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RE: Climategate - 12/4/2009 8:44:59 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

CO2 is not a pollutant.


CO2 in the political spotlight


Carbon dioxide has taken center stage in the environmental arena in recent months.

In August of 2003 the US Administration reversed the 1998 decision of the previous administration, which had classified carbon dioxide as a pollutant, and made it subject to the provisions of the Clean Air Act. As a result of the reversal of the 1998 decision, automobile manufacturers and power plants have been able to avoid making costly modifications that would have been required under the 1998 ruling.

In 2006 environmental groups pushed for legislation that would reinstate carbon dioxide as a pollutant. In August of 2006 EPA General Counsel Robert Fabricant concluded that since the Clean Air Act does not specifically authorize regulation to address climate change, CO2 is not a pollutant (1).

The reason given for not classifying CO2 as a pollutant is based upon the fact that it is a natural component of the atmosphere and needed by plants in order to carry out photosynthesis. No one would argue the fact that carbon dioxide is a necessary component of the atmosphere any more than one would argue the fact that Vitamin D is necessary in the human diet.

However, excess Vitamin D in the diet can be extremely toxic (6). Living systems, be they an ecosystem or an organism, require that a delicate balance be maintained between certain elements and/or compounds in order for the system to function normally. When one substance is present in excess and as a result threatens the wellbeing of an ecosystem, it becomes toxic, and could be considered to be a pollutant, despite the fact that it is required in small quantities.

(CO2 Pollution and Global Warming: When does carbon dioxide become ...)

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: Climategate - 12/4/2009 8:51:30 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
I don't agree it's an intentional conspiracy.



We're on the same page, though I think the impact of largely insulated communities and the herd mentality might be producing a more un-intentional one.

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RE: Climategate - 12/4/2009 9:00:49 PM   
Sanity


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Read the post again, you don't understand what was claimed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity




quote:


For 14 straight days, the three broadcast networks have failed to report on the great and growing ClimateGate scandal on their weekday morning or evening news programs.  How to explain this?

Perhaps it is that ABC, NBC and CBS have not yet heard of the story, despite two weeks of non-stop reporting on and discussion of ClimateGate in a whole host of media outlets...

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/nb-staff/2009/12/04/bozell-maybe-networks-dont-know-about-climategate-well-send-them-news-bike






quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Fallout Over "ClimateGate" Data Leak Grows - Taking Liberties ..
Dec 2, 2009 ... Ripples From Flap Over Leaked Global Warming Files Spread To Penn State, Copenhagen, and Washington, DC.
www.cbsnews.com


Published on a website, NOT broadcast on the morning or evening news.

quote:


Democrats: "ClimateGate" Leak A Non-Scandal - Taking Liberties ...Dec 2, 2009 ... White House And Rep. Markey Try To Downplay Leaked Files, Saying Global Warming Is Settled And A "Catastrophic Threat To Our Planet".
www.cbsnews.com


Published on a website, NOT broadcast on the morning or evening news.

quote:


NBC's Williams adopts right-wing "Climategate" smear: "Have the ...Dec 4, 2009 ... From the December 4 edition of NBC's Nightly News with Brian Williams


December 4th? Why, thats' right now, isn't it.

quote:


Stephanopoulos: ClimateGate Complicates Copenhagen for Obama ...Nov 29, 2009 ... ABC's George Stephanopoulos actually brought up the ClimateGate scandal as a topic for discussion during the Roundtable segment on Sunday's ...
newsbusters.org/


Not the evening or morning news broadcast.

quote:
'Climategate': Global Warming Battle over Scientists' Hacked E ...Dec 4, 2009 ... Just days before a major global warming conference in Copenhagen, scientists and politicians are instead preoccupied with more than 1000 ...
abcnews


Published on a website, NOT broadcast on the morning or evening news.

quote:


YouTube - CNN on ClimategateNov 25, 2009 ... An online debate over global warming science has broken out after an unknown hacker broke into the e-mail server at a prominent


CNN wasn't mentioned.

quote:


msnbc tv-msnbc tv: Climategate? Alleged e-mails fuel warming ...msnbc tv-msnbc tv: Climategate? Alleged e-mails fuel warming debate Video on AOL Video - Nov. 25: Martin Savidge of PBS WorldFocus joins the Morning Joe


MSNBC wasn't mentioned.

quote:
MSNBC's Dylan Ratigan Slams ClimateGate Fakery: When Will NBC Do ...Dec 4, 2009 ... MSNBC's Dylan Ratigan on Friday aggressively took on the subject of ClimateGate, informing a global warming scientist that the "perceived ...
newsbusters.org



MSNBC wasn't mentioned.


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(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Climategate - 12/4/2009 9:19:54 PM   
Sanity


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Your post illustrates perfectly that the decision to classify carbon dioxide as a poison was purely a political one, by definition. To one administration it wasn't and by the next one it was... in other words, a president saying so doesn't make it science, it makes it politics.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
CO2 in the political spotlight


Carbon dioxide has taken center stage in the environmental arena in recent months.

