University of East Anglia's climate dept. 
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/


Wilbur, if you are going to feed the trolls, try not to give them your whole arm...


I didn't know trying to clarify a question was trolling.

I posted a link detailing the Hadley Centre's history.

It said nothing about East Anglia as has been claimed.

Now you post a link for East Anglia where I see nothing about Hadley.

Can you point it out for me?

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RE: Climategate - 11/29/2009 10:32:19 PM   
TheHeretic


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It's called a "lead," RML.  Wikipedia should be sufficient (try looking under "journalism).  Meanwhile, my error from the initial news reports only points out how much wider the climaquiddick scandal really is than initially proposed. 



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RE: Climategate - 11/29/2009 11:24:58 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

It's called a "lead," RML.  Wikipedia should be sufficient (try looking under "journalism).  Meanwhile, my error from the initial news reports only points out how much wider the climaquiddick scandal really is than initially proposed. 



Yes, and then they went on to give what I thought was a balanced view of both sides of the issue.

So, I don't think you could call it biased.



< Message edited by rulemylife -- 11/29/2009 11:27:18 PM >

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RE: Climategate - 11/29/2009 11:31:06 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Meanwhile, my error from the initial news reports only points out how much wider the climaquiddick scandal really is than initially proposed. 



I'll respond to this one separately.

If the initial news reports were from conservative bloggers who did not even get the basic facts right, then why is everyone so willing to believe their interpretations of the memos?

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RE: Climategate - 11/29/2009 11:54:28 PM   
PenOnBeadedChain


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quote:

No, the scientists who specialize in the area dont agree and honest debate is far from over. There are hundreds of scientists that have totally disagreed, and via the character assasination/guilt by association tactics revealed in the emails, their opinions have been discounted by the MSM.


No, the MSM is ignoring these "honest debaters" (who more often than not are simply on the payroll of Big Oil) because they make up roughly 3% of actively working (publishing) climate scientists:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090119210532.htm

They ignore their opinions because every major domestic and international scientific organization is in agreement with the consensus on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

They ignore these industry flaks because they only have so much space to devote to every conspiracy-theory group around, and they gave them too much of a soapbox already for too many years with their false-balance approach to journalism ("and now a rebuttal to our weather report from the sun-rises-in-the-west contingent") .

As for "climategate", it's been a nice opportunity for a denial crowd in its death throes to have one last go at quoting a bunch of sentences out of context (something they've become all too good at over the years) and then having an echo-chamber orgy over them. Nary a one attending that orgy seems to have made the slightest attempt to understand what that "trick" to "hide the decline" was all about (for example). There are plenty of honest science pages out there explaining what that's about and why it's perfectly legitimate. They just want to have the usual ears-plugged, eyes-covered wild rumpus they've been having all along. Well have fun kids, but don't get in the way.

It's time to face reality and move forward on this thing. GHGs have a residence time of several decades in the atmosphere. You simply cannot wait till the ecosystem starts falling visibly to pieces around you. This is an ocean liner that cannot be turned on a dime when every last one of you all finally see that there is a floating iceberg (broken off the Larsen ice sheet) ten feet from the starboard bow.

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RE: Climategate - 11/30/2009 7:31:15 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PenOnBeadedChain

quote:

No, the scientists who specialize in the area dont agree and honest debate is far from over. There are hundreds of scientists that have totally disagreed, and via the character assasination/guilt by association tactics revealed in the emails, their opinions have been discounted by the MSM.


No, the MSM is ignoring these "honest debaters" (who more often than not are simply on the payroll of Big Oil) because they make up roughly 3% of actively working (publishing) climate scientists:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090119210532.htm

They ignore their opinions because every major domestic and international scientific organization is in agreement with the consensus on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

They ignore these industry flaks because they only have so much space to devote to every conspiracy-theory group around, and they gave them too much of a soapbox already for too many years with their false-balance approach to journalism ("and now a rebuttal to our weather report from the sun-rises-in-the-west contingent") .

