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Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 12:56:08 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		Like a lot of people, I've been curious about just what's going to be in this legislation. What is it going to contain, precisely?

Well, here's a taste of it...

"The legislation lists 1,697 times where the secretary of health and humans services is given the authority to create, determine or define things in the bill," said Devon Herrick, a health care expert at the National Center for Policy Analysis.

For instance, on Page 122 of the 2,079-page bill, the secretary is given the power to establish "the basic per enrollee, per month cost, determined on average actuarial basis, for including coverage under a qualified health care plan."

The HHS secretary would also have the power to decide where abortion is allowed under a government-run plan, which has drawn opposition from Republicans and some moderate Democrats.

And the bill even empowers the department to establish a Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation that would have the authority to make cost-saving cuts without having to get the approval of Congress first.

"It's a huge amount of power being shifted to HHS, and much of it is highly discretionary," said Edmund Haislmaier, an expert in health care policy and insurance markets at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank.

In other words, the effective content of the legislation with respect to whatever is covered in those 1,697 points is, "Whatever she decides." Well damn, that solves the whole problem of debate eh?

I don't call this a health-care bill, I call it a coronation.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/30/2009 1:03:51 PM >
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 1:21:46 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Don't a lot of bills work like that? I seem to recall there being gaps in the Patriot Act that would be defined by the chief executive after that was voted through.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 1:36:23 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Don't a lot of bills work like that? I seem to recall there being gaps in the Patriot Act that would be defined by the chief executive after that was voted through.

Well sure, up to a point. But to leave 1,697 components of a bill that Congress is supposed to debate and vote on up to the "discretion" of the HHS Secretary is ridiculous. Just give her a fucking crown and be done with it.

K.


(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 1:40:28 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		That's a fair few points, true enough. On the other hand, maybe they're doing that because the Republicans are trying to block every point they actually define?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 1:48:46 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

That's a fair few points, true enough. On the other hand, maybe they're doing that because the Republicans are trying to block every point they actually define?

Hey, like it or not they were elected too yanno. Democracy is messy. You'd rather the trains run on time?

K.

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 1:50:56 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Don't a lot of bills work like that? I seem to recall there being gaps in the Patriot Act that would be defined by the chief executive after that was voted through.


Well then lets do the same thing and put in a provision that this Bill will expire as will most of the bite behind the Patriot Act.

Rushed into law by Congress just weeks after Sept. 11, 2001 three controversial provisions of the Patriot Act granting officials far-reaching surveillance and seizure powers in the name of national security, are due to expire this New Year's Eve.

Another non sequitur comparison attempt to make this bad Bill not as bad as previous bad Bills.

Has this plan gotten so bad and Obama's credibility to low that blaming Bush is no longer enough and you have to also have a specific reference source, albeit irrelevant, to speak directly to the issue raised?

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 1:53:18 PM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		And did those expire???? 

I could not read it with that dam ad running

As for blaming Bush, well it seems to get worse for him, as the British say he lied to there PM about the war, so no, it will take much more for Obama to be worse than Bush

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/11/29/iraq-war-inquiry-blair/


< Message edited by housesub4you -- 11/30/2009 1:59:23 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 1:59:48 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you
And did those expire????  

Rushed into law by Congress just weeks after Sept. 11, 2001 three controversial provisions of the Patriot Act granting officials far-reaching surveillance and seizure powers in the name of national security, are due to expire this New Year's Eve. Reading works!

Unless of course the current Administration and Congress decided to extend them.

Another fact making the comparison irrelevant - this was passed by the Senate 98 - 1 - 1. Most of the people, (you perhaps?) re-elected those who passed the Patriot Act. I wonder if the same can be expected after, or if, the Health Bill passes?



(in reply to housesub4you)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 2:04:04 PM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		Ok still that dam ad is still to dam loud for me to read the page, no reason to post it so fucking loud with your script.   I mean I bitched about the sound level, and my volume is on zero
\


Of course there is always this

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/DOJ/story?id=4661216&page=1

I mean what;s an abuse of power when anyway




< Message edited by housesub4you -- 11/30/2009 2:11:20 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 2:20:25 PM   
SirAldwyn


Posts: 44
Joined: 10/15/2009
Status: offline 		so I guess, even though portions are under legal review because tey are thought to be illegal, we should just say the hell with it approve it again???   Your article claims there are portions which are illegal

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 2:23:42 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

so I guess, even though portions are under legal review because tey are thought to be illegal, we should just say the hell with it approve it again??? Your article claims there are portions which are illegal
Were the Patriot Act the topic of this thread, I'd point out to you that the "legal review" reference has nothing to do with the portions that WILL expire.

"WE" - Don't get a vote. Your, Senator and Congressperson did and do. Whether you are an advocate or not, was your vote to reelect them affected by that fact? My post is silent on the hijacking, irrelevant Patriot Act issue but I can assure you since I didn't vote for any incumbent I did not vote to reelect anyone. So unless you too voted against any incumbent representative from your District/State or are from the one State that had the one Senator who voted against it, I'd say your have supported the Patriot Act and those who made it the law of the land much more than me.

