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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 8:48:38 PM

michaelGA

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IMHO...some people just can't help but be rude and judgemental

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 8:58:57 PM

truesub4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

The Civil War was about slavery. No ifs ands or buts about it, and only Southern revisionists ever try to deny it.

I do not expect you to agree with me on anything I say... but I do expect you to show me the same respect I show you. <That idiot in the White House excluded> We're not all idiots. And I do not recall any name calling in my post.

But I guess when dealing with the narrow minded... I can't expect them to see past their own arrogance.

The one thing I have noticed over past 3-4 days lately on CM.. is that most seems to have found their place to come and all of a sudden be judgemental over each other... either it be because of freedom of speech... where they're from.... how they think.... what they eat.... how they walk... dress....who they serve... how they serve... so much for the fun place to be...

And yes, I'm not above no one on here.. i've been right in on this too... this is how come I can take notice to my own actions... and change what I say and do.... So while you sit and hash out who thinks they're better than the next one... I'm going to go find a fun post to have a happy debate/discussion with... and let this childish BS come to an end for me....

Skips off happily knowing that tomorrow is another day and no matter what anyone thinks of her...she's happy within herself..... waves bye bye to this thread and other ones like it....

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 9:00:26 PM

Lordandmaster

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I don't remember calling you an idiot. What are you talking about?

quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

The Civil War was about slavery. No ifs ands or buts about it, and only Southern revisionists ever try to deny it.

I do not expect you to agree with me on anything I say... but I do expect you to show me the same respect I show you. <That idiot in the White House excluded> We're not all idiots. And I do not recall any name calling in my post.

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 9:01:11 PM

angelic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yes, I've read the history books. It was a war of rebellion--because the Union was going to prevent the South from keeping slaves. It was a war of secession--because the Union was going to prevent the South from keeping slaves. It was a war of Southern independence--because the Union was going to prevent the South from keeping slaves.

Want to continue with the other lame apologist theories that have been bandied about? It was a war pitting two irreconcilable economies against each other. Right. One of them was a slave economy. It was a war for Southern honor. Right. Southern honor was stained because the Union was going to prevent the South from keeping slaves. It was a war over electoral votes in the new territories. Right. The South seceded because the addition of free states would destroy its stranglehold on Congress--and then the Union would prevent the South from keeping slaves.

The Civil War was about slavery. No ifs ands or buts about it, and only Southern revisionists ever try to deny it. (That is, after all, why us crude uncultured Yankee types dislike seeing the Stars and Bars when we're on vacation in places like the Outer Banks.) Here's the acid test: if the Union had made ANY kind of compromise that would have allowed slavery to continue in the South, there would never have been a secession and therefore no Civil War. The Union knew this, too. War could easily have been avoided--at the cost of keeping the Slave State in place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

OMFG... Re-read history books please.... Civil War was NOT ONLY about the right to maintain slaves. Is that all everyone learned from the Civil War?????

It was a War of Rebellion..... War Of Secession.... War for Southern Independence.. I know slavery was involved.. played for SOME a major role.. but NOT it's the sole reason!

odd (imo) that you are arguing so vehemently about slavery... yet... if one was to look at Your profile, Sir... they would see You seek a slave...

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 9:03:35 PM

Lordandmaster

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I wouldn't have thought it was necessary to explain that the slavery of the antebellum South is not the same thing as the slavery on Collarme.

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 9:16:20 PM

angelic

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i disagree, Sir... do not mistake what i am saying... i am very proud that i am who i am...

If You look about Yourself, You are surrounded by Many that OWN slaves here... Many of Them i personally have a great deal of respect for, They are Wise and Kind... however, they OWN Their slaves... as they are that... slaves...

To seek a slave in the here and now but then turn around and blame a part of our history on that which You currently seek... is imho hypocrasy.

just my opinion, Sir!

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 9:20:30 PM

Termyn8or

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Maybe if us crude uncultured Yanks saw fewer stars-and-bars bumper stickers every time we take a vacation down South, we'd set aside our crude uncultured prejudices about Southern culture.

We might also take more vacations down South, too.

What is your problem with them flying the flag? Their forefathers lost entire generation of youn and old men for the right to fly that flag. There are 258,000 confederates in the ground that gave their lives under that flag and thats not counting the wounded. The right to fly that flag was earned in blood.
And dont give me that "Its a Racist thing" crap, we commited mass genocide on the indian population under the federal flag.

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Moloch;

I am surprised at you. Your previous statements did not indicate that you were so well read. I did NOT say that they indicated you weren't either.

