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Government must exist - 12/3/2009 7:49:11 AM   
couldbemage


Posts: 112
Joined: 7/16/2008
Status: offline 		We, as humans, are simply stuck with government. It has to exist, and cannot be gotten rid of. I'm not condoning any particular governmental action. Or saying that government is good. Just that we cannot escape it. Cannot exist without it. If all government was wiped out tomorrow, new governmental entities would spring up by the afternoon. ...And contrary to what someone said in the jefferson thread; total governmental control was not invented by the soviets. It is rather the standard form of government. And to reiterate; I'm not condoning anything. Just talking about what is and has been.
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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 8:54:58 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Probably true. You won't get very far arguing that with a libertarian, though.

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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 9:00:13 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Ja, moon, and it sure is gonna be fighting words to anarchists and nihilists.

BombthrowerRon

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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 9:16:49 AM   
Silence8


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Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Ja, moon, and it sure is gonna be fighting words to anarchists and nihilists.

BombthrowerRon


Nihilists? Since when is nihilism a political position?

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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 9:21:02 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		whats the point of politics, of government, of anything?

Ned Nihilist

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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 9:43:45 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

We, as humans, are simply stuck with government. It has to exist, and cannot be gotten rid of.


So long as scarcity exists, whether by design or by default, along with the competition it breeds... what you say is true. Government will continue to exist.

(in reply to couldbemage)
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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 11:43:52 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		The Existentialists have no comment.

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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 1:22:11 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Probably true. You won't get very far arguing that with a libertarian, though.



Probably true but Libertarianism has more in common with Communism than it does the experience of human nature.

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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 2:06:07 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

libertarian
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Probably true. You won't get very far arguing that with a libertarian, though.


Most libertarians are for minimal government, sure there are extremists just like every other political philosophy, however, most of those call themselves anarchists and don't even use the term libertarian.

Anyway, your statement is ignorant at best.

edited to add. Even I concede some amount of government in some form is necessary. Always has and always will. The debate is over the size of the government at least for 99% of the population.


< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 12/3/2009 2:08:26 PM >

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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 2:44:06 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		A government of the people, and by the people is necessary. A government seperate and unanswerable to the people is a what we currently have.

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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 3:27:00 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		The best type of government is made up of people who do not seek positions of power over people. To me anyone who actively seeks power over people is suspicious. Policies are only made to attract voters to enable a person their goal in governance.

Leaders are born, not created and the best kind of leader, is a leader who does not seek to lead.

If we must have government, then let it be the right kind of government, not the tossers we have now.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 12/3/2009 3:28:34 PM >

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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 3:30:40 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

If we must have government, then let it be the right kind of government, not the tossers we have now.



....but they're always the tossers we have now. Even then, it was the tossers we have now.

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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 4:07:36 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I completely agree, and was having this discussion with someone the other day. In some of the new towns and cities, as civilization spread, often a business or landowner would just be nominated by the citizens. This person didn't seek the job, and often were not even paid, but they were a community leader.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

The best type of government is made up of people who do not seek positions of power over people. To me anyone who actively seeks power over people is suspicious. Policies are only made to attract voters to enable a person their goal in governance.

Leaders are born, not created and the best kind of leader, is a leader who does not seek to lead.

If we must have government, then let it be the right kind of government, not the tossers we have now.



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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 4:20:08 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

A government of the people, and by the people is necessary. A government seperate and unanswerable to the people is a what we currently have.



Indeed it is.

Until the creation of money is for the equal benefit of all people, a return to a government that is by, for, and of the people will be next to impossible.

The concentration of wealth is too great... hence the invisible government, the true powers-that-be that pulls the strings and push the buttons.

The lefties and righties can talk and argue themselves to death, and it won't make any real difference. Just more band-aids on symptoms of larger problems is all we'll see.


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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 4:26:09 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Sorry but you are talking about an effect being a cause. If the laws were maintain along the lines of how the constitution is written, then large corps and the extremely wealthy would not have as great an advantage in politics. The only way to effectily adminster your idea is for the government (people) to seize all wealth, and disburse it equally. We are all born with our lot in life, and it is up to our ability and merit on whether we improve it.