It will be interesting to see how this will be spun by this Congress and Administration who will be announcing another huge troop surge into Afghanistan. Granted not to find WMD, then again what it is exactly they are going to do different or better than the existing troops on the ground will have to wait for 'prime time' Obama show announcing it tomorrow night.


Now since the irrelevance of a comparison to the Patriot Act has been addressed...

So much power and arbitrary ability in the hands of one person. Good or Bad?

The term itself, "cost savings cuts" isn't defined. Is it limited to what will be acceptable payment to the evil drug companies or can it be interpreted down to the consumer?

The cost of the product, different under different conditions, how will that be different, or better, than what the insurance companies, who have their rates regulated by State Statue, are doing now?

Need what ifs to consider...

What if your illness or disease is self contributory, like weight, smoking, drinking, or sentient lifestyle. Will you have to qualify and prove your illness is genetic, the result of a bad thyroid, or just because you have no self control and need ADD medication?

What if the HHS decides that $100/year to keep one non-ambulatory person alive isn't the best way to use the funds available? Good or Bad? Make age a variable; infant, 1-5, 6-10, 10-21, 21-65, 65 - whatever the age where the cost benefit is deemed excessive. You can also vary the amount and pick another 'magic number'.

The answer of course it, that "we have to do something" or "it's got to be better than what is in place now". Really? All it does is change the rules, and the source of them. It will be the government - which is always seems to be the best solution for some - until they actually get involved.

This individual or committee, without needing to consult with Congress, would have that ability; not an insurance company, not involving interpretation of insurance policy language.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 11/30/2009 2:37:56 PM >

(in reply to housesub4you)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 2:35:11 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

And did those expire???? 

I could not read it with that dam ad running

As for blaming Bush, well it seems to get worse for him, as the British say he lied to there PM about the war, so no, it will take much more for Obama to be worse than Bush

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/11/29/iraq-war-inquiry-blair/


Actually, we don't. The issue is more that he knew that the excuse for the invasion of Iraq was complete and utter bullshit, but still had a few people falsify evidence to support the conclusions Bush wanted drawn. A few people have connected that to the fact that the contract for the "independant nuclear deterrent" Trident was up for review the following year, and that he was desperate to keep the chimp happy. I'm quite happy to see that the enquiry isn't doing him any good at all, but it could be taking a far sterner line.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to housesub4you)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 2:51:08 PM   
SirAldwyn


Posts: 44
Joined: 10/15/2009
Status: offline 		It is odd how you speak about our vote and voice, yet I can't find an example of your same complaint when the act was voted into law.  

I at the very least have had the same POV and vote (be it right or wrong) since the war began, you it seems simply stand on the fence and bitch about everyone while never standing up for 1 side or the other.

It is very easy top tear anything apart when you make no clear choice

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 4:07:35 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirAldwyn
It is odd how you speak about our vote and voice, yet I can't find an example of your same complaint when the act was voted into law.  
I at the very least have had the same POV and vote (be it right or wrong) since the war began, you it seems simply stand on the fence and bitch about everyone while never standing up for 1 side or the other.

It is very easy top tear anything apart when you make no clear choice
You need to do better research, or maybe do something even better - ask.

What subject would you like my clear choice provided, or did you expect me to include them all on every subject in a response to your intellectual challenge?

On the issue at hand, Health Care, legislate out pre-existing conditions, subsidize lower income individuals and families providing 'vouchers' for them to acquire coverage, provide for 'catastrophic' care as a policy rider, eliminate the Congressional exclusion for coverage making our representative 'enjoy' the same privileges they are giving the citizens. I also would like to see an expansion of the military health service to include domestic deployment operating and staffing domestic hospitals for the 'uninsured'.

On the war - same as it was from Day 1; do not deploy one troop EVER. Let the locals kill each other as they have been for the past 4000 years.

This isn't the first time I've detailed some options, your search skills must me pretty weak not to find them. You want to make it about me - I'm fine with that. Now - why not tell me why you are so pleased, happy and content under this Bill, this Administration, this Congress; ideally pointing to one of their many accomplishments. At least that way - you'll be searching a very short list.

(in reply to SirAldwyn)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 7:58:54 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline

The heritage foundation is nothing but a phony conservative think tank set up to justify corporate profits and in this case it pertains to the insurance industry. Listen to Robert Kennedy Junior explain what's really going on and I would further add the statement made which starts this thread by the heritage foundation is crap. It's actually really good fertilizer for your garden.

I recommend you watch part two as well so you can see him receive the appropriate applause he deserves.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: truth about the Bush presidency 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WonM34-OpuY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Like a lot of people, I've been curious about just what's going to be in this legislation. What is it going to contain, precisely?

Well, here's a taste of it...

"The legislation lists 1,697 times where the secretary of health and humans services is given the authority to create, determine or define things in the bill," said Devon Herrick, a health care expert at the National Center for Policy Analysis.

