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Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 6:38:04 AM

Musicmystery

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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/11/us/politics/11blackwater.html?_r=1&hp

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 6:43:15 AM

mnottertail

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my comments might surprise some, others not so much......

It pisses me the fuck off that the US government military and para-military organisations use these fucking civilian contractors, in country or hired from the states, for anygoddamthing......half the incountry contractors are spies anyways.

Three may keep a secret if two of them are dead................

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/11/2009 6:44:05 AM >

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 7:40:27 AM

slvemike4u

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The big question is why was all this necessary...by anyones definition the U.S. pays a shitload of money for their defence dept...and their intelligence gathering dept's...why was outsourcing needed at all?
The only logical answer I can come up with(if someone else has a better answer I would be happy to hear it)is to facillitate the transfer of discretionary monies to the hands of private contractors.
There would appear to be no other logical answer.Privatizing war made more than one private citizen rich.....aren't there laws against such things?

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 7:52:33 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

It pisses me the fuck off that the US government military and para-military organizations use these fucking civilian contractors, in country or hired from the states, for anygoddamthing......half the incountry contractors are spies anyways.

Now see, I'm good with this, regardless of the administration or party in charge. Privatizing the military is cost effective. Put the target and the goal out to bid and you insure a couple of things; fixed cost and everyone involved, 'generals' to 'foot soldiers' knows exactly what they are getting into and makes a personal risk/reward decision about their compensation. No longer would a teenager have the decision of volunteering for the military in hopes of paying for their college education and end up dying in Afghanistan under some unilaterally installed rules better applied to a RPG version of war instead of what the soldiers have to do in real life.

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 7:57:39 AM

slvemike4u

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And the whole part about mercenaries's carring out Nationalistic goals...in our name...lack of oversight....killing civilians at a traffic stop.....lack of mission discipline....just to name a few problems,off the top of my head.....You're good with all that Merc?

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 8:37:02 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
And the whole part about mercenaries's carring out Nationalistic goals...in our name..lack of oversight....killing civilians at a traffic stop.....lack of mission discipline....just to name a few problems,off the top of my head.....You're good with all that Merc?

You 're showing off your naiveté to think that isn't happening now.

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 9:21:28 AM

Musicmystery

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Yeah, despite the Libertarian vision of private police, army, etc., people work for the ones that write the checks, and as far as they can, for themselves.

A military operation needs to be run by the military and accountable to the military. If it costs more, then it does.

Hell, why not just call a warlord on his cell. "Hey, can you guys go over and kick these guys' asses? Thanks man!"

We'd save lots! Not as good an idea as arming Osama bin Laden to fight the Soviets for us, but it'll do for now.

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 9:24:12 AM

mnottertail

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civilian contractors are not cheaper.

You get a clown from dismal seepage, Iowa, pay him $1200 a month, feed him, house him, clothe him....(all of which you do for civilian contractors, one way or another) and here is the difference.........

Military.....you cakk him it is $255 for a headstone, and a free flag.

Civilian contractor..........that's a couple more bucks (think about it)

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 9:31:14 AM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
And the whole part about mercenaries's carring out Nationalistic goals...in our name..lack of oversight....killing civilians at a traffic stop.....lack of mission discipline....just to name a few problems,off the top of my head.....You're good with all that Merc?

You 're showing off your naiveté to think that isn't happening now.

Putting aside for the moment whether or not it is happening now( and the little matter of responsibility,chain of command and all that) Where do you think these mercs are coming from.....the military pipeline! How does the military retain the best and the brightest when all they need do is take off the uniform,shedding those pesky ROE's along the way,and join the private sector.
How long do you think it would be for a country that continued this practice to wind up with a second class military.....but a first class private security firm available to the highesrt bidder.
Privatizing war will go down as one of Bush's biggest blunders....with the evil Mr Cheney enriching himself and friends as a collateral benifit.

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 9:42:28 AM

Musicmystery

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AND, at least potentially, endangering national security.

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 9:43:45 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Military.....you cakk him it is $255 for a headstone, and a free flag.

Civilian contractor..........that's a couple more bucks (think about it

Contractor - it's not your responsibility - fixed pricing for the job. Death costs, individual and the headstone, are not extra. At least the dying signed up and knew what they were subjecting themselves.

The 'big wars', WW-III and the like, can use the existing military people and armaments. The borders need protecting and that mission could use those trained as military police on an ongoing basis. Let the jobs that belong to police officers, and 'hearts & mind' converters, be done by people trained for those specific jobs.

Look at it this way - if the prior administration put out to bid the 'Kill Saddam' job and it came it at $1 Billion; not only would it have been cost saving, but all the ongoing angst would have been eliminated.

quote:

Hell, why not just call a warlord on his cell. "Hey, can you guys go over and kick these guys' asses? Thanks man!"

Another GREAT idea - or at least better than the path we're pursuing.

The idea doesn't eliminate the US Military nor their importance. They remain as the ultimate power on the planet. However the 'wars' being waged now don't use them, or their training, effectively. The personnel are trained to kill the enemy and win any battle in which they've become engaged. I don't see that as the job they are doing currently in any theater they are employed.

In that case, why spend that resource when the same goal can be accomplished in the private sector?

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 9:51:21 AM

slutslave4u

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Some here act as if this is something new here? Tell me do you honestly believe it has not been in fact happening all through out history? By any or all countries?