In August of 2003 the US Administration reversed the 1998 decision of the previous administration, which had classified carbon dioxide as a pollutant, and made it subject to the provisions of the Clean Air Act. As a result of the reversal of the 1998 decision,..



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RE: Climategate - 12/4/2009 9:35:32 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Your post illustrates perfectly that the decision to classify carbon dioxide as a poison was purely a political one, by definition. To one administration it wasn't and by the next one it was... in other words, a president saying so doesn't make it science, it makes it politics.


How surprising that it wasn't considered to be a pollutant by the Bush administration.

The administration that fought to roll back every possible environmental regulation that it deemed even slightly harmful to industrial and business interests.

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RE: Climategate - 12/4/2009 10:06:43 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Your post illustrates perfectly that the decision to classify carbon dioxide as a poison was purely a political one, by definition. To one administration it wasn't and by the next one it was... in other words, a president saying so doesn't make it science, it makes it politics


....no necessarily logical there Sanity.

The original decision, the one not to treat it as a pollutant was the political decision. The decision to treat it as the pollutant it so evidently is, is the decision based on science.
Just because one decision is based on political expediency doesn't mean that all decisions on the same matter are also politically expedient.

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RE: Climategate - 12/4/2009 10:45:59 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

The original decision, the one not to treat it as a pollutant was the political decision. The decision to treat it as the pollutant it so evidently is, is the decision based on science.

I guess that depends on how you interpret the phrase, "based on science."

In its decision, the EPA stressed that it considers CO2 and other so-called greenhouse gases to be pollutants because of their role in propagating climate change, not because of any direct health effects.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/4/2009 10:47:46 PM >

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Climategate - 12/5/2009 4:08:18 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I guess that depends on how you interpret the phrase, "based on science."

In its decision, the EPA stressed that it considers CO2 and other so-called greenhouse gases to be pollutants because of their role in propagating climate change, not because of any direct health effects.



Since when does a pollutant have to create direct negative health effects to be considered a pollutant?


pollutant

A substance or condition that contaminates air, water, or soil. Pollutants can be artificial substances, such as pesticides and PCBs, or naturally occurring substances, such as oil or carbon dioxide, that occur in harmful concentrations in a given environment. Heat transmitted to natural waterways through warm-water discharge from power plants and uncontained radioactivity from nuclear wastes are also considered pollutants.


The American Heritage® Science Dictionary






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 12/5/2009 4:12:48 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Climategate - 12/5/2009 10:29:22 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Since when does a pollutant have to create direct negative health effects to be considered a pollutant?

Did I say that it did? I must have missed that. Paste it for me?

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/5/2009 10:30:33 AM >

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RE: Climategate - 12/5/2009 10:38:11 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


There is no evidence that CO2 is harmful to the environment



....riiiiight.

Acid rain.




Acid rain and CO2? rofl

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 310
RE: Climategate - 12/5/2009 10:44:21 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, someone whos math skills do not extend beyond the laffer curve may not see any connections with reality, but heres the equation:

"Acid rain" is a popular term referring to the deposition of wet (rain, snow, sleet, fog and cloudwater, dew) and dry (acidifying particles and gases) acidic components. A more accurate term is “acid deposition”.

Distilled water, which contains no carbon dioxide, has a neutral pH of 7. Liquids with a pH less than 7 are acidic, and those with a pH greater than 7 are bases. “Clean” or unpolluted rain has a slightly acidic pH of about 5.2, because carbon dioxide and water in the air react together to form carbonic acid, a weak acid (pH 5.6 in distilled water), but unpolluted rain also contains other chemicals.[1]

H2O (l) + CO2 (g) → H2CO3 (aq)
Carbonic acid then can ionize in water forming low concentrations of hydronium and carbonate ions:

2 H2O (l) + H2CO3 (aq) CO32− (aq) + 2 H3O+ (aq)
Acid deposition as an environmental issue would include additional acids to H2CO3.



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RE: Climategate - 12/5/2009 11:07:45 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yes, someone whos math skills do not extend beyond the laffer curve may not see any connections with reality, but heres the equation:

"Acid rain" is a popular term referring to the deposition of wet (rain, snow, sleet, fog and cloudwater, dew) and dry (acidifying particles and gases) acidic components. A more accurate term is “acid deposition”.

Distilled water, which contains no carbon dioxide, has a neutral pH of 7. Liquids with a pH less than 7 are acidic, and those with a pH greater than 7 are bases. “Clean” or unpolluted rain has a slightly acidic pH of about 5.2, because carbon dioxide and water in the air react together to form carbonic acid, a weak acid (pH 5.6 in distilled water), but unpolluted rain also contains other chemicals.[1]

H2O (l) + CO2 (g) → H2CO3 (aq)
Carbonic acid then can ionize in water forming low concentrations of hydronium and carbonate ions:

2 H2O (l) + H2CO3 (aq) CO32− (aq) + 2 H3O+ (aq)
Acid deposition as an environmental issue would include additional acids to H2CO3.



