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Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 9:09:46 AM

PainfullyCurious

Posts: 157
Joined: 10/26/2009
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I'm noticing that by the time an experienced Dom posts on here about an "unruly sub," assuming he knows what he's doing, he's only at his wits end because the problem he is describing is emotional in nature, not behavioral. You guys have already mastered behavior.

Emotion does not respond to your attempts at behavior modification. It never will. You can not spank out feelings of anxiety, neglect or lingering abandonment issues. Emotion is a much more fickle creature and he lives in all of us.

My question, to each of you, as a Dom is: Do you know how to spot an emotional issue vs. a behavioral one? Do you think it's important for you to know the difference?

--------------------------------------------------

A note on why I ask:

I ask because, of course, it's important to me. No, not because I have a ton of emotional issues. That's not the case at all. I'm very lucky. No one's even touched me where they shouldn't have. My dad didn't run out on my family. My dog lived to a ripe old age. I do know my own worth and I could never willingly give myself over to someone who gives me a slap when I'm dying for a hug. (I don't think I need an abundance of either, but appling the wrong one to the given circumstance is always damaging.) If you plan to stick around long-term, life is sure to throw a few curve balls our way and emotional issues are sure to come up (and you shouldn't be depending on me to know what it is I need at a time like that).

Excuse the slight, but if it gets your attention, it's served it's purpose. From what I've been reading, I have grave concerns as to whether or not most Doms can put their bravado aside long enough to see an issue clearly. Sure, your sub wants to do what she can to make her world revolve around you, but everything does not revolve around you. To be so self-centered as to think that a sub who is such a mess that she's lost control of herself and called you 30 times in a row is doing it just to test you, to think that the primary issue is that she's stepping on your toes, well it's a little out of touch with reality. If you want her to give herself over to you, and to make your happiness her # 1 priority, then don't you have to take responsibility for keeping her safe?

As some of you already know, I am in the midst of deciding if this is the lifestyle that I want for myself. I know everyone is different, and I'd like to know how likely I am to find someone that I feel comfortable with.

Post #: 1

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 9:33:58 AM

AnimusRex

Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline

Can I spot an emotional issue vs a behavioral issue?

No, I can't.

But that's probably because I really don't care. As the saying goes, I want to have a child, not marry one. If a woman is having "behavioral" or "emotional" issues that make it difficult to maintain a relationship, why in the world would I want to spend five minutes with her? What could she possibly offer that makes it worth the annoyance of an adult tantrum?

It is a prerequisite that in order to form any sort of relationship with Kim and I, a person should have their life together. We all have "issues", we all have our emotional scars and baggage and difficulties. But most (grownup) people suck it up, get themselves together and place the well-being of the family ahead of their own emotional needs.

Seriously, I am not a shrink, nor do I play one in the dungeon.

(in reply to PainfullyCurious)

Post #: 2

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 10:13:16 AM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

But that's probably because I really don't care. As the saying goes, I want to have a child, not marry one. If a woman is having "behavioral" or "emotional" issues that make it difficult to maintain a relationship, why in the world would I want to spend five minutes with her? What could she possibly offer that makes it worth the annoyance of an adult tantrum?
Seriously, I am not a shrink, nor do I play one in the dungeon

AMEN!!
While I have a background in animal behavior and frequently observe patterns in people, it's not my job to fix a sub. If they have emotional problems there are professionals and medications for that. If I happen to have a potential sub that discloses these types of things up front I would heavily weigh my decision on their long term dedication to their own well being.
We all have baggage of some type, most of us are looking for others able to conveniently store it in the overhead bin. If someone can't tell me what's on their mind and feels the need to create drama and play "guess my issue" they will quickly find themselves very very alone.

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to AnimusRex)

Post #: 3

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 10:34:03 AM

PainfullyCurious

Posts: 157
Joined: 10/26/2009
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There is nothing wrong with seeking a partner who does not have a slew of baggage. That's fair. As a matter of fact, I do it myself. I used an example that was posted elsewhere on here, and that is an example of an extreme situation, so let's step away from that.

Let's move on. Someone close to your sub passes away. It happens.
She's going to have emotional issues for a while. That's what I mean when I talk about life throwing you a curve.

If you expect baggage to be neatly stowed and you expect complete honesty from her, how do you reconcile the two after a traumatic event?