As for "climategate", it's been a nice opportunity for a denial crowd in its death throes to have one last go at quoting a bunch of sentences out of context (something they've become all too good at over the years) and then having an echo-chamber orgy over them. Nary a one attending that orgy seems to have made the slightest attempt to understand what that "trick" to "hide the decline" was all about (for example). There are plenty of honest science pages out there explaining what that's about and why it's perfectly legitimate. They just want to have the usual ears-plugged, eyes-covered wild rumpus they've been having all along. Well have fun kids, but don't get in the way.

It's time to face reality and move forward on this thing. GHGs have a residence time of several decades in the atmosphere. You simply cannot wait till the ecosystem starts falling visibly to pieces around you. This is an ocean liner that cannot be turned on a dime when every last one of you all finally see that there is a floating iceberg (broken off the Larsen ice sheet) ten feet from the starboard bow.


I must say, I've rarely seen a more pertinent example of a "true believer".

First, the important thing to understand is that the basis of belief that temperatures have risen in the last 100 or so years is based almost exclusively on data and work that was gathered at the UEA’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU). That data was "lost" by the same people who unequivocally have been caught in discussions about how to disobey FOIA release requirements of that same publicly funded data.

There is no primary source data for the belief in AGW temperature changes, and there are now strong indications of an attempted cover up of this fact.

Whether there was a "real" conspiracy, or just the normal bumblings of people trying to muddle their way through a professional career, making slight mistakes in judgement after slight mistakes of judgement so that over time they were supporting a massive hypothesis on little data, fudged data, or wrong data is really immaterial.

Science is about the ability to review the data, the replication of results, and checks against such normal human attempts to "personally invest" in a belief or hypothesis.

If your data is shown to be incorrect, inadequate or simply missing from the equation, then it's a "belief" about AGW, and it is no longer "science".

Ever heard the tale of the Emperor's New Clothes?

Firm

btw, nice scare tactic at the end of your post. Another good indication of "belief" versus "science". (We gotta scare the rubes!)



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RE: Climategate - 11/30/2009 7:35:28 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

It's called a "lead," RML.  Wikipedia should be sufficient (try looking under "journalism). 


Just FYI, if you're gonna send him looking--the correct term is "lede."

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RE: Climategate - 11/30/2009 9:26:22 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

ABC at least has decided to cover the story...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/scientist-leaked-climate-mails-distraction/story?id=9178656

A controversy over leaked e-mails exchanged among global warming scientists is part of a "smear campaign" to derail next month's United Nations climate summit in Copenhagen, one of the scientists, meteorologist Michael Mann, said Tuesday. Unknown hackers illegally broke into a server last week at the climate institute at Britain's University of East Anglia. The hackers then published hundreds of candid private messages in which top climate change specialists debate how to address recent data showing temperatures leveling off, the university says.


Should I post this on the bias thread too, maybe?



The "U.N.", that figures.
Wasn't it the "U.N." that tried to foist that KYOTO thing on U.S. Taxpayers?
When are we (the U.S.) going to start getting out of things like the "U.N.?" There's a whole list of "orgs" and "free trade" things that *politicians* got us in and that the American People would certainly vote to get us out of if they had the chance.


It's time to face reality and move forward on this thing. GHGs have a residence time of several decades in the atmosphere. You simply cannot wait till the ecosystem starts falling visibly to pieces around you. This is an ocean liner that cannot be turned on a dime when every last one of you all finally see that there is a floating iceberg (broken off the Larsen ice sheet) ten feet from the starboard bow.


Now *THAT's* really funny!
Sounds like a Car Salesman closing in for the kill!
"It's time to BUY NOW!" ("move forward on this thing") "These cars/trucks don't stay on the lot for very long!" "You can't wait another day and let the deal fall apart." ("you simply cannot wait till the ecosystem starts falling visably to pieces around you.")
"This deal won't last another day!" (The "Oceanliner metaphor")
"We don't even have them in all the colors anymore." ( "They'll stop making them next week!")
Wow! "the Larsen ice sheet" lolol What a fuckin' Sales Job that is!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/30/2009 9:41:41 AM >


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RE: Climategate - 11/30/2009 9:48:07 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
The "U.N.", that figures.
Wasn't it the "U.N." that tried to foist that KYOTO thing on U.S. Taxpayers?

No, that was Al Gore. He signed it, and then Bush spent eight years ignoring it.