Yeah, that Oxygen is a real deadly mofo.  It causes fires, and all kinds of explosions.

It's one of the most reactive substances known to man, isn't it?

I think we should ban it.  It's polluting up our entire environment, and it causes all kinds of out-of-control conflagrations, explosions, intense heat ....

Hell, just think ... without Oxygen, the World Trade Center would never have burned, and fallen ...

All those burn victims that would never have had to go to the hospital ....

Wars would end without the big "O" ....

Ban Oxygen for World Peace NOW!

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 12/5/2009 11:09:02 AM >

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RE: Climategate - 12/5/2009 11:11:14 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Is that your Wilbur impression, Firm? LOL. Pretty good.

Ron

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RE: Climategate - 12/5/2009 11:13:09 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Is that your Wilbur impression, Firm? LOL. Pretty good.

Ron

Not really directed to you personally, Ron, just that you gave a good example to make my point.

Oxygen is a worse "pollutant" than Carbon Dioxide.  In fact, CO2 wouldn't even exist, if it weren't for the ready availability of that evil Oxygen!

Firm


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RE: Climategate - 12/5/2009 11:25:53 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Is that your Wilbur impression, Firm? LOL. Pretty good.

Ron

Not really directed to you personally, Ron, just that you gave a good example to make my point.

Oxygen is a worse "pollutant" than Carbon Dioxide.  In fact, CO2 wouldn't even exist, if it weren't for the ready availability of that evil Oxygen!

Firm




Since you quoted him I saw utterfool's response, so I'll respond.

the acidity of rain has been on the decline since the Clean Air Act, despite the increase in CO2 emissions. Why? Because acid rain still requires an abundance of SO2, which has been reduced under that Act. Claiming that CO2 is "forcing" wrt acid rain is as much horseshit as that it is forcing wrt temperature.

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RE: Climategate - 12/5/2009 11:29:17 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		But you make a point that hasnt any point, Firm.

Sodium or Chlorine is deadly to humans, so what? NaCl is table salt. Salt is necessary.

Carbon Dioxide is valuable shit, it makes things grow, it needs to be put in the ground (mostly) to be useful, it is hazardous in the air in great quantity, Oxygen is necessary as well and is not free in the air in great quantity, and pure carbon is grand shit, hell, drinking is fun it don't mean that you can pour a couple bottles of Jamesons up your ass and have a good time.


Moderation.

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RE: Climategate - 12/5/2009 11:32:45 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Just to clarify...are you guys claiming acid rain doesn't exist?

If so, join me for some backpacking. We won't be fishing.

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RE: Climategate - 12/5/2009 11:38:04 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Just to clarify...are you guys claiming acid rain doesn't exist?

If so, join me for some backpacking. We won't be fishing.


I'm not, just that it has been declining despite the increase in CO2, which was the incorrect claim in support of CO2 being a "pollutant". The recognized pollutants involved in acid rain are SO2 and NO. As someone else posted, the on again off again classification of CO2 as a pollutant is political, with the latest being its supposed effect on global warming. Ignoring the fact that CO2 increases FOLLOW temperature increases, and are not causal.

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RE: Climategate - 12/5/2009 11:50:01 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		acid rain is not declining.

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Profile   Post #: 319
RE: Climategate - 12/5/2009 12:35:52 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

the on again off again classification of CO2 as a pollutant is political, with the latest being its supposed effect on global warming. Ignoring the fact that CO2 increases FOLLOW temperature increases, and are not causal.

From my reading, it appears that the warming effect of higher levels of CO2 is mediated by water vapor. CO2 by itself apparently contributes very little, comparatively. The problem is, the little that it does contribute acts as a "lever" by increasing the atmosphere's capacity to hold water vapor, which in turn has a major effect on temperature.

We should expect from this that the effect of a higher atmospheric CO2 concentration by itself would mainly be seen in areas where it is extremely cold, i.e., where the CO2 "lever" can't get much of a bite on atmospheric water vapor. And this seems to be played out in the warming we've seen in the Arctic, while the continental United States has been booking record low temperatures and more tropical climates have not warmed as much as projected.

The reasons for this are a subject of debate, and it does pose a problem for the "global" part of the hypothesis. But even with that said, the consequences of melting ice caps are nothing to be ignored, regardless of whether or not the rest of the globe warms as much as projected. Unfortunately, however, the critical unanswered questions, as even the EPA acknowledges, are "how much" and "how fast". And that's the rub, because there's more than one way to wreak havoc and misery on ourselves here.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/5/2009 12:44:54 PM >

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