RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (Full Version)

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Termyn8or -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 7:38:27 AM)

FR

OK I have read the thread. This brings up one question, why was it cost effective for Chinese manufacturers to build plants to produce drywall but not for US firms ?

I suspect the reason is that they have alot of manufacturing to do, so with the boom gone and the market flat, the plant can be sold and adapted for another purpose. However that is not so here unless we make a McD's out of it.

I also wonder how cheap labor can offset the cost of overseas shipping. Surely it isn't free or subsidized by the government. Or is it ? Is that the nail in the coffin which eludes us ? Or are we in the US the only ones bearing the brunt of new, higher enegry costs ?

OK fine, they make the product cheaper using lower paid labor and enjoy the lack of regulation, but how do they get it here ?

T



Moonhead -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 10:53:12 AM)

China doesn't give a shit about the Kyoto treaty, it's true. On the other hand, I've yet to see any indication that America does either, so I'm not sure that's a very significant factor. Didn't Bush make a big deal of stating that he was going to ignore it at one point?
I'd imagine shipping in bulk is one thing the Chinese economy manages to exploit effectively, particularly if their manufacturing costs are low enough (which they are in a lot of fields, though I have no idea about drywall) to compensate for the end price being marked up for shipping. That's one thing that centralised government control of industries can do very effectively.



flcouple2009 -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 2:18:27 PM)

We are also ignoring the fact that there have been a run of similar problems associated with some American made dry wall.  Both National Gypsum and Georgia Pacific have lawsuits against them.



Moonhead -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 2:50:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

We are also ignoring the fact that there have been a run of similar problems associated with some American made dry wall.  Both National Gypsum and Georgia Pacific have lawsuits against them.

That's interesting. I've not been following the story, so I didn't know that. Thank you. It hasn't been mentioned on here.



flcouple2009 -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 3:00:23 PM)

Of course not.  It doesn't fit in with the bashing of Chinese products by some nor does it give a platform for lamenting how government regulation is ruining American business as some others wished to have. 

The gist of the reports are that the cellulose to gypsum ration of the drywall was off.  The sheets had to much cellulose which is causing the same type of reaction.  I can recall times we had whole stacks of drywall (Gold Bond made by National Gypsum) which were way too soft and would just crumble when you tried to cut them.   Which is an interesting note because the drywall companies are saying that the ratios could not be as bad as the test have come back because the drywall would crumble and be unusable. 



Moonhead -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 3:07:39 PM)

Another triumph for unregulated free enterprise then. That is interesting, I'll have to have a look at google about that.



AnimusRex -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 3:13:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack
Even the most basic "Wealth of Nations" capitalism has a role for government in the prevention of fraud.

You would think so, wouldn't you?

Your point is spot on- that even in a market economy, regulation and controls are a part of what make the system work; Markets alone don't automatically produce justice and fairness. Markets only produce an amoral efficiency, not a just society or moral order. For that, we need governance.



AnimusRex -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 3:25:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

The gist of the reports are that the cellulose to gypsum ration of the drywall was off.  The sheets had to much cellulose which is causing the same type of reaction. 


First I have heard of it; is this regarding mold problems with cellulose face gyp? Or something different?

I am familiar with the mold issue, but haven't heard of issues with gyp crumbling.
Better, can you point out some links? My googling is not showing much that is helpful.

Thanks



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 4:06:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

We are also ignoring the fact that there have been a run of similar problems associated with some American made dry wall.  Both National Gypsum and Georgia Pacific have lawsuits against them.


First, the instances are rare, less than .1% of all claims, and they are likely to be homeowners looking to latch on to a lawsuit bandwagon. It is highly unlikely that any American made gypsum wallboard has the same problems. AFAIK there have been no reproducible instances of significant sulfur emissions from American drywall. There was one significant test that had to be in error, claiming that some National Gypsum wallboard was 50% cellulose, and that a chemical reaction with the gypsum caused sulfur fumes. Wallboard of 50% cellulose would crumble before it could even be shipped. It is suspected that any legitimate claims involving American made drywall are actually from homes where both Chinese and American products were used , and it is the Chinese drywall causing the problems. The question is did the builder know he used both? Did the supplier provide both without the builders knowledge?



flcouple2009 -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 4:49:56 PM)

National gypsum claimed the test was in error, but you expect them to say anything different?  The numbers are coming up more than 1%.  Of the 44 homes the government had listed in the documents 10 actualy had American made drywall.   

The claim is the cellulose content in some of the drywall is too high which is also causing the drywall to react and give off some of the same fumes.  National Gypsum claimed that wasn't possible because the drywall its self would be to crumbly to even use.  I was referencing times when we had large stacks of dry wall that was almost chalky.  It would try and crumble when you cut it, which fits exactly the description that National Gypsum gave.





LadyEllen -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 4:54:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

We are also ignoring the fact that there have been a run of similar problems associated with some American made dry wall.  Both National Gypsum and Georgia Pacific have lawsuits against them.


First, the instances are rare, less than .1% of all claims, and they are likely to be homeowners looking to latch on to a lawsuit bandwagon. It is highly unlikely that any American made gypsum wallboard has the same problems.


Is your patriotism truly so insanely vehement as this suggests?

E



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 5:21:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

We are also ignoring the fact that there have been a run of similar problems associated with some American made dry wall.  Both National Gypsum and Georgia Pacific have lawsuits against them.


First, the instances are rare, less than .1% of all claims, and they are likely to be homeowners looking to latch on to a lawsuit bandwagon. It is highly unlikely that any American made gypsum wallboard has the same problems.


