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RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/3/2009 11:47:57 AM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
Status: offline 		Dealing quickly with only one part of your post...I beleive the vast majority of muslims seek only to live in peace.In a counterpoint though,reality demands that we aknowledge that there is ,contained within this larger body of muslims the fanatic(why Islam lends itself so to this I haven't a clue...why the larger majority seems to remain silent on this issue...again I have no answers)adherants of Islam are a most dangerous lot
Again pragmatism Merc...we have already been attacked by this brand of fanaticism allowing it to fester and breed is simply not an option.Neither is wiping out the whole lot of them.....so a surgical removal of the cancer seems the only course left to us IMO
I'll try and get back to the rest of it later

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/3/2009 12:20:42 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Again pragmatism Merc...we have already been attacked by this brand of fanaticism allowing it to fester and breed is simply not an option.Neither is wiping out the whole lot of them.....so a surgical removal of the cancer seems the only course left to us IMO


The use of "surgical removal" sounds dangerously close to the reasoning used to get Saddam out of Iraq or Iraq out of Kuwait. In fact I think that was the driving force for the majority of positive votes in Congress. Wrong in my opinion, then and now, but I guess it points out how easily it is to convince yourself that such a thing is possible.

Why is it an American problem to address fanaticism festering and breeding? Again, if necessary and in a position to do so, I would put it as a challenge to the Islamic world to police themselves.

I would represent, leaving the area and allowing them to do so, or by the same token not do so, will be indicative of either how America repressed a 'good people' bent on peace, or something else. Either way, it won't maintain the status quo of 'acceptable casualties' to police a sovereign nation for an indeterminate time with interment goals.

We've committed to leave - in 18 months. A delay for politics more than a delay in expectation of a different result. There has been no fact or factor that points to any other reasoning. In that case, I say - let's get to the result sooner as opposed to later.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/3/2009 1:15:53 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Again pragmatism Merc...we have already been attacked by this brand of fanaticism allowing it to fester and breed is simply not an option.Neither is wiping out the whole lot of them.....so a surgical removal of the cancer seems the only course left to us IMO


The use of "surgical removal" sounds dangerously close to the reasoning used to get Saddam out of Iraq or Iraq out of Kuwait. In fact I think that was the driving force for the majority of positive votes in Congress. Wrong in my opinion, then and now, but I guess it points out how easily it is to convince yourself that such a thing is possible. What I am convinced of is that it is the only acceptible path open to us...ignoring the cancer would seem foolish.....destroying the host(Islam as a whole) uncivilised

Why is it an American problem to address fanaticism festering and breeding? Again, if necessary and in a position to do so, I would put it as a challenge to the Islamic world to police themselves. While we certainly need to impress upon the Islamic street as a whole that it is in their best interests to "police themselves"...we do not accomplish that by sitting on the sidelines and assuring them of total destruction if they do not comply.
Short answer...we are a Nation with many international interests and concerns...we can not afford to adopt the posture of a turtle.

I would represent, leaving the area and allowing them to do so, or by the same token not do so, will be indicative of either how America repressed a 'good people' bent on peace, or something else. Either way, it won't maintain the status quo of 'acceptable casualties' to police a sovereign nation for an indeterminate time with interment goals.
See above answer.
We've committed to leave - in 18 months. A delay for politics more than a delay in expectation of a different result. There has been no fact or factor that points to any other reasoning. In that case, I say - let's get to the result sooner as opposed to later.While it may be a delay for politics....its not American politics the time line is strictly set for...its Afghani politicians who need to know there is a limit to American forbearance and patience.Timeline,as you being a businessman well know,tend to focus people on the job at hand.


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/3/2009 1:46:55 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

quote:

Why is it an American problem to address fanaticism festering and breeding? Again, if necessary and in a position to do so, I would put it as a challenge to the Islamic world to police themselves.
While we certainly need to impress upon the Islamic street as a whole that it is in their best interests to "police themselves"...we do not accomplish that by sitting on the sidelines and assuring them of total destruction if they do not comply.

Mike, "Comply" with what? Joining in a world where whatever religion you chose doesn't require the elimination of all other choices? Left alone, you don't think that would be the result? Doesn't speak well for the future of peace 18 months or 18 centuries.

It wouldn't be outside influences that then assure their destruction it would be the practitioners. Again if that's your worry and you think that is the case; what will change in the next 18 months of deployment announced by the President?