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RE: Climategate - 11/30/2009 10:04:58 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
The "U.N.", that figures.
Wasn't it the "U.N." that tried to foist that KYOTO thing on U.S. Taxpayers?

No, that was Al Gore. He signed it, and then Bush spent eight years ignoring it.



Moon, I seem to remember a 99 to 0 vote against it in the senate.


I'm still laughing about that above! lol
"Buy this Bullshit we're trying to sell you NOW!!!"

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/30/2009 10:07:10 AM >


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RE: Climategate - 11/30/2009 10:11:43 AM   
Moonhead


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No idea if it was voted on or not, to be honest. The main thing that I remember (as an evil lefty) is that Bush made a big deal of stating that he didn't care if the prior management had signed it, he was going to ignore it.

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RE: Climategate - 11/30/2009 10:14:29 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
The "U.N.", that figures.
Wasn't it the "U.N." that tried to foist that KYOTO thing on U.S. Taxpayers?
No, that was Al Gore. He signed it, and then Bush spent eight years ignoring it.


ummm, Well based upon some of the representations made on these climate threads; Al Gore abilities and intelligence were always in question. In light of the disclosures, and the 'scientists' losing their 'homework' it appears Gore's stupidity trumped Bush's.

Who would have thought that was the case considering all that's been said about the messiah. You know, put in context, its understandable how Christ could go in one week from hearing "Hosanna! Hosanna!" to "Crucify him!". And that was BEFORE the internet! People start to expect miracles like walking on water, or an ice shelf to break under its own weight on cue every day.

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RE: Climategate - 11/30/2009 10:25:11 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No idea if it was voted on or not, to be honest. The main thing that I remember (as an evil lefty) is that Bush made a big deal of stating that he didn't care if the prior management had signed it, he was going to ignore it.



Moon, even Ted Kennedy and John "French" Kerry voted against it.
And, no president is bound by what a previous president "said." They wouldn't be able to do the job if they were!

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RE: Climategate - 11/30/2009 10:28:45 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

And, no president is bound by what a previous president "said." They wouldn't be able to do the job if they were!


That does, though, make reaching any agreement with the U.S. essentially pointless.


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RE: Climategate - 11/30/2009 10:30:42 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No idea if it was voted on or not, to be honest. The main thing that I remember (as an evil lefty) is that Bush made a big deal of stating that he didn't care if the prior management had signed it, he was going to ignore it.



Moon, even Ted Kennedy and John "French" Kerry voted against it.
And, no president is bound by what a previous president "said." They wouldn't be able to do the job if they were!

So why are you still in the UN, then? Whoever signed you into that is long gone by now.

_____________________________

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RE: Climategate - 11/30/2009 10:37:20 AM   
FirmhandKY


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FR:

Climate change: this is the worst scientific scandal of our generation
By Christopher Booker
Published: 6:10PM GMT 28 Nov 2009

Extracts:

quote:

...

The reason why even the Guardian's George Monbiot has expressed total shock and dismay at the picture revealed by the documents is that their authors are not just any old bunch of academics. Their importance cannot be overestimated, What we are looking at here is the small group of scientists who have for years been more influential in driving the worldwide alarm over global warming than any others, not least through the role they play at the heart of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

Professor Philip Jones, the CRU's director, is in charge of the two key sets of data used by the IPCC to draw up its reports. Through its link to the Hadley Centre, part of the UK Met Office, which selects most of the IPCC's key scientific contributors, his global temperature record is the most important of the four sets of temperature data on which the IPCC and governments rely – not least for their predictions that the world will warm to catastrophic levels unless trillions of dollars are spent to avert it.

Dr Jones is also a key part of the closely knit group of American and British scientists responsible for promoting that picture of world temperatures conveyed by Michael Mann's "hockey stick" graph which 10 years ago turned climate history on its head by showing that, after 1,000 years of decline, global temperatures have recently shot up to their highest level in recorded history.

Given star billing by the IPCC, not least for the way it appeared to eliminate the long-accepted Mediaeval Warm Period when temperatures were higher they are today, the graph became the central icon of the entire man-made global warming movement.