Is your answer still: "I'm not a shrink."

Again, it's good to know yourself and it's fair if that's your answer, or even the answer of an overwhelming majority. This lifestyle might be easy to handle when things are good, but i'd like to think out what I'm in for when things are rough as well. If I'm not ready for it, one bad event would cause a huge chunk of my life to fall apart, instead of just being one bad event.

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 4

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 10:56:01 AM

antipode

Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
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quote:

Do you know how to spot an emotional issue vs. a behavioral one?

Define "emotional" v. "behavioural", please. And try to stay away from the word "issue", which is an obfuscation that doesn't mean anything.

(in reply to PainfullyCurious)

Post #: 5

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 11:18:13 AM

sunshinemiss

Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
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Hello,
I have often said that in the D/s dynamic, I have two things I must do. 1. obey. 2. make sure I'm not being harmed physically or emotionally

Those are my responsibilities. Now, within them, I may need to work a little magic and you know express myself so that the M-type knows what's going on. How was he to know that chocolate Easter bunnies are a trigger for me? In the midst of being with him, I need to tell him if it is really getting in the way, or suck it up if it's really not. I think one of the things that s-types struggle with is the idea that something will harm them and the reality that something will harm them. This is where trust comes in. My second thing - making sure I'm not being harmed physically or emotionally generally can be allowed to fall by the wayside when trust is there (eta: that is, I can focus less on that responsibility as the relationship progresses and recognize that I am not going to be harmed). Only when some long buried issue comes up do I need to pop in and pull on his shirt sleeve and say "hey this is painful in a bad way." And then he decides whether to walk me through it and make me face the issue (and help me in that process) or whether to stop and put it aside for the moment (or for a time or forever).

Because behaviors are often responses to emotions, it can be a difficult process to manage if we let it. On the other hand, I don't really want a therapist on the other side of a paddle. I want a man who trusts my ability to communicate and who expends energy on other things.

best,
sunshine

< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 11/29/2009 11:23:21 AM >

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to antipode)

Post #: 6

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 11:22:14 AM

AnimusRex

Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PainfullyCurious
Let's move on. Someone close to your sub passes away. It happens.
She's going to have emotional issues for a while. That's what I mean when I talk about life throwing you a curve.

If you expect baggage to be neatly stowed and you expect complete honesty from her, how do you reconcile the two after a traumatic event?

In the 9 years Kim and I have known each other, life has thrown quite a few curveballs at us; someone very close to her did in fact pass away, and we have each had turmoil with family, work, etc.

But we cope and press on. It is possible to grieve a loss, and to cope with deep disappointment and even catastrophe, without turning it into relationship disfunction. In fact, when we had sadness and grief strike us, our relationship made it more tolerable, it blunted the sadness and soothed the grief. We each functioned better in the presence of the other. Her kind and supportive presence made my stress lighter, and I would like to think my concern and presence made her grief more tolerable.

When I said I am not a shrink, it wasn't sarcasm; I really am not. If the level of anxiety and stress was more than a loving conversation and reassuring presence could handle, if one of us needed counseling or therapy, we would go get it.

As I see it, we have an obligation to be the best person we can be to our loved ones. We have an obligation to take care of ourselves, physically and emotionally so as to be a fit and loving helpmate to the other.

(in reply to PainfullyCurious)

Post #: 7

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 12:03:27 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Being fourth generation mood disorder, I have emotional issues. But it isn't up to him to identify them, it is up to me. His responsibility is to say " what's going on, you aren't yourself". My responsibility is to say that I need a hug. At which point I get one.

It's really simply like that. He pays attention to my behavior, and I identify the cause. We then both brainstorm a solution.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to AnimusRex)

Post #: 8

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 12:05:02 PM

alittleevil

Posts: 235
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PainfullyCurious
There is nothing wrong with seeking a partner who does not have a slew of baggage. That's fair. As a matter of fact, I do it myself. I used an example that was posted elsewhere on here, and that is an example of an extreme situation, so let's step away from that.

Let's move on. Someone close to your sub passes away. It happens.
She's going to have emotional issues for a while. That's what I mean when I talk about life throwing you a curve.

If you expect baggage to be neatly stowed and you expect complete honesty from her, how do you reconcile the two after a traumatic event?