I also don't understand why allowing for the self determination of a people is now an example of the US adopting "the posture of a turtle"? Are you advocating that in any case throughout the world that the US decide who is on the side of right and then step in and police conditions which insure our version of right is being used by the indigenous population? Shouldn't that be the position of some one true way 'right winger'? You further say that as long as we are protecting "international interests and concerns" that we must militarily insure those interests are protected? Wasn't that the exact position of the Administration in place for the past 8 years? Mike - Are you a closeted Republican?

(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/3/2009 1:53:41 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
Status: offline 		LOL Merc I'm not a closeted anything.You present a false dilemma ,I don't care one whit how they choose to live.....and as I'm sure you are well aware that is not why we are there.
We are there because elements of the fanatics export their terror....when I used the word comply it was in this sense...not in any attempt to impose our way of life on them.
When did it become a republican/democrat thing to admit that we have interests and security concerns that extend beyond our borders .

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/3/2009 1:56:45 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:


While we certainly need to impress upon the Islamic street as a whole that it is in their best interests to "police themselves"...we do not accomplish that by sitting on the sidelines and assuring them of total destruction if they do not comply.


quote:

Why is it an American problem to address fanaticism festering and breeding? Again, if necessary and in a position to do so, I would put it as a challenge to the Islamic world to police themselves.


This exchange is making me feel like a moderate.

1). Police yourselves (agree with Merc)
2). do not meddle in internals in the middle east (agree with mike)


3). Oh, hell no......they can cut off heads, grease up assholes, pray however they want and dress their women in fucking camelskins for all I give a fuck. Step outside your border, and try and bring your brand of enlightenment to the world, and America SHOULD WILL AND CAN annihilate your ass (techno, no ground troops) because we are some bullying motherfuckers, and we can!!!! (but I would proceed from that bit of radicalism with clean hands (which we don't have and gotta get)).

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/3/2009 2:17:39 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

We are there because elements of the fanatics export their terror....when I used the word comply it was in this sense...not in any attempt to impose our way of life on them.
Sorry Mike, I can't let you off the hook so easy. Self determination includes policing your own fanatics. We sure as hell have them here and we see their actions regularly. I've never seen any majority, or large minority, rationalize the acceptance of suicide bombing, or when some domestic terrorist like Timothy McVeigh blows up a building The actions are universally condemned and any faction justifying those actions is appropriately labeled out of touch with society.

Why is it that you seem to fear applying those standards to the Islamic religion or specifically those countries in the Middle East identifying themselves as Muslim? What makes it necessary for the US to police those elements from the distance involved, both practically and philosophically?
quote:

When did it become a republican/democrat thing to admit that we have interests and security concerns that extend beyond our borders .
Mike - But it IS a "republican/democrat" thing. It can't be more clear based upon Obama's actions, as a Democrat; mirroring those of Bush, the Republican. Those party labels only serve to make us, the citizens, take what we see as 'sides'. The reality is there is no distinction; which has been my point for years!

quote:

do not meddle in internals in the middle east (agree with mike)


Ron, 'The Moderate' (For a minute there I thought you became a Moderator!)

That "do not meddle" position was mine too! Mike things we should meddle because we can not afford to adopt the posture of a turtle. (Am I right with that Mike?) Of did I get it wrong and you agree with Mike that ongoing US intervention in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world is our duty?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 12/3/2009 2:18:58 PM >

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RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/3/2009 3:11:49 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		No Merc you got turtle part right....lol.
Now as far as self policing goes you seem to be making my case for me...we as a society do not condone nor export our fanaticism(that statement might in itself get me more than a few responses disputing it...so be it)Hence no need for someone else to "help" us.
As recent history tells us though...the same can not be said for radical Islam...hence our need and yes our justification for being there.
Again President Obama is not mirroring President Bush's action...if he were he would be ignoring Afghanistan ...as his predecesser did ever since he cast his eyes at Sadaam.
One other small point...the idea of parties does not mean they have to be diametrically opposed to each other.As a matter of fact since they are both American political parties their goals should actually be the same....their differences should be one of how best to reach those goals.
Merc regardless of what my posting here leads you to beleive...I don't feel Democrats have a monopoly on good ideas...or that all Republicans are stupid bigots.....what I do feel is that at this point in time one of our two parties has been hijacked by small minded right wing religious nuts....and it must cllean house in order to find its way back to the mainstream.
Once that is done...they will once again be the counterpoint they should be to the tendancy on the Democratic side to lean too far left.....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/3/2009 3:35:46 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Mike, If only international and local adversaries could talk it out as reasonably; there'd be no need for anyone to police anyone else.

