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The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to ... - 12/12/2009 10:16:37 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Text and video of President Obama's Nobel Prize lecture


I was a bit surprised by the speech.  He sounded almost adventuristic at a point at or two.  It also struck me that this was one of those 'only Nixon could go to China,' moments.  Who but Obama could have spoken in defense of war in that hall?



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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 10:22:32 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Text and video of President Obama's Nobel Prize lecture


I was a bit surprised by the speech.  He sounded almost adventuristic at a point at or two.  It also struck me that this was one of those 'only Nixon could go to China,' moments.  Who but Obama could have spoken in defense of war in that hall?




It was a surprisingly level speech for him. Except for an occasional lapse into the blame Bush game his handlers finally realized that blaming America doesnt win him any votes.

He did miss widely with this though, which is directly contradictory to his other statements:

"yet this truth must coexist with another -- that no matter how justified, war promises human tragedy."

Wrong...appeasement and refusal to fight justified wars are what promises human tragedy.

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 10:23:43 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		well, what is the promise of unjustified imperialism?

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 10:43:01 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

"yet this truth must coexist with another -- that no matter how justified, war promises human tragedy."

Wrong...appeasement and refusal to fight justified wars are what promises human tragedy.


So glad to know war has no ill effects.

Now I've been set straight.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 12/12/2009 10:47:11 AM >

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 10:59:52 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Well quite. It isn't like anybody suffered as a result of Hitler invading most of mainland Europe west of Russia, is it?

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 11:05:30 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

"yet this truth must coexist with another -- that no matter how justified, war promises human tragedy."

Wrong...appeasement and refusal to fight justified wars are what promises human tragedy.


So glad to know war has no ill effects.

Now I've been set straight.


Come on MM,you missed his point entirely....if war is justified all its horrors are justified...ipso facto no human tragedy!
(unless of course you happen to be one of those "human tragedies" in which case it is best to hold onto the beleif that the ends justify the means....even if you and yours won't be around to see the end that has been justified....damm trying to decipher willbeur is hard work....I'm a little dizzy right now)

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 11:07:03 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		'War is an ugly thing. but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war is far worse.'

J.S. Mill.


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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 11:09:39 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		I think what was trying to be expressed is that the human tragedy of war at least has an ending, while the human tragedy of unfettered tyranny just festers forever.

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 11:16:34 AM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		An admirable thought Rich...and yet no matter the justification,and despite willbeurs denial of such....all wars lead to human tragedies...it is the nature of war....justified or not!

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 11:17:36 AM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

I think what was trying to be expressed is that the human tragedy of war at least has an ending, while the human tragedy of unfettered tyranny just festers forever.
ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


Please cite a tyranny that has lasted forever.

I really don't see the argument here. It sounds like a case of "Being shot is a bad thing" "No, no...being stabbed is a bad thing." No one ever said appeasement of tyranny is a good thing. That does not make war a desirable or positive thing in any way. Acknowledging the cost of the option of armed conflict is just stating the truth.


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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 11:22:12 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		Nothing has ever lasted forever this is the nature of forever.

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 11:24:21 AM   
tsatske


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Status: offline 		I am a Quaker, so a bit of a peacenik, to say the least.
however, there are worse things than war.
I am of the 'if you want peace, work for justice' clan.
Oppression is worse than war.
Hunger is worse than war.
basicly, anthing that makes people, individual citizens, (as opposed to goverments and principlaities) willing to rise up and war against, is probably worse than war.
Those things that individuals willing fight, and risk their lives, to change, as opposed of going only under order from their goverment, or out of Patritism.

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 11:30:46 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		Yes to fight in a war and possibly die is the ultimate in selflessness as the thing you are fighting for you may never experience yourself but instead do for future generations. Having said that I hope modern fighters know exactly what they are fighting for and haven’t been manipulated into fighting for a goal that doesn’t exist in reality or can’t be achieved through such fighting. Add this to the modern fact that we have a professional fighting force whose only aim in life is to fight somewhere or other and you realise historic comparisons don’t really fit well.

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 11:35:02 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I think what was trying to be expressed is that the human tragedy of war at least has an ending, while the human tragedy of unfettered tyranny just festers forever.

By most accounts, The Iraqis much preferred tyranny under Hussein yo their current situation.

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 11:35:22 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

I think what was trying to be expressed is that the human tragedy of war at least has an ending, while the human tragedy of unfettered tyranny just festers forever.
ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


Please cite a tyranny that has lasted forever.

I really don't see the argument here. It sounds like a case of "Being shot is a bad thing" "No, no...being stabbed is a bad thing." No one ever said appeasement of tyranny is a good thing. That does not make war a desirable or positive thing in any way. Acknowledging the cost of the option of armed conflict is just stating the truth.





I'll tell you what, Spinner.  If you ever decide to respond to what I have said, instead of just fishing for something you feel competent to snark at, do let me know.

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 12:35:16 PM   
mastrcmmdr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

"yet this truth must coexist with another -- that no matter how justified, war promises human tragedy."

Wrong...appeasement and refusal to fight justified wars are what promises human tragedy.


So glad to know war has no ill effects.

Now I've been set straight.




Of course if you actually thought about an issue any deeper than how to make snarky reply you might actually ken what I said, which was not that it "has no ill effects".

To save you the calories of actually having to think and using Obama's own speech:

What would be a human tragedy, WWII or letting Hilter continue? (And you will probably argue that they would both be tragedies. I disagree. When an action is forced in order to prevent a tragedy, any negative consequences resulting from that action are not tragic, they are heroic.

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 1:12:27 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mastrcmmdr

using Obama's own speech:

When an action is forced in order to prevent a tragedy, any negative consequences resulting from that action are not tragic, they are heroic.

It is simply not true that heroism and tragedy are mutually exclusive.

K.

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 2:50:12 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

I'll tell you what, Spinner. If you ever decide to respond to what I have said, instead of just fishing for something you feel competent to snark at, do let me know.
ORIGINAL: TheHeretic



And when you can take a post that says there is a basic agreement between viewpoints and consider it snarking, you let me know, ok?


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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 2:50:16 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mastrcmmdr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

"yet this truth must coexist with another -- that no matter how justified, war promises human tragedy."

Wrong...appeasement and refusal to fight justified wars are what promises human tragedy.


So glad to know war has no ill effects.

Now I've been set straight.




Of course if you actually thought about an issue any deeper than how to make snarky reply you might actually ken what I said, which was not that it "has no ill effects".

To save you the calories of actually having to think and using Obama's own speech:

What would be a human tragedy, WWII or letting Hilter continue? (And you will probably argue that they would both be tragedies. I disagree. When an action is forced in order to prevent a tragedy, any negative consequences resulting from that action are not tragic, they are heroic.


I was replying to wilbeur. Who the fuck are you? Or is this another case of a schizophrenic poster?

And my reply was more to the point of the idiotic either/or thinking that spawned the comment, the kind of bullshit that downplays or even ridiculing and criticizing the wisdom of dialogue, with or without accompanying or eventual warfare. If you want to lambast people about thinking, then think your posts through before you post them, and you'll get thoughtful replies.

Chest pounding patriotic rhetoric is great for printing flyers. Real life is far more complicated than that.

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RE: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough... - 12/12/2009 2:53:01 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It is simply not true that heroism and tragedy are mutually exclusive.

K.[/font][/size]


Agreed--or the concept of the Tragic Hero wouldn't exist, from the Iliad to today.

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