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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/22/2009 6:02:04 PM   
Aileen1968


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From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		He likened it, one day, to being at a buffet. He figured we owed it to ourselves to sample a little bit of everything. Seconds and thirds on the stuff we really liked. I think it boils down to trust and love for us. He loves me and I know he will never hurt me.

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/22/2009 6:44:01 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

If you're topping from the bottom then he's allowing that to happen or it wouldn't be happening in the first place. The very idea of topping from the bottom just personally makes me cringe for me and my relationship.


I don't want to come across like I'm picking on you, because it isn't my intent. But I am adamant in my beliefs that discussion and negotiation isn't topping from the bottom. It is communication. And every relationship, D/s or not, needs it to survive.

Now if you get off on always doing everything he wants you to, then you are still actively chosing to do it. It is still your free will choice. In the end, you have as much power in the relationship as him as he needs you to obey him in order to be in this dynamic.

- LA

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/22/2009 6:46:48 PM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

If you're topping from the bottom then he's allowing that to happen or it wouldn't be happening in the first place. The very idea of topping from the bottom just personally makes me cringe for me and my relationship.


I don't want to come across like I'm picking on you, because it isn't my intent. But I am adamant in my beliefs that discussion and negotiation isn't topping from the bottom. It is communication. And every relationship, D/s or not, needs it to survive.

Now if you get off on always doing everything he wants you to, then you are still actively chosing to do it. It is still your free will choice. In the end, you have as much power in the relationship as him as he needs you to obey him in order to be in this dynamic.

- LA

i agree with you. my Master and i have a similar relationship. We talk, We learn, We grow....He leads, i follow.... He asks, i answer...i speak up, He listens.... etc.....

< Message edited by breatheasone -- 11/22/2009 6:47:45 PM >

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/22/2009 8:46:05 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Like Topsy, ours just grew.
How could I have known then that 8 years later I would be doing half the things I do. Or that he would be asked to handle some of the things he has.

Yup, me too. We never made any sort of agreement. But then again, we'd been a couple for 13 years before a collar enetered into the picture. What on god's earth would we possibly have put in some agreement that wasn't already thoroughly known through past behavior. Although, I suppose we DO have an agreement. Specifically, the agreement is that she is to be mine and I'll try not to be an ass.

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/22/2009 8:58:03 PM   
sweetsub1957


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

If you wanted to look at it that way, then I would say that, minimally, it starts from agreement and goes into obedience once certain connections have been made.



What She said.

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 1:50:12 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Right but I guess what I'm saying is do you have the ability to say "No, I won't do that" as a declarative statement with no further discussion, and not have that end the relationship or feel like 'topping from the bottom'?


Ha. I tell him that all of the time. He gets a glint in his eye and does it anyway if it's something that he wants to do. In the end, I'm still alive and safe. No worse for the wear and realize that I may have just discovered a new turn on. It can't work with just anyone. It has to be with someone who cares about me, loves me and ultimately would never harm me. He wants to take me to more and more intense levels and I love an trust him enough to go. Saying no only serves to keep us with our feet on the ground.


I'm glad it works for you but to me that would still be wondering if those things would be enough to end the relationship over...I can say in theory "If he doesn't respect my limits and my genuine no's then the relationship is over" but when it happens I'd probably hesitate and question if it was bad enough to leave over so I'd just give way...do that 100 times and somehow you find yourself in a relationship you don't want to be in anymore.

I like being able to say no and have it respected.

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 2:42:31 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I would never get into an obedience-based relationship because every time something bothered me I'd have to ask myself "is this worth breaking up over" rather than attempting to reach a compromise.


Forgive Me for speaking My piece here, but is that what you really think it is?  An obedience based dynamic isn't an all or nothing proposition.  It doesn't mean that people never grow, never change, never have new wants or want to turn away from past wants that no longer suit them. Obedience is not automatically resigning oneself to becoming stagnant.  Instead, some, like Me, see it as a cornerstone, on which other things can be built.



I agree. Just because he tells me or expects me to do something doesn't mean I can't express an opinion or an option that he may not have thought of. I tell him things that I would like to try or do all of the time. I also tell him things that I don't want to try or do. He has the final say, but he always listens to my thoughts and desires.


Right but I guess what I'm saying is do you have the ability to say "No, I won't do that" as a declarative statement with no further discussion, and not have that end the relationship or feel like 'topping from the bottom'?