There are many misconceptions about the civil war. First of all, even though slavery was to be abolished, this was the plan of the people behind the scenes, the people who brought the slaves here in the first place. They were not in it for the money, they did it specifically to change the social, moral and intellectual structure of this country and the inhabitants. A Race who buys slaves is immoral, but a Race who provides the slaves is more immoral, and the only logical conclusion is that that Race deems themselves to be above all others, and that they can enslave anyone they feel like.

Not even mentioning names, it has been going on for millenia. Again and again, they bring slaves, and later the slaves are integrated into the culture, or actually modify the culture. This is what is happening in the US right now. It has happened to alot of countries in the past though, and they survived.

We assimilated a significant contingent of a foreign Race who was not ready for our way of life. It happened alot in South and Central America, Persia, Spain etc., they forgot to put that in the history books though.

It is all a game, but our leaders are pursuing the path to losing. They have been for quite some time. There is alot they don't tell you.

Remember the Bolsheviks ? remember all the money they took ? Guess where it went. It funded the startup Federal Reserve in the US. No shit.

In the US the education is so good you don't know where you, your food, your family, your country or the world came from. It is just there. Do not look past the surface. It looks good, if not look away, go away or get rid of it. People here would take 12 pills a day for three months to cure a hangnail or foot fungus. It is amazing how modern technology allows them to survive, y'know McDonald's and Wendy's etc.

Remember movies in the old days where a Woman was about to give birth, "boil some water", well that's why people gotta rush to the hospital so fast to have a baby, they can't even boil water. But see they are saved by the microwave, most of which now come with detailed time settings "ON DA PAKAG IS SAYS LBS. PUT IN THAT NUMBER AND DONT FORGIT THE POINT. UNWRAP FOOD FIRST.

The company who used it said their tech support call volume went down 57%. Sent me a check. (totally joking at the moment)

Drive a car ? Look out there and you tell me.

OK, why be offensive ? Sometimes it is called for. I put down my own country's inhabitants, I do not feel good about that. But then if nobody ever says anything the situation will persist !

Where is the moral high ground ? Tolerance of ignorance, patience with goofs ? Ad infinitum or ad nauseum ? Or we could adopt the "only the strong survive" attitude. Of course some of us might not make it so that has to be tinkered with.

Where do we stand now morally ?

The kind of world a working Man deserves is taxed and profiteered away from him by those who would use others to support their own opulence.

These people care not for the welfare of those who they exploit, and that will be their downfall. The masses will again move against them, and this time it will be worldwide. The whole money system in the whole world will collapse making the rich into paupers overnight. This is not a Biblical prophecy, this is my own conclusion after my studies, and no, I am not clairvoyant. This is simple logic, proven by history time and time again. When they took their greed to a global scale, the equal and opposite reaction will expand accordingly.

Disagree,, please.

T

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 9:22:39 PM

Lordandmaster

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OK, this thread has gotten creepy. When people start to capitalize the word "race," I'm out.

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 9:35:30 PM

cloudboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Because it's an emblem that is inseparable from slavery, and I don't see any honor or glory in dying for a war that was waged for the right to keep slaves. The federal flag has many other connotations besides just massacring Indians. The confederate flag has no other connotations besides the failed attempt to secede from the Union and declare a Slave State.

Your response is a good example of why Southern attitudes bring on a major image problem. When I see people who take pride in the fact that their ancestors died for the right to keep slaves, I am, shall we say, not as impressed as they think I ought to be. If my great-great-grandfather had fought for the C.S.A. at Antietam or whatever, I wouldn't celebrate it. (In fact, my grandfather fought in WW I, my uncle in WW II, and my father in the Korean War, so I have SOME claim to descend from a family that has contributed a few things to our free nation.)

I can't help chuckling a little bit considering your screename: Lordandmaster

(seems this is a repeat.....)

I think your arguments on the subject are pretty much bullet proof, but DelightMachine below makes pretty good addendum remarks. Does the Gulag Archipelago translate the old Soviet hamer and sickle into a complete polticial-cultural negative?

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/13/2006 9:49:38 PM >

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 9:39:24 PM

cloudboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yes, I've read the history books. It was a war of rebellion--because the Union was going to prevent the South from keeping slaves. It was a war of secession--because the Union was going to prevent the South from keeping slaves. It was a war of Southern independence--because the Union was going to prevent the South from keeping slaves.

