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ORIGINAL: MasterIronwood

TRUE MASOCHIST: Please hurt me.
TRUE SADIST: No.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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ORIGINAL: MasterIronwood

TRUE MASOCHIST: Please hurt me.
TRUE SADIST: No.

Soeone already wrote this here.

Though there is something comical about that joke, and it is a fun way to tease someone, I don't think it really at the foundation to the S&M Kink dynamic.

- LA

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ORIGINAL: MasterIronwood

TRUE MASOCHIST: Please hurt me.
TRUE SADIST: No.

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ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued

Here's another example, more kinky this time. I'm not a slut (at least, not the bad kind), but in the heat of the moment, being called certain things (for example, a dirty, filthy, whore) makes me feel very conflicted. I'm not a whore, so I feel like I should stop immediately. Ah, but everything feels so good that I want to continue. Then, an inner voice on one shoulder says "just enjoy yourself and stop thinking about these things" followed by a voice from the other loudly proclaiming "but I'm not a slut"! This is all going on as my partner continues tormenting me and I continue grinding into her like the slut I've become at her ministrations. At some point, I let go, revealing a rawness and need that I feel embarrassed about, but that I can't control because my partner knew how to bring this out and I know how to feed this energy back to her, while simultaneously seducing her. The look for reassurance from my partner is always in my eyes and so is my lustful need for my partner. This works *every time* and a few, simple words are the trigger. Some might say this in contrived, but I'm one to think if something works and accomplishes a mutual goal, then go with it.

Before reading this thread, as a submissive, I didn't think I had any conflict. I enjoy my inner psyche and inner sexuality, and have been exploring this for many years so I've achieved a great comfort level within myself. Questions the ilk of "mmm, the kiss of the whip feels so good... but, I shouldn't like/need that sort of thing, should I" are things I've long since come to terms with. However, as I continue to mature and learn, I'm amazed at the complexity of emotional and cerebral layers inside my head. There's still plenty of conflict in there and this is conflict I enjoy a lot. :-)

Elan.

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ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

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ORIGINAL: DesFIP

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

• To this, my response in part was "this conflict of desires doesn't go away so quickly, and it can be layered and played with, in which case, as long as we are creative, we never really get bored of the boy! We just love him more each time he does it."

Going away so quickly is not the same thing as going away entirely. In six months the conflict will not disappear and possibly not in two years. But in 20 years? Which is what I consider a long term relationship, the conflict will disappear entirely.

What happens when the conflict does disappear entirely? You've avoided answering that repeatedly and instead have been subtly snarky instead. Or can you not sustain a long term relationship once the conflict is gone?

I've had the alleged "conflict" for longer than the time period you mention (20 years). Hasn't gone away yet. Maybe I've just been stubborn all these many years just so I could go on this message board and thumb ny nose at you? ;) Maybe the sun revolves around the earth, too! It's a strange world out there, after all. ;)

More seriously, I think this whole sadism/pain thing appears to be a conflict because it's been phrased that way from the start of the thread, as something tenuous, that has to change. But is it? And does it? For me, it can't change, and reason is extremely simple. I mentally and emotionally crave suffering (not pain, I'm not much of a masochist), always have (my earliest memories are of this craving), so I expect I will until I expire. I get off on anticipating suffering, I get off on thinking about it aftwards, but while it is happening, I just want it to stop. It's awful...while it is going on. Even if I get wet (which I usually do) in response, I don't "feel" wet. I don't feel the arousal, until later, when the pain stops. When playing with a sadist, it always hurts, bad, I always want to escape it, I just want it to end. But within days after it's over, my memory of the suffering will get less sharp. What remains sharp is the memory of being forced to suffer, and that's what arouses me, rather intensely as a matter of fact, and so leads me to want the experience again. That cycle never changes for me. You'd think I'd learn that simplest lesson: pain hurts, and try to avoid it as a result. Of course, I do try to avoid it, in all areas of my life. Except the ones in which I am a powerless victim of someone I am erotically involved with.