That said - of course - I'll highlight the only point in your post that I do not agree; "As recent history tells us though...the same can not be said for radical Islam...hence our need and yes our justification for being there. "

Here, I believe, is a fundamental prejudice that infects so many having honest and altruistic motives behind their actions or support of actions. To stand behind that position requires you to believe that Islam, as a religion, and its practitioners as a people, aren't able, and shouldn't be allowed, to take care of themselves. Mike, that's a set up for self fulfilling prophecy! Our very presence, as the NY Times article we previously noted, speaks to that very point. As long as there is US, or any outside source, intervening; that becomes the rallying cry for the very thing we're allegedly there to combat.

I've told this story a bunch of times before to make a similar point concerning AA/EEO. A black man I promoted to VP status back in my days working for huge bank, took me aside once as asked if my promotion was motivated by AA. It wasn't, but the mere fact he had to ask points to how insidious prejudicial practices perpetrate prejudicial thought and suspicion.

I'm not defending or justifying the actions of the 'Palestinians' but although it can be argued that the Arab/Muslim world hasn't done all it should to create a homeland for those people so identified; you can't challenge the fact that they've never been given the chance to govern themselves in a place they could consider their own. The 'right' to Palestine notwithstanding, you never know what a person or people can do - until you let them do it.

Success or failure; being allowed to try is, I feel, a basic human right. A person values success when they know and appreciate it coming as a result of their own efforts. As was the case with my now, 30+ year friend who owns his own financial services company in Philly, he valued himself much more when he knew for sure it was his merit and not his race which caused me to promote him. He gave me an appreciation that programs like AA/EEO, which by definition make a certain group of people 'more equal' than others, are a determent to the very cause of equality that it hoped to achieve.

Why denigrate and assume the inability of the Islamic people to do the same when it comes to self determination and self policing? Your point is well taken, and perhaps you have more supporting your position that Islam can't be relied upon to do the same, however I don't think they've ever been given the opportunity. Honestly, I'm kinda surprised you don't think they should be given one; at least without the US standing by to make sure it all goes right.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/3/2009 3:51:09 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		9/11 Merc...the historical precedences not withstanding.What was left for the US to do...now I know our participation in the area predates that act...but as I said in an earlier post...OIL
An inconveinent truth(to borrow a phrase from one of your favorite movies?)but there is a whole lot of it in the area.Making it a strategic area right now regardless of what we should have done or aren't doing about alternative energy sources.It's not just our access to that oil we defend either...its our allies access
Again though this argument/discussion is pointless.....leaving is not an option(for reasons previously enumerated...Pakistan and nukes).....nuking the area is also not an option(again previously discussed...jsut not the behavior of a civilized society)
So we reinforce and set a hard target date to induce Kabul to step up to the plate and as you say govern themselves.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/3/2009 4:18:34 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
9/11 Merc...the historical precedences not withstanding.What was left for the US to do...now I know our participation in the area predates that act...but as I said in an earlier post...OIL
An inconveinent truth(to borrow a phrase from one of your favorite movies?)but there is a whole lot of it in the area.Making it a strategic area right now regardless of what we should have done or aren't doing about alternative energy sources.It's not just our access to that oil we defend either...its our allies access
Again though this argument/discussion is pointless.....leaving is not an option(for reasons previously enumerated...Pakistan and nukes).....nuking the area is also not an option(again previously discussed...jsut not the behavior of a civilized society)
So we reinforce and set a hard target date to induce Kabul to step up to the plate and as you say govern themselves.

Well, we are at an impasse. Then again, you have a better understanding and insight about what we are "reinforcing" than I do.

As much as its worth coming from someone who identifies his religious affiliation as orthodox pragmatist, I have 'faith' that, fundamentalists considered, fundamentally the people of Islam have the same desire to live as anybody. Our need for OIL is equal to the one 'god' we share with them and all cultures - money. They don't get any if they don't sell any or make it unusable by nuking the ground its found under.