Is your answer still: "I'm not a shrink."

Again, it's good to know yourself and it's fair if that's your answer, or even the answer of an overwhelming majority. This lifestyle might be easy to handle when things are good, but i'd like to think out what I'm in for when things are rough as well. If I'm not ready for it, one bad event would cause a huge chunk of my life to fall apart, instead of just being one bad event.

Hello,

A fundamentally compassionate, sensible person does not stop being so because he or she is "A Dom" or " a sub" (and the ones that feel that they must...well, tend to not be so successful in their interpersonal relationships). Likewise, a dominant/submissive can be a real shit and still be dominant/submissive. Dominants can be confused, inexperienced, inconsiderate, deceitful, hurtful--all too human, in other words. And then there are the ones that use their powers for good. Find one of those: an intelligent, humane man who also has a bone-deep predilection for control in his personal and sexual life, and all these kinds of questions become unnecessary.

Wishing you well,
aj

_____________________________

Throw me to the wolves because there's order in the pack (RHCP)

(in reply to PainfullyCurious)

Post #: 9

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 12:22:37 PM

OTK4uINLA

Posts: 3
Joined: 11/22/2009
Status: offline

I don't believe that a Dom/Master can ever expect to have a full trusting and supportive relationship with s sub/slave unless they are concerned with her emotional status. I have met a few who are in so much emotional turmoil that I won't even try anything that is D/s or M/s even temporarily. That's because I know that whatever I may do and however cautious I may be, I may cause more longterm emotional harm than if I don't do anything.

You cannot expect to have a fulfilling relationship in any situation if there is not concern and caring for a person's emotional state. Not only in a BDSM type of relationship, but whether boss/worker, a vinalla one, a parent/child, or anything else. In BDSM, both have a responsibility to be aware of the other's emotional state.

Behavior is always a result of or at least influenced by the situation. Some behehavior may be purposefull and intended to get a reaction, to get attention, to test limits, or get punishment. Other may be part of the scene and the BDSM relationship. And, no, I can't always tell the exact cause. Two way communication is a must to separate the two in a BDSM relationship. But I do have a responsibility to always try to be aware of my sub/slave's emotional state and to at least ask if I am not sure.

While oft debated, I do subscribe to the maxim that the "Opposite of love is not hate, but indifference."

(in reply to alittleevil)

Post #: 10

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 1:47:38 PM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PainfullyCurious

Let's move on. Someone close to your sub passes away. It happens.
She's going to have emotional issues for a while. That's what I mean when I talk about life throwing you a curve.

If you expect baggage to be neatly stowed and you expect complete honesty from her, how do you reconcile the two after a traumatic event?

Is your answer still: "I'm not a shrink."

Again, it's good to know yourself and it's fair if that's your answer, or even the answer of an overwhelming majority. This lifestyle might be easy to handle when things are good, but i'd like to think out what I'm in for when things are rough as well. If I'm not ready for it, one bad event would cause a huge chunk of my life to fall apart, instead of just being one bad event.

If someone close to me dies I won't have *emotional issues* ...it won't be *baggage* .......I'll just be very naturally sad for a while. He's perfectly capable of understanding things like that. It's got nothing to do with D/s or the *lifestyle*, it's just life. I would probably *behave* like a sad person and for a while he might own a sad slave but we both know these things pass.

I've had some horrendous side-swipes from life over the last 10 yrs....all unexpected and *just the luck of the draw* type things. He's done anything that he can do on a practical level and beyond that, just been genuinely concerned yet carried on as normal.

He doesn't make huge demands on me in everyday life anyway, has always been considerate and thoughtful when required, and I just expect him to be the same during times of huge crapola.

When my daughter almost died a few years ago, bdsm activities were the last thing on EITHER our minds, so was sex. I was still owned and I still did the things he directed as per normal. His direction has always been for the benfit of us both, so there's no reason , even during times of upheaval to be concerned. Whatever the situation, we both want the best possible outcome. I don't want to be a mess, he doesn't want me to be a mess....... we are both on the same side.

agirl

(in reply to PainfullyCurious)

Post #: 11

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 2:02:31 PM

KateyCaine

Posts: 274
Joined: 5/7/2009
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Aren't "emotional issues" or emotional vulnerabilities expressed in our behavior?? If a person is prone to anxiety or panic about rejection, unworthiness or abandonment, wouldn't they be externalised in outward behavior and reactions/ or learned responses to situations or words/phrases that might be misinterpreted or trigger past reactions???