Is your patriotism truly so insanely vehement as this suggests?

E


It has nothing to do with patriotism (nor what I think you meant to ask, nothing to do with chauvinism). I have clients invested in REITs that have Chinese drywall problems and we get monthly updates on litigation. Just setting the facts straight.



flcouple2009 -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 5:34:19 PM)

You didn't set anything straight.  You ignored much of the information that has been coming out ion the last week.  It now appears that some of the homes used to establish the problem actually had American made drywall.  It also appears many people thought they had other problems because they knew they didn't have Chinese drywall, but their problems now seem linked back to the drywall even though it was American made.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 6:15:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

You didn't set anything straight.  You ignored much of the information that has been coming out ion the last week.  It now appears that some of the homes used to establish the problem actually had American made drywall.  It also appears many people thought they had other problems because they knew they didn't have Chinese drywall, but their problems now seem linked back to the drywall even though it was American made.


If there is new information this week, youre right, I don't have it yet. The investment meetings arent for another 2 weeks. My information is totally accurate as of 2 weeks ago wrt large residential and commercial developments in Florida.



flcouple2009 -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 6:43:45 PM)

The thing that caught my attention was part of what National Gypsum said.  They claimed the drywall could not have had that high a cellulose content because it would not hold together or would crumble.  We had stacks of dry wall that fit those descriptions.  it was chalky, crumbly.  When you cut it the edges would crumble.  You had to be careful when you screwed it because it would bust.



MzMia -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 9:21:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

The thing that caught my attention was part of what National Gypsum said.  They claimed the drywall could not have had that high a cellulose content because it would not hold together or would crumble.  We had stacks of dry wall that fit those descriptions.  it was chalky, crumbly.  When you cut it the edges would crumble.  You had to be careful when you screwed it because it would bust.


Thank you for informing us of some of the problems with drywall made in America.
Until you mentioned it, I was not aware that problems had been found with some of the drywall made in America, also.

U.S.: Chinese Drywall, Corrosion Linked - CBS News

IMHO, at least with the drywall made in America, it will be a lot easier to locate where and how it was made.
It will also be a lot easier to see who and what is to blame and who will pay to correct and replace it.
Also, I have always felt it is a hell of a lot easier to regulate food and goods that are manufactured in this country, if regulating products is something that people care about.
    
I still feel we need to manufacture more products here in America, and I have always felt that we need more inspection, quality control and consumer advocates.
We need more people like Ralph Nader.



AnimusRex -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/25/2009 10:57:47 PM)

I am still curious to find out a link source for domestic drywall with non-mold cellulose problems. I haven't found anything, even in my trade publications.

thanks in advance.



Termyn8or -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/26/2009 7:57:25 AM)

FR

Maybe we should go back to plaster and lath.

But then they would find something wrong with that as well, some sort of emissions. Let's get one fact straight, we live in a world full of poisons. The point here is that it is destroying houses.

Of course I wouldn't care if I were a direct descendent of the Rothchilds who just won the biggest lottery in the owrld, I would not buy a new house. If I did it would be custom built with proven 100 year old technology, with a bit of good insulation added. Because I'll bitch about the drywall doesn't mean I think it should be what is supporting the structure, and in some newer houses it is.

I don't like garbage no matter how new it is. Paper thin roofs, improperly formed footers and baements, walls that are nothing but vinyl siding covering styrofoam with drywall on the inside, I'll have no part of it. Damn, you can't even hang up a picture on the wall !

The point ? This happened, OK, but I am sure something was going to happen to all this junk they build these days anyway, this just happened first. Remember the benefits of aluminum wiring ? For some reason they are no longer valid. Again the emptor must caveat, because he is the actual guinea pig.

My house was built in the early 1900s and I like it that way. My stereo sounds better in a room constructed with plaster and lath. The house is not airtight so I don't have to worry about that gas they found in people's basement a few years ago, an issue that has slipped back into the woodwork BTW.

People like me are an anaethma because we don't forget quickly enough. Sorry.

T



rulemylife -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/26/2009 10:30:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

I am still curious to find out a link source for domestic drywall with non-mold cellulose problems. I haven't found anything, even in my trade publications.

thanks in advance.


Not sure if this is what you are asking about:


Florida Lawsuit Claims GP, 84 Sold Dangerous Drywall

Similar complaints have been made in Florida and other southeastern states regarding drywall manufactured in China, but according to GP product sheets, its ToughRock drywall is fabricated in the United States and Canada.

Nevertheless, the suit alleges, "this consumer class action claims that the issues surrounding the dangerous chemicals used to create the synthetic gypsum used in modern day drywall have infiltrated American-based manufacturers as well."

The culprit, according to the lawsuit, is the large amount of sulfur contained in synthetic gypsum. Synthetic gypsum is a byproduct created after coal is pulverized and fed into power generation plants.

"When synthetic gypsum is used to manufacture drywall, the end product contains excessive amounts of sulfur-based pollutants," the suit maintains.

"When the exterior of Florida homes containing synthetic gypsum drywall become heated due to normal Florida temperatures, the air temperature inside the wall cavity between the outer shell of the home and the inner drywall becomes significantly elevated. These elevated temperatures combined with Florida's humidity cause sulfur dioxide gas to be released ... [causing] significant oxidation of various metals that lie in close proxmity to the drywall."







AnimusRex -> RE: Toxic/Corrosive Chinese Drywall---who is to blame/who pays? (11/26/2009 8:12:42 PM)

Rule-
Thanks for the link- I will check into it.



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