I dare say, Mike, its been my experience in talking to people in every part of the world that I've visited; your position that the US must be in charge of enforcing militarily global politics and policy is the single most reason given for the global resentment to the US.

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RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/3/2009 4:30:15 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Why is it an American problem to address fanaticism festering and breeding? Again, if necessary and in a position to do so, I would put it as a challenge to the Islamic world to police themselves.



Bush`s reason for going to Afghanistan was to avoid another 9/11. I supported that view and am glad the UK also sent troops in. Iraq was different, my view is it was more about oil and petrodollars.

The CIA were tracking Bin Laden, as he retreated from Tora Bora and requested 800 US Rangers be posted along the Pakistan Border to block his path. This was vetoed by Bush and the top brass, if it hadnt been things in Afghanistan might be on a different level to now.

Afghanistan has always been, and will always be tribal, if Bush didnt have an exit strategy he whould never have gone in. Obama is on a lose/lose situation here, as well we both know.

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RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/3/2009 5:26:04 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
9/11 Merc...the historical precedences not withstanding.What was left for the US to do...now I know our participation in the area predates that act...but as I said in an earlier post...OIL
An inconveinent truth(to borrow a phrase from one of your favorite movies?)but there is a whole lot of it in the area.Making it a strategic area right now regardless of what we should have done or aren't doing about alternative energy sources.It's not just our access to that oil we defend either...its our allies access
Again though this argument/discussion is pointless.....leaving is not an option(for reasons previously enumerated...Pakistan and nukes).....nuking the area is also not an option(again previously discussed...jsut not the behavior of a civilized society)
So we reinforce and set a hard target date to induce Kabul to step up to the plate and as you say govern themselves.

Well, we are at an impasse. Then again, you have a better understanding and insight about what we are "reinforcing" than I do.

As much as its worth coming from someone who identifies his religious affiliation as orthodox pragmatist, I have 'faith' that, fundamentalists considered, fundamentally the people of Islam have the same desire to live as anybody. Our need for OIL is equal to the one 'god' we share with them and all cultures - money. They don't get any if they don't sell any or make it unusable by nuking the ground its found under.

I dare say, Mike, its been my experience in talking to people in every part of the world that I've visited; your position that the US must be in charge of enforcing militarily global politics and policy is the single most reason given for the global resentment to the US.
Bullshit Merc...you are either being overly generous or extremely condecending when you state I have a better understanding and insight about  what we are reinforcing than you do.
I'm going to go with the over generous on this......I prefer to think you wouldn't treat me in a condecending way......but you see I'm an optimist whee most things are concerned.
You may be right abot the source of discontent with America and her policies....but it is what it is.History has placed us in this position we shirk our responsibilities at our own peril....and I guess the reverse is true...we accept those responsibilities at our own peril too.
An impasse perhaps but it has been a most pleasant exchange of veiws....thanks!

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 12/3/2009 5:33:52 PM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/3/2009 5:30:45 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Why is it an American problem to address fanaticism festering and breeding? Again, if necessary and in a position to do so, I would put it as a challenge to the Islamic world to police themselves.



Bush`s reason for going to Afghanistan was to avoid another 9/11. I supported that view and am glad the UK also sent troops in. Iraq was different, my view is it was more about oil and petrodollars.

The CIA were tracking Bin Laden, as he retreated from Tora Bora and requested 800 US Rangers be posted along the Pakistan Border to block his path. This was vetoed by Bush and the top brass, if it hadnt been things in Afghanistan might be on a different level to now.

Afghanistan has always been, and will always be tribal, if Bush didnt have an exit strategy he whould never have gone in. Obama is on a lose/lose situation here, as well we both know.
Not sure I can agree with your statement that if "Bush didn't have an exit strategy he would never have gone in."
As proof of that I offer ....Iraq.
Apparently part of Obama's current plan is to take into account that the less populated areas of Afghanistan is and always will be tribal...and is seeking to work with these facts...instead of ignoring them.
800 Rangers....and perhaps bin Laden is dead or captired years ago...what a kick in the ass heh?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Will you listen, then judge or is your mind made up? - 12/4/2009 1:48:07 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Mike, a typo from me, I meant SHOULD.........

As for the Rangers, a combined special ops team were chasing Bin Laden and co from Tora Bora and the chief CIA bod had requested the Rangers. I am pretty sure if that had happened OBL would have been caught, dead or alive.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
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