RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (Full Version)

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AnimusRex -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 4:45:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
It had nothing to do with government regulation.  Most drywall is still manufactured here.



true that. We still produce a lot of it here. In regards to how it is regulated:

When an architect (thats me) designs a building, he is required to follow local building codes; most model building codes demand compliance with ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials) which has various regulations that stipulate how the drywall is made, and standards it must meet.

ASTM, and other bodies like Underwriter's Laboratories, will certify a product, but the process is self-regulating; the government doesn't do any inspection and simply trusts ASTM.
ASTM in turn relies on the honesty and truthfullness of the applying manufacturer. ASTM doesn't have, for instance, a team of inspectors who make surprise inspections of a gypsum plant to make sure they are doing it right. They don't have any actual police or subpoena power. Its pretty much on the honor system.
In addition, even if the architect's specifications call for ASTM certified drywall, the builder can substitue Chinese drywall instead; very few city building inspectors would catch that.

With respect to how it is litigated: Different states have different laws regarding product liability; most developers and architects carry insurance to protect them; but often the insurance turns out to be inadequate, or the firms simply vanish, leaving the end user holding the bag.

Some states have more rigorous regulation and enforcement; others prefer to trust the invisible hand to, um, show its face.




LadyEllen -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 4:48:54 PM)

Wonderful stuff AR! The thread owes you a debt of gratitude for casting light where there was only heat.

E




flcouple2009 -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 4:54:27 PM)

quote:

OK- seriously. I watched the development of this, since as I do construction material specifying. In the boom years of the late 90's through 2006, the massive amounts of construction in China acted like a global vacuum cleaner, sucking up nearly every building product made; Concrete, plywood, steel, copper you name it; all these materials became scarce, prices skyrocketed, and in that vacuum cheaper made, highly questionable products flooded the market.
quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

I can remember vast shortages of simple things like rebar. 

Metal prices sky rocketed with all of the building in China.  Every piece of metal that was being made was loaded on a ship and sent over as they were paying top dollar.  I can remember getting quotes on some of the large Steel buildings we were doing and being told the quote was only good till the end of the day because of the fluctuation in price of the metal.

Where is all of this supposed Chinese drywall going?  No one in their right mine is using it. 




LadyEllen -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 5:05:12 PM)

So if I understand you correctly AR, this whole episode falls on the manufacturers or importers in one way or another, for either falsely declaring ASTM compliance (fraudulent misrepresentation) or declaring it by way of negligent misrepresentation? The professional standing of either would avoid innocent misrepresentation as they had a clear duty to ensure compliance.

Whilst Chinese manufacturers may be difficult to sue, albeit those which are branches of western companies ought to be possible to sue in the west, possibly within the US, the importers meanwhile stand immediately liable and one would presume ought to have professional risks, public liability and products risks insurance which, regardless of whether they are now bankrupt or liquidated, was in place and paid up at the time of import and therefore should hold good for claims against it.

E




AnimusRex -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 5:21:48 PM)

LadyEllen:
yes, and its important to keep in mind that not a whole lot of Chinese drywall mades its way here; the problems were pretty isolated to Florida, and only a few buildings there.

But the problem of how to police an industry outside of the US is a difficult one; for instance, most light fixtures in the US use Underwriter's laboratories as their quallity assurance for safety; but there is a flood of cheaper Chinese knockoffs, that don't have a UL label, or in some cases have VERY questionable labels; there isn't really a good system in China for doing this quality assurance; the Chinese government is notroriously lax in pursuing counterfeit labels; jeans, handbags, movies, etc. All are counterfeited in China, and the gov't has turned a blind eye so far.

So if you install a lamp from Europe or the US, you can be assured it is safe to operate; if it is from China, you really have no way of knowing if you will get electrocuted when you turn it on, or not.

There are some who would think this is a problem.




MzMia -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 6:47:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

You see, the invisible hand of the marketplace will solve this, as it solves all of lifes' problems. Let me break it down for you:
Once the houses that have the contaminated drywall fall in price, they will be foreclosed upon;
The banks will process these toxic assets by demolishing them, writing down the losses, prompting a contraction of lending, widespread layoffs, and a few quarters of negative growth;
Thousands of families will be bankrupted, jobs will be lost; the adverse societal effects of broken families, divorces, and school dropouts will ripple through the nation;
All imports from China will be suspect; there will arise a cottage industry of private market inspectors and quality assurance firms, but since not all builders will use them, the level of risk within the building industry will add a few basis points to every construction loan, and be reflected in higher prices for houses, apartments, and offices.