I have the ability to say *no, I won't do that* but not the *will* to. Apart from anything else it would be too silly to just say *no* and refuse to discuss. It would certainly end my relationship as it stands if I did that.

It wouldn't be topping from the bottom, it would be withdrawing the authority I gave him. If I wanted to retain the *right* to decide what I will or won't do, then I chose the wrong type of  relationship with the wrong man, because that wasn't on offer and isn't what I agreed to all those years ago.

agirl



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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 3:01:27 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Right but I guess what I'm saying is do you have the ability to say "No, I won't do that" as a declarative statement with no further discussion, and not have that end the relationship or feel like 'topping from the bottom'?


Ha. I tell him that all of the time. He gets a glint in his eye and does it anyway if it's something that he wants to do. In the end, I'm still alive and safe. No worse for the wear and realize that I may have just discovered a new turn on. It can't work with just anyone. It has to be with someone who cares about me, loves me and ultimately would never harm me. He wants to take me to more and more intense levels and I love an trust him enough to go. Saying no only serves to keep us with our feet on the ground.


I'm glad it works for you but to me that would still be wondering if those things would be enough to end the relationship over...I can say in theory "If he doesn't respect my limits and my genuine no's then the relationship is over" but when it happens I'd probably hesitate and question if it was bad enough to leave over so I'd just give way...do that 100 times and somehow you find yourself in a relationship you don't want to be in anymore.

I like being able to say no and have it respected.

Slow down just for a second.  I think you're projecting a bit and some of it seems to be fear based.

An obedience based dynamic isn't necessarily devoid of the ability of the s type to say no.  It doesn't mean your hard limits are cast to the wind or no longer respected.  At least it shouldn't be in My opinion.  You're in better company than you think.

Recently on another thread, we were discussing the outrageous possibility of what would happen if I commanded My boy to steal a car.  Even though he and I are involved in an obedience based dynamic, I would absolutely expect him to say no.  This is based on his common sense and knowing the potential cause and effect of such an action. 

Do I think that clip worries a 100 times a day what would happen if I told him to steal a car and he said no?  Actually, I don't.  I doubt the thought has ever crossed his mind, with the exception of the discussion that he and I had regarding that other thread.  Before I specifically brought it up, the concept never entered his day to day existence.

That is the part that I think you might be jumping ahead to a bit quickly.  The part about getting to know the person on the other side of the kneel and finding the fit that works for you.  That delicious mix of a person who can read into you and make the distinctions of areas of growth as opposed to the things that will never be right for you.  The joys of exploration while still maintaining your core beliefs so that you are not harmed in some way.  It really is possible to obtain that.


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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 3:13:28 AM   
Aileen1968


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From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I'm glad it works for you but to me that would still be wondering if those things would be enough to end the relationship over...I can say in theory "If he doesn't respect my limits and my genuine no's then the relationship is over" but when it happens I'd probably hesitate and question if it was bad enough to leave over so I'd just give way...do that 100 times and somehow you find yourself in a relationship you don't want to be in anymore.

I like being able to say no and have it respected.


I entered into our relationship knowing that the foundation of it was that I do what he says. As simple as that. It helps that he is level headed and rational and it also helps that I get off big time on not having any choices. It works for us. For me to say no and mean it means I want to walk away. I tell him no no no no no all of the time...as I'm doing it or as he's doing what he wants to me. I'm usually smiling or cuming the entire time.

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 3:31:24 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I'm glad it works for you but to me that would still be wondering if those things would be enough to end the relationship over...I can say in theory "If he doesn't respect my limits and my genuine no's then the relationship is over" but when it happens I'd probably hesitate and question if it was bad enough to leave over so I'd just give way...do that 100 times and somehow you find yourself in a relationship you don't want to be in anymore.

I like being able to say no and have it respected.


I entered into our relationship knowing that the foundation of it was that I do what he says. As simple as that. It helps that he is level headed and rational and it also helps that I get off big time on not having any choices. It works for us. For me to say no and mean it means I want to walk away. I tell him no no no no no all of the time...as I'm doing it or as he's doing what he wants to me. I'm usually smiling or cuming the entire time.


Heh...I'm not knocking your relationship...I said in my earlier post that I personally wouldn't get involved in a relationship like this for exactly this reason - "for me to say no and mean it means I want to walk away" because like I said before, I wouldn't want to have to decide if every problem that arose was worth breaking up over.