Since 2003, however, when the statistical methods used to create the "hockey stick" were first exposed as fundamentally flawed by an expert Canadian statistician Steve McIntyre , an increasingly heated battle has been raging between Mann's supporters, calling themselves "the Hockey Team", and McIntyre and his own allies, as they have ever more devastatingly called into question the entire statistical basis on which the IPCC and CRU construct their case.

The senders and recipients of the leaked CRU emails constitute a cast list of the IPCC's scientific elite, including not just the "Hockey Team", such as Dr Mann himself, Dr Jones and his CRU colleague Keith Briffa, but Ben Santer, responsible for a highly controversial rewriting of key passages in the IPCC's 1995 report; Kevin Trenberth, who similarly controversially pushed the IPCC into scaremongering over hurricane activity; and Gavin Schmidt, right-hand man to Al Gore's ally Dr James Hansen, whose own GISS record of surface temperature data is second in importance only to that of the CRU itself.

There are three threads in particular in the leaked documents which have sent a shock wave through informed observers across the world. Perhaps the most obvious, as lucidly put together by Willis Eschenbach (see McIntyre's blog Climate Audit and Anthony Watt's blog Watts Up With That ), is the highly disturbing series of emails which show how Dr Jones and his colleagues have for years been discussing the devious tactics whereby they could avoid releasing their data to outsiders under freedom of information laws.

This in itself has become a major scandal, not least Dr Jones's refusal to release the basic data from which the CRU derives its hugely influential temperature record, which culminated last summer in his startling claim that much of the data from all over the world had simply got "lost". Most incriminating of all are the emails in which scientists are advised to delete large chunks of data, which, when this is done after receipt of a freedom of information request, is a criminal offence.

But the question which inevitably arises from this systematic refusal to release their data is – what is it that these scientists seem so anxious to hide? The second and most shocking revelation of the leaked documents is how they show the scientists trying to manipulate data through their tortuous computer programmes, always to point in only the one desired direction – to lower past temperatures and to "adjust" recent temperatures upwards, in order to convey the impression of an accelerated warming. This comes up so often (not least in the documents relating to computer data in the Harry Read Me file) that it becomes the most disturbing single element of the entire story. This is what Mr McIntyre caught Dr Hansen doing with his GISS temperature record last year (after which Hansen was forced to revise his record), and two further shocking examples have now come to light from Australia and New Zealand.

In each of these countries it has been possible for local scientists to compare the official temperature record with the original data on which it was supposedly based. In each case it is clear that the same trick has been played – to turn an essentially flat temperature chart into a graph which shows temperatures steadily rising. And in each case this manipulation was carried out under the influence of the CRU.

What is tragically evident from the Harry Read Me file is the picture it gives of the CRU scientists hopelessly at sea with the complex computer programmes they had devised to contort their data in the approved direction, more than once expressing their own desperation at how difficult it was to get the desired results.

The third shocking revelation of these documents is the ruthless way in which these academics have been determined to silence any expert questioning of the findings they have arrived at by such dubious methods – not just by refusing to disclose their basic data but by discrediting and freezing out any scientific journal which dares to publish their critics' work. It seems they are prepared to stop at nothing to stifle scientific debate in this way, not least by ensuring that no dissenting research should find its way into the pages of IPCC reports.

...


***




Climate change data dumpedThe Sunday Times
November 29, 2009
Jonathan Leake, Environment Editor

quote:

SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years.

The UEA’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU) was forced to reveal the loss following requests for the data under Freedom of Information legislation.

The data were gathered from weather stations around the world and then adjusted to take account of variables in the way they were collected. The revised figures were kept, but the originals — stored on paper and magnetic tape — were dumped to save space when the CRU moved to a new building.

The admission follows the leaking of a thousand private emails sent and received by Professor Phil Jones, the CRU’s director. In them he discusses thwarting climate sceptics seeking access to such data.

In a statement on its website, the CRU said: “We do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (quality controlled and homogenised) data.”

The CRU is the world’s leading centre for reconstructing past climate and temperatures. Climate change sceptics have long been keen to examine exactly how its data were compiled. That is now impossible.

...


***



Again ... no data, no science.

Firm


< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 11/30/2009 10:38:32 AM >


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