Want to continue with the other lame apologist theories that have been bandied about? It was a war pitting two irreconcilable economies against each other. Right. One of them was a slave economy. It was a war for Southern honor. Right. Southern honor was stained because the Union was going to prevent the South from keeping slaves. It was a war over electoral votes in the new territories. Right. The South seceded because the addition of free states would destroy its stranglehold on Congress--and then the Union would prevent the South from keeping slaves.

The Civil War was about slavery. No ifs ands or buts about it, and only Southern revisionists ever try to deny it. (That is, after all, why us crude uncultured Yankee types dislike seeing the Stars and Bars when we're on vacation in places like the Outer Banks.) Here's the acid test: if the Union had made ANY kind of compromise that would have allowed slavery to continue in the South, there would never have been a secession and therefore no Civil War. The Union knew this, too. War could easily have been avoided--at the cost of keeping the Slave State in place.

America has a new name for slavery now, and its called GLOBALIZATION and/or "made in China."

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 9:39:40 PM

DelightMachine

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quote:

Your response is a good example of why Southern attitudes bring on a major image problem. When I see people who take pride in the fact that their ancestors died for the right to keep slaves, I am, shall we say, not as impressed as they think I ought to be.

The Stars and Bars probably has a lot more to do with pride in the full span of Southern culture, taken as a whole, than in the Civil War, and obviously not in slave-keeping.

Pride in ancestors and culture and locality is a bit more complex than you, L&M, want to let on. If you wanted to express your pride in Southern heritage, what symbol would you put on the back of your bumper?

I think pride in the past, in culture, in locality, in ancestors is a good thing overall. And if it isn't, it's hardly ever a bad thing. Does anyone really think that people displaying that flag are doing it because they're racist or supported the Southern cause in the Civil War?

There are better ways to condemn racism than by condeming people with certain bumper stickers, especially when you're jumping to a lot of conclusions about what those bumper stickers mean.

Having said all this, let me add that I don't personally like the Stars and Bars at all. I love a lot of things about Southern culture (it's usually more polite and considerate), but it's one thing I don't like because for me it symbolizes just about the same thing that it symbolizes for L&M, and it reminds me of a vicious war fought against my country. No, I don't personally like it at all. But I don't think it's intended to symbolize that, and that makes all the difference in what we should assume about people who display that flag.

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 9:50:48 PM

Evanesce

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quote:

The Civil War was about slavery. No ifs ands or buts about it, and only Southern revisionists ever try to deny it.

I'm certainly no "Southern revisionist," having been born and raised in the North, but I must disagree with you here. The Civil War was about states' rights - not slavery. Yes, slavery was involved, but it was not the sole issue behind that war. Master being something of a Civil War buff, as well as a hobbyist historian and reenactor, I've had to read enough books about it to know it was more than just slavery that nearly tore this country apart.

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 9:51:21 PM

Lordandmaster

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That's a thoughtful point of view, DelightMachine, but I don't agree with it in the end. To answer your question: if I were Southern and felt I had to express my pride in the South (and for some reason Southerners tend to feel that need more than Yankees do), I'm not sure what emblem I'd use, but it would probably be something like a peanut. Peanuts revolutionized the world's agricultural systems.

I think most people who display the Stars and Bars don't ruminate very hard about why they do so, and to the extent that I've heard explanations of what the symbol means to them, I've learned that they see it essentially as an expression of their manliness and unwillingness to be cowed by authority. I cannot respect anyone who would use the flag of the Slave State to express his manliness or autonomy.

I also think many people who display the Stars and Bars really are racists. Not all (perhaps). But many. (After all, it's not just in the South that you see it. Go to Carlisle, Pennsylvania--the heart of Union territory--and you'll see it everywhere. What can the Stars and Bars possibly mean to someone from Carlisle, Pennsylvania?)

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 3/13/2006 10:13:22 PM >

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 10:06:08 PM

Lordandmaster

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Well, we're certainly not going to settle one of the most acrimonious controversies in American history on the CM discussion board, but to me the point is that all the other alleged causes of the Civil War collapse down to slavery. And this is how the conflict was viewed at the time, too. The Republican Party was founded specifically to repeal the Kansas-Nebraska Act, and the offensive portion of that act was that it permitted new states above the latitude of the Missouri Compromise to adopt slavery. Lincoln was a Republican (a Republican who bent over backwards to keep the South in the fold in his First Inaugural Address). Everyone who voted for and against Lincoln knew what that vote meant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evanesce

I'm certainly no "Southern revisionist," having been born and raised in the North, but I must disagree with you here. The Civil War was about states' rights - not slavery. Yes, slavery was involved, but it was not the sole issue behind that war. Master being something of a Civil War buff, as well as a hobbyist historian and reenactor, I've had to read enough books about it to know it was more than just slavery that nearly tore this country apart.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 3/13/2006 10:08:14 PM >

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 10:07:04 PM

cloudboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evanesce

quote:

The Civil War was about slavery. No ifs ands or buts about it, and only Southern revisionists ever try to deny it.