I'm honestly glad it works for you and I'm happy that you're happy. It's just not for me

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 3:39:58 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

That is the part that I think you might be jumping ahead to a bit quickly.  The part about getting to know the person on the other side of the kneel and finding the fit that works for you.  That delicious mix of a person who can read into you and make the distinctions of areas of growth as opposed to the things that will never be right for you.  The joys of exploration while still maintaining your core beliefs so that you are not harmed in some way.  It really is possible to obtain that.
[/color]


I think we're getting caught up in semantics...to me that's an agreement type thing, agreeing to submit to him in abc areas provided he doesn't do xyz, even if he's interested in xyz. That more of what I said before, a 'tacit agreement' based relationship, rather than a total "they say, I obey" dynamic or a written contract.

To me, "I don't want to, so no" is a valid reason to not do something...of course that also takes into account that I'm not going to *use* that reason for every little thing. "I don't want to go do laundry" would be a ridiculous thing to put my foot down over, sure I might not want to do it but it needs to get done. Same with, say, oral sex...I don't *want* to do it but I'm not going to say no over it.

However, waking up in the morning and feeling a bit sick, then I'll say "no" to oral sex and I don't want it to be a case of "he will change his mind because it might affect my well being" but rather a case of "I said no and I meant it. So no."

Obviously it's up to me when I say a "no means no" thing and if I brought it up for every single thing I just didn't want to do then I wouldn't have any sort of good relationship at all...but it does matter to me that saying no will be respected, even if I only say that "no" once a year. I'm sure it's nice to have that feeling of "my Dom/me won't make me do anything that affects my well being" but I prefer maintaining some autonomy and some right to say no, simply because I don't want to.

Totally just my thing, you know?

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 3:43:21 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I'm glad it works for you but to me that would still be wondering if those things would be enough to end the relationship over...I can say in theory "If he doesn't respect my limits and my genuine no's then the relationship is over" but when it happens I'd probably hesitate and question if it was bad enough to leave over so I'd just give way...do that 100 times and somehow you find yourself in a relationship you don't want to be in anymore.

I like being able to say no and have it respected.


The part you may be missing is that there is no NEED to say *no*, due, as LadyPact said below, to being with someone that ALSO doesn't want to force the end of the relationship either.

It would take some ridiculously crazy request (such as the steal a car thing or suffocate your granny) to cause me to say *no* and in that case, HE would be bringing the relationship to an end himself.

There's nothing on an everyday level that I *can't* obey or do, even if I don't want to. He's not out to put me through hell, destroy or harm me, quite the opposite. He certainly challenges me on a regular basis but those are the times when I discover all sorts of amazing things, along with the discomfort.....and we get to know even MORE about each other.

agirl

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 3:52:49 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
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From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
I think it boils down to trust and love for us. He loves me and I know he will never hurt me.


I think I would rephrase this to "he loves you and you know he will never deliberately hurt you." The problem here is that if he believes you are strong enough to do something and it turns out you aren't, then he will hurt you.  And then what?

I'm not that strong or resilient. It is possible to hurt me. The only person who knows how I'm feeling emotionally or physically is me. So if I say that doing x would be harmful to me or to my trust in him, I need him to believe what I say. Him doing it anyway would be to say to me that he didn't care if he harmed me and ended the relationship.

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 3:53:35 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

  1. Do you feel there is a difference between the two relationships? Why or why not?


From how it has been written out, I'd say one is (for the want of using labels) the way people differentiate between submissive and slave.

quote:

If so, do you feel that, perhaps, we all enter into agreement-based relationships in the beginning of our exploration and look more to the obedience relationships later?


Not necessarily but I do see the obedience relationship being a later extention for some people.
the.dark.

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 3:54:42 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

That is the part that I think you might be jumping ahead to a bit quickly.  The part about getting to know the person on the other side of the kneel and finding the fit that works for you.  That delicious mix of a person who can read into you and make the distinctions of areas of growth as opposed to the things that will never be right for you.  The joys of exploration while still maintaining your core beliefs so that you are not harmed in some way.  It really is possible to obtain that.



I think we're getting caught up in semantics...to me that's an agreement type thing, agreeing to submit to him in abc areas provided he doesn't do xyz, even if he's interested in xyz. That more of what I said before, a 'tacit agreement' based relationship, rather than a total "they say, I obey" dynamic or a written contract.