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 4:36:46 PM   
Underumam


Posts: 485
Joined: 12/18/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Sorry but you are talking about an effect being a cause. If the laws were maintain along the lines of how the constitution is written, then large corps and the extremely wealthy would not have as great an advantage in politics. The only way to effectily adminster your idea is for the government (people) to seize all wealth, and disburse it equally. We are all born with our lot in life, and it is up to our ability and merit on whether we improve it.


There's just entirely too much government these days. The laws they relentlessly pass are unconstitutional and turning the average citizen into criminals.  Seizing all wealth is already being done BY THEM. 

BTW- teach your kids(especially your daughters) to speak Chinese. Things will go much easier on them when their new masters arrive to claim THIER property.

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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 5:06:18 PM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: couldbemage

We, as humans, are simply stuck with government.



As long as there is no adhesion of humanity; I agree.

What would it take for the judging to stop?

Kim


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Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 5:46:16 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam
There's just entirely too much government these days.


I agree that there is too much government in some areas, while other areas are neglected.

quote:


The laws they relentlessly pass are unconstitutional and turning the average citizen into criminals.  Seizing all wealth is already being done BY THEM. 


Actually not, though the amount they are taking is excessive. As long as the people get distracted by the political theatr BS, and ignore things like "corps can make money, invest it out of the country, keep it out of the country, and not pay taxes, or very little on it" then we get what we deserve. The wealth is there, it is just that it is in the hands of entities and not individuals.

quote:


BTW- teach your kids(especially your daughters) to speak Chinese. Things will go much easier on them when their new masters arrive to claim THIER property.



This is over the top, ludicrous and incorrect. Before outside countries could start claiming private citizens property the government would be forced to default on those loans. Yeah it would cause a huge crash, the dollar wouldn't be worth as much as a peso, but no foreign country is going to seize private property. Doing so would also result in violence, so it would not happen on either side. If you stop with the over the top comments like this, you may actually get people to understand the actual message you are putting out.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Underumam)
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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 5:53:17 PM   
Underumam


Posts: 485
Joined: 12/18/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam
There's just entirely too much government these days.


I agree that there is too much government in some areas, while other areas are neglected.

quote:


The laws they relentlessly pass are unconstitutional and turning the average citizen into criminals.  Seizing all wealth is already being done BY THEM. 


Actually not, though the amount they are taking is excessive. As long as the people get distracted by the political theatr BS, and ignore things like "corps can make money, invest it out of the country, keep it out of the country, and not pay taxes, or very little on it" then we get what we deserve. The wealth is there, it is just that it is in the hands of entities and not individuals.

quote:


BTW- teach your kids(especially your daughters) to speak Chinese. Things will go much easier on them when their new masters arrive to claim THIER property.



This is over the top, ludicrous and incorrect. Before outside countries could start claiming private citizens property the government would be forced to default on those loans. Yeah it would cause a huge crash, the dollar wouldn't be worth as much as a peso, but no foreign country is going to seize private property. Doing so would also result in violence, so it would not happen on either side. If you stop with the over the top comments like this, you may actually get people to understand the actual message you are putting out.


lol.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Government must exist - 12/3/2009 5:53:22 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Sorry but you are talking about an effect being a cause. If the laws were maintain along the lines of how the constitution is written, then large corps and the extremely wealthy would not have as great an advantage in politics. The only way to effectily adminster your idea is for the government (people) to seize all wealth, and disburse it equally. We are all born with our lot in life, and it is up to our ability and merit on whether we improve it.


False.

The immoral (some argue unconstitutional) concentration of wealth due to money creation being in the hands of the elite is the cause of the many problematic symptoms we see today.

In my opinion, it is up to our ability and merit to replace the existing system with an equitable and moral system that equally benefits all.

Many complain, but few are willing to think, let alone step out of the box.


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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