Eventually society will accept that all products are at risk of toxic materials and this risk will be borne by the consumer;
The occasional explosion, where a batch of toxic materials turns up in our food, clothing, or consumer products; the occasional bout of poisonings from melamine in milk or lead in paint will be seen as just one of those things that cannot be avoided.
Consumers will react to this higher level of risk by being defensive- purchasing less, maintaining a higher level of savings to cover unexpected adverse results, depressing consumption, leading to lower economic growth permanently.

You see? Problem solved.


Thank you all for some very interesting responses.
Now this response, might have a tad of truth in it, but I really hope not.
[8|]




MzMia -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 7:00:18 PM)

According to this article,  Owners with Chinese drywall welcome validation, seek relief
 
it looks like many of the homeowners affected have a class action suit against a major distributor of the drywall, "Knauf Plasterboard Co."
 
I am not sure how much relief or money the homeowners will receive, but the long term affects on their bodies, and their families may never really be known.





MzMia -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 7:08:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Boy! All this "FREE TRADE" just keeps getting better and better and better doesn't it?[:D]
Why do we "Need" to trade with China anyway? Can't Mattel produce toys with lead paint on them in the U.S.?


Between all the rules and regulations, and stipulations on top of stipulations, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't it appears.
Let's just sit back and see how high unemployment goes.
I really think it will go to at least 25%, maybe higher.

Hell, many areas of the United States have rates around 30%-40% now.
No end in sight, sailor man.
Manufacture This
I certainly feel we need to manufacture a lot more products than we do, and we should be exporting a lot more than we are, also.
 
I don't mind "Free Trade" agreements, but I just think we have gone way too far here in America.
The sad thing is, we are importing a lot of products that just don't seem to be very well regulated, YET that
seems to be just fine.
[8|]




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 7:47:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Hell, many areas of the United States have rates around 30%-40% now.
[


What is "many areas" and how many people does that represent?




rulemylife -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 8:04:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


"No drywall being manufactured here." Is that the meaning you took from; "Us companies can't afford to produce it here."? Okay - I can see that incorrect and agenda based interpretation; however that is neither what I said nor inferred. For me there is a clear distinction.


Then you are going to have to elaborate on that interesting distinction.

Because saying US companies can't afford to make it here seems to clearly imply there are no US companies making it here.

quote:


Nevertheless, you don't get to tell me what my point is. The results bear it out. It was, and must still be, easier to import from China than increase production (albeit temporarily), or better yet build a new plant, since there is still a large amount of drywall among the many billions of dollars of other goods, being imported from 1/2 way (FL may be 2/3) around the world in China.

If not for government hurdles and environmental regulations why is that the case?


If you want to make that argument then show me the percentages.

But that was not the argument you started with.






MzMia -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 8:07:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Hell, many areas of the United States have rates around 30%-40% now.
[


What is "many areas" and how many people does that represent?


Now, I guess you want to tell me that the number of unemployed is not high?
Most people can agree that the numbers the government reports are not as high as the "real" numbers.

When you count the people that have just given up and stopped looking, and those that have settled for part-time work, you can double the numbers below.
[:)]

Regional and State Employment and Unemployment Summary




Brain -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 8:13:59 PM)


You think you're joking and being funny but the truth is your right. The fact is his right wing free enterprise deregulation Adam Smith invisible hand ideology did cause this problem.

I'm not in the mood these days because of teabaggers, Repugs, and sellout Democrats to object to your solution.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet


It's 2009.

It's Bush's fault.

The twins should have to prostitute themselves to reimburse the downtrodden.

chia* (the pet)






Brain -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 8:24:41 PM)

SO IT IS BUSHS' FAULT

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
It had nothing to do with government regulation.  Most drywall is still manufactured here.


but the process is self-regulating; the government doesn't do any inspection and simply trusts ASTM.

ASTM in turn relies on the honesty and truthfullness of the applying manufacturer. ASTM doesn't have, for instance, a team of inspectors who make surprise inspections of a gypsum plant to make sure they are doing it right. They don't have any actual police or subpoena power. Its pretty much on the honor system.

In addition, even if the architect's specifications call for ASTM certified drywall, the builder can substitue Chinese drywall instead; very few city building inspectors would catch that.

With respect to how it is litigated: Different states have different laws regarding product liability; most developers and architects carry insurance to protect them; but often the insurance turns out to be inadequate, or the firms simply vanish, leaving the end user holding the bag.