The Civil War was about states' rights - not slavery. Yes, slavery was involved, but it was not the sole issue behind that war.

That's a great smokescreen argument, but its hardly a distinction of difference.

I wonder what James Meredith would have to say about it, b/c you know he encountered that States rights bullshit too.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmeredith.htm

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 10:08:44 PM

Moloch

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The Civil war About the States Rights VS Federal Rights. Southern states wanted to leave the union, part of it was an ugly tax and distribution of tax money system set it place, as far as slavery concerned it was just ONE of the issues.
Im not from the south Ive never been to the south, but lumping south and north into bad VS good black VS white is not really appropriate. Yes there are ALOT of racist idiots out there that are flying Confederate flag (we have ALOT of them here in WNY) but for alot of people it stands for heritage they are proud of their ancestors fighting for their State and Their way of life, this may not sound normal to you due to slavery issue but you have to take into account that this was 1860's.

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 10:15:15 PM

Termyn8or

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Hmmmm;

LordandMaster is out. Out he says. Perhaps I shouldn't have been so truthful.

He reacted like a soccer mom.

Mr Lord or whatever, I am not a Christian, but I refuse to call you any kind of lord because you are not. Let me tell you this, I quit working full time years ago and work part time so I can do my research. I make enough per hour to make up for it though. Pulled a 160 on one of those IQ tests, and have never hit below 125. And that's with poor literary skill, which some can see, if their skill level is beyond mine.

If you want to hit a few points about the civil war:

The original 13th ammendement, the Titles Of Nobility act, would have prevented members of the Bar from holding office (lawyers). It passed (Dodge and Dunn).

Tarriff Of The Abominations, a plea from a southern state to the federal government. Many related documents, be sure to back out of things you are done with, there is alot. The federal government wanted to punish some of the states, either that or they wanted to specifically antagonize them into a war. Like they did with Japan.

The U.S. bank, from which Roger B. Taney removed all of the country's gold to an offshore bank, at the behest of the President. Three former secretaries had refused to do so. He was rewarded with a lifetime job on the Supreme court. He was the one who rendered the Dred Scott decision, the one that said that a slave who escaped to a free state could be hauled back to the slave state to be reenslaved.

Real patriot huh ?

Abraham Lincoln was killed by the same people who brought the slaves, BECAUSE he was adamant about repatriating them to Africa. This was unacceptable.

Shortly before JFK's death, he wrote a letter to David Ben-Gurion, Prime Minister of Israel with a threat to cut off all US aid if they did not abandon their nuclear projects.

Bill Clinton also fucked with Israel shortly before they found Monica, a broad who had been there for over a year. Just found her eh ? Pretty lax security.

That's how they keep control, money isn't quite enough. You need skeletons, skeletons in the closet.

This makes the people behind the scenes, and alot of big media people, and a few others the real rulers of the US. The public follows whatever they say like lapdogs, like lemmings they would follow each other into the ocean, not being able to swim.

Yes, my friends, there is very good reason to be offensive.

T

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 10:30:41 PM

angelic

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alrighty then...

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/13/2006 10:37:09 PM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

Even back in 1980. I for one will not appologize for anothers ignorance on that.... but will say I hope other than that.. you found the state of NC more pleasurable.

Well... I'm gonna stay out of the political aspect of this thread. But I do want to tell you that outside of Oregon and Northern California, I find both East Tennessee and North Carolina to be my favorite parts of the country.

It wasn't but a few years {Pre 9-11} ago that I used to make the trek out there every year and be a participant in the ''Green River Narrows'' extreme race. I'm sure there are bigots, just like anywhere else, but *my mind was only on the good food and great whitewater. LMAO!

- The Ranger

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RE: Why be offensive? - 3/14/2006 5:05:02 AM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic
To seek a slave in the here and now but then turn around and blame a part of our history on that which You currently seek... is imho hypocrasy.

just my opinion, Sir!

What part of "consensual" don't you get? Are you saying that if I kidnapped a woman, you'd support my right to do so?

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