For instance, on Page 122 of the 2,079-page bill, the secretary is given the power to establish "the basic per enrollee, per month cost, determined on average actuarial basis, for including coverage under a qualified health care plan."

The HHS secretary would also have the power to decide where abortion is allowed under a government-run plan, which has drawn opposition from Republicans and some moderate Democrats.

And the bill even empowers the department to establish a Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation that would have the authority to make cost-saving cuts without having to get the approval of Congress first.

"It's a huge amount of power being shifted to HHS, and much of it is highly discretionary," said Edmund Haislmaier, an expert in health care policy and insurance markets at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank.

In other words, the effective content of the legislation with respect to whatever is covered in those 1,697 points is, "Whatever she decides." Well damn, that solves the whole problem of debate eh?

I don't call this a health-care bill, I call it a coronation.

K.




(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 8:04:02 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain



The heritage foundation is nothing but a phony conservative think tank set up to justify corporate profits and in this case it pertains to the insurance industry. Listen to Robert Kennedy Junior explain what's really going on and I would further add the statement made which starts this thread by the heritage foundation is crap. It's actually really good fertilizer for your garden.

I recommend you watch part two as well so you can see him receive the appropriate applause he deserves.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: truth about the Bush presidency 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WonM34-OpuY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Like a lot of people, I've been curious about just what's going to be in this legislation. What is it going to contain, precisely?

Well, here's a taste of it...

"The legislation lists 1,697 times where the secretary of health and humans services is given the authority to create, determine or define things in the bill," said Devon Herrick, a health care expert at the National Center for Policy Analysis.

For instance, on Page 122 of the 2,079-page bill, the secretary is given the power to establish "the basic per enrollee, per month cost, determined on average actuarial basis, for including coverage under a qualified health care plan."

The HHS secretary would also have the power to decide where abortion is allowed under a government-run plan, which has drawn opposition from Republicans and some moderate Democrats.

And the bill even empowers the department to establish a Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation that would have the authority to make cost-saving cuts without having to get the approval of Congress first.

"It's a huge amount of power being shifted to HHS, and much of it is highly discretionary," said Edmund Haislmaier, an expert in health care policy and insurance markets at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank.

In other words, the effective content of the legislation with respect to whatever is covered in those 1,697 points is, "Whatever she decides." Well damn, that solves the whole problem of debate eh?

I don't call this a health-care bill, I call it a coronation.

K.






Ad hominen doesnt fly. The statements are facts, which I know you have trouble dealing with now and then.

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 8:17:40 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

The heritage foundation is nothing but a phony conservative think tank... and I would further add the statement made which starts this thread by the heritage foundation is crap.

What's crap is a hijack like this one. And I would further add, the statement "which starts this thread" (excluding my own) was made by Devon Herrick of the National Center for Policy Analysis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I recommend you watch part two as well...

I recommend you find a different thread in which to rant about Bush and the Heritage Foundation.

Thank you.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/30/2009 8:52:22 PM >

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 10:40:48 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

The heritage foundation is nothing but a phony conservative think tank... and I would further add the statement made which starts this thread by the heritage foundation is crap.

What's crap is a hijack like this one. And I would further add, the statement "which starts this thread" (excluding my own) was made by Devon Herrick of the National Center for Policy Analysis.



The National Center for Policy Analysis is a conservative think tank closely aligned with the Heritage Foundation.

It's not a hijack to consider the source of the statements and their motivations.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Health Care Coronation - 11/30/2009 11:15:14 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
I suppose any conservative-leaning organization could be said to be "aligned" with any other, as far as that goes. But the purpose of this thread is to debate the possible passage of a health-care bill that does not reveal what Congress is actually voting for, leaving that detail up to the HHS Secretary to decide after the fact.

If someone can show that any of the statements reported in the press with respect to this bill are false or misleading, regardless of their source, that's certainly germane. But I consider people who just want to wander in and shit on the floor to be off-topic. And yeah I know, it's hopeless.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/30/2009 11:28:06 PM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Health Care Coronation - 12/1/2009 12:05:50 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


I suppose any conservative-leaning organization could be said to be "aligned" with any other, as far as that goes. But the purpose of this thread is to debate the possible passage of a health-care bill that does not reveal what Congress is actually voting for, leaving that detail up to the HHS Secretary to decide after the fact.
And to debate that you are using an article quoting representatives of two conservative organizations firmly in opposition to health care reform and want everyone to blindly accept what they are saying as credible.

Seems to limit the debate somewhat.

Just out of curiosity, do you still believe the death panels are true?

The Heritage Foundation's Thomas Sowell wrote a column, "Utopia Versus Freedom," in which he warned readers to "not be surprised when life-and-death decisions about you or your family are taken out of your hands — and out of the hands of your doctor — and transferred to bureaucrats in Washington."

But hey, you enjoy your unbiased discussion with your unbiased sources.  I think I'll stay out of it.  Not to worry though, I'm sure you will have plenty of health care opponents to applaud you and your sources.









< Message edited by rulemylife -- 12/1/2009 12:17:10 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)
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