Some states have more rigorous regulation and enforcement; others prefer to trust the invisible hand to, um, show its face.





rulemylife -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 8:38:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex


yes, and its important to keep in mind that not a whole lot of Chinese drywall mades its way here;
the problems were pretty isolated to Florida, and only a few buildings there.



I would have to disagree with you on all points here.

The problem in Florida is not only a few buildings.  Even the Lt. Governor of Florida has brought suit about the issue for problems in his own home.

And the problem has been reported in 32 states so far, with the states receiving hurricane damage during that period, Florida, Mississippi, and Louisiana, reporting the most problems.


Chinese Drywall Lawsuit Claims 30000 Florida Homes Could Be ...

Yet another class action lawsuit has been filed on behalf of Florida homeowners plagued by defective Chinese drywall. The lawsuit, which alleges that as many as 30,000 Florida homes may have been built with tainted Chinese drywall, is at least the fourth such claim filed in the state.


Filing Deadline Looms for Homeowners' Litigation Over Chinese Drywall

About 35,000 Florida homes may contain allegedly defective Chinese drywall, and the state is believed to have about 30 percent of the installations nationally.











AnimusRex -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 8:57:59 PM)

Rule-
I stand corrected; I haven't been following this issue closely since I first heard of it.

According to yesterday's New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/business/energy-environment/24drywall.html

"More than 2,100 homeowners, mainly in Florida, Louisiana and Virginia, have complained to the government of problems with their homes. Those three states experienced a home construction boom after devastating hurricanes. With domestic sources of drywall running low a few years ago, many home builders turned to imported drywall from China, which investigators now say is linked to many of the homeowners’ problems. "

"An estimated 60,000 homes may have been built with Chinese drywall, but the commission said that not all Chinese-made drywall was tainted.
"

So it looks like the problem is more widespread than I thought previous.


For what it is worth- I wouldn't put much faith in one of your sources- the "chinese drywall answers dot com" website is a website for a law firm advertising for clients to join their class action suit; they have no requirement to be objective, and every incentive to exaggerate the facts; so I take what they say with a lot of skepticism, to say the least.




rulemylife -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 9:18:50 PM)

Maybe so, about the exaggeration on the site.

But I live in Florida most of the year, in one of the areas that was hardest hit by Wilma, which was also coincidentally one of the housing boom areas, and I think rather than an exaggeration we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

It has become a huge issue here statewide.





chiaThePet -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 10:13:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain


You think you're joking and being funny but the truth is your right. The fact is his right wing free enterprise deregulation Adam Smith invisible hand ideology did cause this problem.

I'm not in the mood these days because of teabaggers, Repugs, and sellout Democrats to object to your solution.





I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin.............

"That depends on what your definition of "is" is."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/10/10/clinton.pntr/

chia* (the pet)





InvisibleBlack -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 11:10:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
The fact is his right wing free enterprise deregulation Adam Smith invisible hand ideology did cause this problem.



I don't know if you can really blame Adam Smith for faulty imported Chinese drywall. Even the most basic "Wealth of Nations" capitalism has a role for government in the prevention of fraud.

Also, having just built out two office spaces - I don't know that many people who claim that the construction industry is "under regulated". The amount of rules and regulations you need to follow involving wiring, electricity, plumbing, building materials and construction methods is enormous. Multiple inspections ensue before you can get even a temporary certificate of occupancy.

I don't know the details of the case but is the issue that the inspectors knowingly passed an unsafe dwelling? Or that the construction firm knowingly used unsafe building materials? Or that unsafe goods were allowed into the U. S. and rated as safe?

This doesn't strike me as being a "the market has failed in the construction industry" problem as much as it does a "we're not inspecting our imported goods well enough" problem, especially given that there have been problems with imports from that nation previously.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 11:15:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

LadyEllen:
yes, and its important to keep in mind that not a whole lot of Chinese drywall mades its way here; the problems were pretty isolated to Florida, and only a few buildings there.




A few buildings? I read that enough was imported for 10,000 houses, and some made its way to Alabama and Louisiana as well.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/24/2009 11:18:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Hell, many areas of the United States have rates around 30%-40% now.
[


What is "many areas" and how many people does that represent?


Now, I guess you want to tell me that the number of unemployed is not high?
Most people can agree that the numbers the government reports are not as high as the "real" numbers.

When you count the people that have just given up and stopped looking, and those that have settled for part-time work, you can double the numbers below.
[:)]

Regional and State Employment and Unemployment Summary



You guess wrong, and yes, I know about the non-counting of those not looking. But "30-40% in many areas" is total bullshit, unless you cherry pick a few blocks here and a few farms there.




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