There are few things that confirm another person's control over me more than the infliction of shocking, extreme, unwanted pain, and since my fetish for powerlessness is quenchless, I will always seek out that which I hate. Pain is pain, it will still hurt, even if someone perversely trains you to orgasm from it. And for the few seconds of the orgasm, the pain will probably not hurt as bad, as a very powerful sensation can drown out another. But it will hurt up until that poiint and it will hurt after the intense but fleeting plesaure fades.

Other submissives, being different, may experience conflicts or lose their conflict over being tortured. I don't, and I also find it extremely hard to believe that there are not others who experience it as I do.

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ORIGINAL: DesFIP

OP my question when something like this comes up is always: What happens when you've taught him to enjoy it? Do you have to end the relationship with him because he's no longer finding it unenjoyable? If so, do you tell him in the beginning that the relationship has a built in end date? Because if you don't tell him beforehand that you'll be kicking him out once he's learned to like it, then you're being unethical.

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ORIGINAL: catize

I refuse to apologize for my masochism. It is, after all, a part of me, just as much as your sadism is a part of you.
I don't understand the problem and luckily I don't have to, because the sadistic men in my life enjoy the fact that I like the pain they dish out. Sometimes I drop deeply into sub space but other times they can cause pain exquisite enough to make me scream and swear and sob.
I enjoy it even when I don't. So sue me.
Or better yet, realize it is nothing more than a compatiblity issue. There is room enough and opportunity to find those we are in synch with, and we can decline to engage with thoise who are not what we want.

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ORIGINAL: catize

I refuse to apologize for my masochism. It is, after all, a part of me, just as much as your sadism is a part of you.
I don't understand the problem and luckily I don't have to, because the sadistic men in my life enjoy the fact that I like the pain they dish out. Sometimes I drop deeply into sub space but other times they can cause pain exquisite enough to make me scream and swear and sob.
I enjoy it even when I don't. So sue me.
Or better yet, realize it is nothing more than a compatiblity issue. There is room enough and opportunity to find those we are in synch with, and we can decline to engage with thoise who are not what we want.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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ORIGINAL: catize

I refuse to apologize for my masochism. It is, after all, a part of me, just as much as your sadism is a part of you.
I don't understand the problem and luckily I don't have to, because the sadistic men in my life enjoy the fact that I like the pain they dish out. Sometimes I drop deeply into sub space but other times they can cause pain exquisite enough to make me scream and swear and sob.
I enjoy it even when I don't. So sue me.
Or better yet, realize it is nothing more than a compatiblity issue. There is room enough and opportunity to find those we are in synch with, and we can decline to engage with thoise who are not what we want.

Can you explain to me where this is coming from? Was there any point where I mentioned that you had to apologize for being a masochist?

Granted, someone pulled up a 3 month old thread, which is still within the rules, but I'll have to go back and read to see if there is a point where I might have offended masochists, unless you would be kind enough to point me to what upset you.

- LA

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Can you explain to me where this is coming from? Was there any point where I mentioned that you had to apologize for being a masochist?

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i think i kinda understand where she's coming from. in a way the inferrance is that to enjoy pain means to some that youre in the 'do me' bracket - and for a sub thats really irksome.

i dont see her submission to pain any differently to mine other than i struggle to get there and she doesnt (lucky moo! ) - she is still submitting herself to the pleasure of her Master/Dominant.

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ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

In BDSM, everyone you torture is willing. So don't fool yourself or try and bullshit me about the topic of willing verses unwilling.

The more of these threads I see, the more the misunderstanding spreads. Even the OP addresses impossible contradictions that a deeper understanding of psychology and S&M would reveal. If they come to you … that IS consent, they are willing. Ever other facet of it is role playing, not reality. You are NOT "bending their will" ... their will is to be there with you or they wouldn't have come.

So many people are fooling themselves when they compare one kind of role play against another ... When a partner “begs for it”, the only difference is that YOU don't like the verbalization . . . it interferes with your style of role play.

Unless you have really kidnapped and/or tortured someone against their will, you couldn't even begin to fathom the differences between a willing or an unwilling subject.