_____________________________

Proud to be owned and cherished by Master Charles (Gauge)

i wear His collar on my heart; and wherever i am, i know He is with me.

His love and my devotion and service to Him are stronger than leather or steel.

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 12

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 2:26:18 PM

Acer49

Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PainfullyCurious

I'm noticing that by the time an experienced Dom posts on here about an "unruly sub," assuming he knows what he's doing, he's only at his wits end because the problem he is describing is emotional in nature, not behavioral. You guys have already mastered behavior.

Emotion does not respond to your attempts at behavior modification. It never will. You can not spank out feelings of anxiety, neglect or lingering abandonment issues. Emotion is a much more fickle creature and he lives in all of us.

My question, to each of you, as a Dom is: Do you know how to spot an emotional issue vs. a behavioral one? Do you think it's important for you to know the difference?

--------------------------------------------------

A note on why I ask:

I ask because, of course, it's important to me. No, not because I have a ton of emotional issues. That's not the case at all. I'm very lucky. No one's even touched me where they shouldn't have. My dad didn't run out on my family. My dog lived to a ripe old age. I do know my own worth and I could never willingly give myself over to someone who gives me a slap when I'm dying for a hug. (I don't think I need an abundance of either, but appling the wrong one to the given circumstance is always damaging.) If you plan to stick around long-term, life is sure to throw a few curve balls our way and emotional issues are sure to come up (and you shouldn't be depending on me to know what it is I need at a time like that).

Excuse the slight, but if it gets your attention, it's served it's purpose. From what I've been reading, I have grave concerns as to whether or not most Doms can put their bravado aside long enough to see an issue clearly. Sure, your sub wants to do what she can to make her world revolve around you, but everything does not revolve around you. To be so self-centered as to think that a sub who is such a mess that she's lost control of herself and called you 30 times in a row is doing it just to test you, to think that the primary issue is that she's stepping on your toes, well it's a little out of touch with reality. If you want her to give herself over to you, and to make your happiness her # 1 priority, then don't you have to take responsibility for keeping her safe?

As some of you already know, I am in the midst of deciding if this is the lifestyle that I want for myself. I know everyone is different, and I'd like to know how likely I am to find someone that I feel comfortable with.

Can I, no but then my crystal ball has been on the fritz like forever :(. I would sit her down and talk to her and sure as heck try to find out.

_____________________________

Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey Fierstein

(in reply to PainfullyCurious)

Post #: 13

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 2:31:36 PM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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Maybe. That very much depends on how ruled by emotions a person is or to what degree they are affected by them.

If I *feel* something grotty, I just say it. We have a conversation about it and it is plopped back in perspective .

There are ways and ways of going about things and though I'm not a fan of the word *trained*.....I've been trained to take the best most productive route . "Spit it out and let's put it to bed and not dwell on all the emotional drama". He pushes the emotional stuff to one side while he deals with the facts .....and more often than not the emotional stuff has dissapated by then.

agirl

(in reply to KateyCaine)

Post #: 14

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 4:35:24 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PainfullyCurious
Emotion does not respond to your attempts at behavior modification. It never will.

Says who? I frequently make direct alterations to Carol's emotional landscape. Sometimes, for smaller issues, I do so by flat out commanding her. For larger things, I offer up an alternate viewpoint which she has a strong tendency to accept. I grant that commanding her behavior is much more of a sure thing, but I have pretty good luck with her emotions too.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to PainfullyCurious)

Post #: 15

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 6:52:04 PM

PainfullyCurious

Posts: 157
Joined: 10/26/2009
Status: offline

When I say behavior modification, I mean it more in the clinical sense postive/negative reinforcement or punishment.

Offering an alternative view point is an excellent example of how every minor issue does NOT need intense psychotherapy. Certainly, thinking it out yourself or talking it out with someone close to you is very effective. There are also times when life forces you to face your fears. No shrink neccasary.

However, as in the example above, I'm sure you'd agree that you could not command her to stop greiving a loss.
In the long term though, reintroducing behavior modification along with a plan to sort out the emotional side, can help adverse behaviors that might have stemmed from something like grief.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 16

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 6:53:30 PM

PainfullyCurious

Posts: 157
Joined: 10/26/2009
Status: offline

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses!