To me, "I don't want to, so no" is a valid reason to not do something...of course that also takes into account that I'm not going to *use* that reason for every little thing. "I don't want to go do laundry" would be a ridiculous thing to put my foot down over, sure I might not want to do it but it needs to get done. Same with, say, oral sex...I don't *want* to do it but I'm not going to say no over it.

However, waking up in the morning and feeling a bit sick, then I'll say "no" to oral sex and I don't want it to be a case of "he will change his mind because it might affect my well being" but rather a case of "I said no and I meant it. So no."

Obviously it's up to me when I say a "no means no" thing and if I brought it up for every single thing I just didn't want to do then I wouldn't have any sort of good relationship at all...but it does matter to me that saying no will be respected, even if I only say that "no" once a year. I'm sure it's nice to have that feeling of "my Dom/me won't make me do anything that affects my well being" but I prefer maintaining some autonomy and some right to say no, simply because I don't want to.

Totally just my thing, you know?


Yes, I do know.  In My way, I think we are talking about too many hypotheticals at the same time.  LOL.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 7:06:25 AM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		I often describe myself as obedience driven and generally do as I'm told.  Sir's known this about me from the beginning, though early on, we negotiated our relationship.  One of the things I agreed to was obedience and he agreed, in spirit, to give orders I could obey without harm to myself, our relationship or anybody else.   Some of the back story includes the fact that he was a new Dominant and I was coming out of a lousy relationship where I did obey without question.  I wasn't in a very trusting place and he was still feeling his way as a dominant.  We did a lot of negotiation and re-negotiation while we got to know each other and what worked for us as a couple.  

You could, if you wanted, substitute the word 'communication' for negotiation.  Or, look at it as a very conscious trial and error process as we experimented with different things to find what worked and what didn't.  Or, invoke the idea of reflexive practice where we were continually reflected on our practice of D/s.  In any case, 'obedience' has always been the foundation of our relationship but, by itself, this doesn't say a whole lot or provide much insight into the nuts and bolts of how we operate.  Its a bit abstract.  The whole negotiation/communication/trial and error process is necessary to flesh out the details and make it concrete.

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 8:09:54 AM   
lucylucy


Posts: 612
Joined: 3/1/2009
Status: offline 		A lot of people have already expressed similar ideas, so I’ll keep this short. I would characterize my relationship as obedience-based with a very limited option to negotiate. What I mean is this: if my boyfriend makes a decision that I have a really serious issue with, I can say, “I’d like to talk about this first.” He then decides if we’re going to talk about it, and then if we do talk about it, I go into the discussion with no expectations of him changing his decision. I abide by his decision in the end, whether I agree with the decision or not.

Like DesFIP said (sorry if this paraphrase is bad), relationships evolve around the unexpected life events that come up. My boyfriend has changed the rules on me a few times without notice and I’ve been unhappy about it, but I obeyed, and in hindsight see that he had good reasons for changing the rules. Trusting that he has good reasons, even when I don’t know what they are, helps me obey when I don’t “want” to, and I haven’t ever regretted my obedience.


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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 8:16:17 AM   
kanina


Posts: 147
Joined: 11/19/2009
Status: offline 		usually i obey with no problem but if we are going to do something that maybe more dangerouse or is going to be very hard we talk about it...

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 10:56:06 AM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
...He gets a glint in his eye and does it anyway if it's something that he wants to do. In the end, I'm still alive and safe. No worse for the wear and realize that I may have just discovered a new turn on.


I once stated to Kim that the next day she would be doing so and so. She asked me, teasingly, "Are you ordering me to do that?"
I responded with, "Not at all, I am just letting you know what it is you will be doing."

She kinda enjoyed that.

So I guess you could say we have an agreement that we are obedience based.

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RE: Agreement Vs Obedience - 11/23/2009 11:00:48 AM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl
You could, if you wanted, substitute the word 'communication' for negotiation. 


I missed this post, but think it sums up how we operate.
I sometimes select what Kim wears, suggest how she fix her hair, and usually order her meals for her when we go out. Its not a random bit of bullying, its based on the years we have been together, to where I know exactly what she likes, what she looks good in, and what is good for her. Likewise, she knows precisely how i like dinners cooked, what I am feeling and needing at the moment i need it, based on her knowledge of me.

Negotiation sounds like some contrived artifice; communication is a better word.

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