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 9:52:49 AM

mnottertail

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Oh, that it were not true that contractors are not our responsibility...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=116x6292

But ya, hired assassinations happen all the time. my bitch is mixing military and contractors. Of course we got several million reward for binLauden dead or alive, and aint nobody shipping us any bones even on a goof.

Ron

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 10:01:06 AM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slutslave4u

Some here act as if this is something new here? Tell me do you honestly believe it has not been in fact happening all through out history? By any or all countries?

So its your contention that throughout our history we have been using mercenaries all along?
Please enlighten us as to where and when?

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 10:03:37 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Oh, that it were not true that contractors are not our responsibility...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=116x6292
Ron

From your source: could cost the federal government millions of dollars for hundreds of workers' compensation claims.

Key word there Ron, "could". Would someone put in a claim? Sure! Would the insurance company fight it based upon the expectation at being killed in a job where people shooting at you is part of the disclaimer when you sign up for it? Also a big positive.

As a matter of policy, the US could further distance themselves from that type of liability through privately place insurance. Or, better yet, to further insulate themselves, they could put in place a liability condition on the contractor.

However, using the 'worst case' as this blog source documents, it is still much less than one day's worth of deployment in Iraq or Afghanistan, and it doesn't involve kids just trying to pay for their college education.

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 10:11:59 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Look at it this way - if the prior administration put out to bid the 'Kill Saddam' job and it came it at $1 Billion; not only would it have been cost saving, but all the ongoing angst would have been eliminated.

A bit shallow in the analysis, merc, unless you are willing to let the chips fall as they pleased to fill the vacuum.

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 10:14:18 AM

mnottertail

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well,

Lafayette, Fredrick William, Baron de Woedtke, Gustave Rosenthal, Friedrich Wilhelm von Stueben, the Hmong, Al-queda, against Russia in the Russian Afghan conflict as well, we are hiring sunnis in Iraq, against Castro................

and the stuff now.

Ron (sad but true).

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 10:17:50 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Privatizing war will go down as one of Bush's biggest blunders....

Continuing, and escalating, under the current administration: The Obama administration is using mercenaries with the firm formerly known as Blackwater to kidnap and assassinate high value targets in Pakistan, according to a published report. The program, operated out of the US Joint Special Operations Command, "is so 'compartmentalized' that senior figures within the Obama administration and the US military chain of command may not be aware of its existence," an unnamed source with direct knowledge of the program told The Nation reporter Jeremy Scahill.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Look at it this way - if the prior administration put out to bid the 'Kill Saddam' job and it came it at $1 Billion; not only would it have been cost saving, but all the ongoing angst would have been eliminated.

A bit shallow in the analysis, merc, unless you are willing to let the chips fall as they pleased to fill the vacuum.

You'll have to document to what you are referencing by your 'shallow' comment in order for me to respond.

As a macro - whatever 'vacuum' or where the chips fall; can be addressed with another job going out to bid. The point would be to not deploy a few hundred thousand troops, incurring both the fiscal and political cost, when a group of 10 or 20 well trained and motivated individuals could accomplish the same thing.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 12/11/2009 10:22:38 AM >

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 10:18:11 AM

AnimusRex

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I don't think it is cheaper, first off; but that is only a secondary issue.
One of the most important thing we do in a democracy is keep civilian control of the military. Contracting out the job of going to war does three harmful things-
One, it severs the chain of accountability- everything the contractor does is shrouded in secrecy; the contractors are not held to the military code of conduct, and not accountable to the laws of the host nation.
For instance, in Bosnia, there were very credible accounts of DynCorp contractors keeping a borthel of child prostitutes, really ugly stuff, yet none were ever investigated or prosecuted; they existed in a law-free zone where they acted with impunity.

Second, there is a serious problem with perverse disincentives; the contractor has a perverse incentive to make the war a stalemate, not to achieve victory. In addition, if they fight for money, who is to prevent them from being paid a dollar more to subvert the goals of the government? Iran and India, for instance, would love for us to end up with forces fighting in Afghanistan for a century, bogged down in a stalemate that weakens American and India's arch-rival, Pakistan.

Third, there is the problem with the separation of the cost of war from the citizens who benefit from it.
What isn't being discussed a lot, if that only a minority of the military contractors in Iraq/ Afghanistan are American citizens; most are foreign nationals, from poor contries making good money fighting our wars.
This has always been an Achilles heel of mercenary forces- Ancient Rome used foreign fighters and had the same problem. This separated the making of war from its price tag. Citizens are not being asked to pay a price for going to war, so going to war becomes a tempting way to solve all problems- it makes diplomacy, coalition building, and forging alliances the second strategy, not the first. This becomes a long term losing proposition, since endless warmaking ends up bankrupting the nation that does it.

War is the one part of government we really don't need or even want to be cost-effective; we want it to accomplish very limited goals, regardless of the cost.

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RE: Blackwater Guards Tied to Secret Raids by the C.I.A. - 12/11/2009 10:26:18 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Contracting out the job of going to war does three harmful things...

Were we "going to war" I'd agree with all your assertions. Where are we at 'war'?

We are at 'peace keeping' and 'government transition' in Iraq.

We are at 'converting hearts & minds' in Afghanistan.

Where are those jobs referenced in the mission statement for any branch of the military?

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