I'd like to make note that I am in no way suggesting that any Dom try to be the sole source of help for someone with serious problems. Just that knowing when to call it (when it's time to push her for help instead of blaming her) might be a useful skill for someone who has taken on the responsibility that comes with putting themselves in a position of authority over another.

Now on to this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

Do you know how to spot an emotional issue vs. a behavioral one?

Define "emotional" v. "behavioral", please. And try to stay away from the word "issue", which is an obfuscation that doesn't mean anything.

I guess first I need to point out that I will be defining emotional by what it is not, and that can be frustrating in itself, so bear with me please.

The short definition, psychologically speaking, of a punisher, is that which decreases the future occurrences of a behavior.(Usually an adverse behavior.)

Many people think of a punishment simply as a consequence, or retribution, and when you think of it in those terms it does make the emotional problems harder to separate.

(A more detailed explanation of positive/negative reinforcement/punishment can be found here: http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/Wasserman/Glossary/punishment.html#np%20example )

Going on with the definition that punishment in effect, actually solves the problem, leaves us with the behaviors that proper reinforcement or punishment alone cannot or do not solve. Those voluntary behaviors that fall under the umbrella of mental rather than physical, and are immune to punishment are emotional.

Some examples would be behaviors that manifest as a result of anxiety, or trauma. Things like nightmares.
Again, I can't pinpoint specific behaviors because it's really the motivator, or driver behind it that defines it as the result of an emotional problem. I could call someone 20 times just to piss them off because I know their boss looks at their phone bill and having that punish me by say, withdrawing their attention, might make me stop.

I could also call someone 20 times because I am petrified that I don't know where they are and I'm afraid they aren't coming back. In that case, ignoring me and my calls is unlikely to change my behavior (and on the off chance that it did, it's more likely a result of learned helplessness/depression and should not be considered a welcome change).

Knowing some of the warning signs of depression, PTSD or generalized anxiety disorder is probably a responsible thing to do when the sub in your life allows you to take control of her, to use force with her, and to make matters more confusing, when there is a thin line between the hurt she likes and the hurt she doesn't.

Well, there's my Public Service Announcement for the day. That and, only you can prevent forest fires.

(in reply to PainfullyCurious)

Post #: 17

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 7:28:21 PM

sunshinemiss

Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

However, as in the example above, I'm sure you'd agree that you could not command her to stop greiving a loss.

I would not agree (and yes I have the degree to prove I can disagree here).

The emotions of grief can be filtered into more productive behavior. Talking one out of acting on unhealthy grief is absolutely possible. A huge portion of the psychiatric/psychological community is based on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. It works. Not always, but with a goodly amount of people.

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to PainfullyCurious)

Post #: 18

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 7:51:03 PM

breatheasone

Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

However, as in the example above, I'm sure you'd agree that you could not command her to stop greiving a loss.

I would not agree (and yes I have the degree to prove I can disagree here).

The emotions of grief can be filtered into more productive behavior. Talking one out of acting on unhealthy grief is absolutely possible. A huge portion of the psychiatric/psychological community is based on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. It works. Not always, but with a goodly amount of people.

Yes i agree with everything you said....What you STILL didn't do however, was to stop the person from grieving...You stopped the behavior resulting from the grief ....but not the grief.

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 19

RE: Behavior Vs. Emotion - 11/29/2009 7:53:08 PM

PainfullyCurious

Posts: 157
Joined: 10/26/2009
Status: offline

I don't disagree with anything that you said. Cognitive behavorial therapy would be both "a plan to figure out the emotional side" and "behavior modification".

The point I was making is that most likely some type of talk/therapy is needed in addition to a plan to change behavior.

I think I've confused myself. Are you saying you disagree with my statement, or with the statement I was replying to?

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

However, as in the example above, I'm sure you'd agree that you could not command her to stop greiving a loss.

I would not agree (and yes I have the degree to prove I can disagree here).

The emotions of grief can be filtered into more productive behavior. Talking one out of acting on unhealthy grief is absolutely possible. A huge portion of the psychiatric/psychological community is based on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. It works. Not always, but with a goodly amount of people.

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 20

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