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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 10:03:11 AM

cpK69

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 10:14:24 AM

cpK69

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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

A phrase that has nothing to do with the Constitution, though.

Agreed.

And just as little to do with my original point that one's actions should match thier words.

If his do, great; I just couldn't decern that from the title of his 'non-church' church.

Kim

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 10:22:56 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

my original point that one's actions should match thier words

And the distortion comes full circle.

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 10:26:33 AM

Silence8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

Not to be so bold as to address the original point of the OP.......

I'm not sure where it is exactly in the Law, but people are allowed to attest rather than swear. People might joke around about a "certain" ethnic President taking his oath on the Koran, or who knows. It is not required to be our book, if it is indeed our book in the first place. In fact is the book even required ? What of an Atheist's book ? What might that be ? A physics book by Nelkon and Parker ?

Fucking religion, I wish they had never invented it. It only serves as a distraction, and if we ain't got proof right here, we need to see an eye doctor.

This guy might be an asshole worthy of recall, but this is not the grounds, not in my country.

T

Maybe atheists could swear in on something written by Richard Dawkins... Karl Marx... J. K. Rawlings!

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 10:28:49 AM

Musicmystery

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Or how about the Constitution?

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 10:34:31 AM

Silence8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
This is nonsense. The bulk of the faithful have doubts and uncertainties from time to time.

I thought atheist don't believe at all... not sometimes... not just a little bit...

I think there's a word... yes, I'm not sure, I don't seem to use it very often... well, let's check the dictionary... maybe there's a better word, and, if someone can help me out, I would appreciate it, but I'm leaning... toward...

Disingenuous. Yes. This comment is disingenuous.

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 10:39:54 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
This is nonsense. The bulk of the faithful have doubts and uncertainties from time to time.

I thought atheist don't believe at all in God... not sometimes... not just a little bit...

I think there's a word... yes, I'm not sure, I don't seem to use it very often... well, let's check the dictionary... maybe there's a better word, and, if someone can help me out, I would appreciate it, but I'm leaning... toward...

Disingenuous. Yes. This comment is disingenuous.

Let's go with incomplete. I thought the topic of the thread was enough to make the connection; my bad.

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 10:42:50 AM

Silence8

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No, that's not my point at all.

Obviously, both theists and atheists can have doubts in all kinds of directions. How could you think otherwise?

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 10:44:21 AM

Silence8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Or how about the Constitution?

It's interesting... isn't the whole notion of 'swearing in' originally imbued with religious meaning, like 'swear' words, or, rather, 'curse' words?

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 11:36:57 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

No, that's not my point at all.

Obviously, both theists and atheists can have doubts in all kinds of directions. How could you think otherwise?

I thought Atheism was a yes or no question. And "well, maybe" is somewhere in between.

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 12/14/2009 11:38:10 AM >

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 11:44:54 AM

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I would love to see this go all the way to the Supreme Court because Anthony Scalia and Roberts and Thomas and the other right-wing Supreme Court justices would have no choice but to declare that law unconstitutional. I would love to see Scalia in the news that he decided a person does not have to believe in God to serve; it would be the ultimate irony for me to see that religious freak compelled to admit you don't have to believe in God to serve in public office. And if he doesn't admit it then he needs to be impeached from the Supreme Court because he believes God's 'laws' override the United States Constitution.

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 11:56:16 AM

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Can I ask why atheism is a yes or no answer, when so much in life is a "maybe"?. Do you expect atheists to just hold one view and exclude any other possibilities, likelihoods or chances to ponder beyond any or all faiths?
There are numerous numbers of views on the religions of christianity, as many into judaism and islam, as well as a few deep philosophys.

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 11:59:50 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Can I ask why atheism is a yes or no answer, when so much in life is a "maybe"?. Do you expect atheists to just hold one view and exclude any other possibilities, likelihoods or chances to ponder beyond any or all faiths?
There are numerous numbers of views on the religions of christianity, as many into judaism and islam, as well as a few deep philosophys.

It's mostly because (despite the claims that are made about it being a religion based on blind faith) atheism is an answer to one of life's questions in particular, and makes little or no attempt to address any of the others.

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 12:17:38 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Can I ask why atheism is a yes or no answer, when so much in life is a "maybe"?

Am I wrong in thinking a fair definition of Atheist is; “someone who does not believe in God or deities”? (Encarta Dictionary; Microsoft Word)

If so, what option is there besides yes, or no, to the question, “Are you an Atheist?"

Kim

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 2:03:05 PM

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

My implication is that separation of church and state was, and remains, a damn good idea.

This could prove to be an interesting case. A religion is a set of beliefs about some ultimate reality that underlies or overshadows the Universe as we know it. Merely believing that there is a God, absent any formulated set of beliefs about his nature or his will, does not a religion make. So, the establishment clause could be found not to apply. If the case is determined to have nothing to do with religion per se, the local law could be viewed as no more or less ridiculous than requiring that one's hair be parted on the left side of the head in order to serve. Where's that leave us? A civil rights issue?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/14/2009 2:25:22 PM >

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 3:05:08 PM

Musicmystery

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Oh good Lord.

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 5:58:28 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

My implication is that separation of church and state was, and remains, a damn good idea.

This could prove to be an interesting case. A religion is a set of beliefs about some ultimate reality that underlies or overshadows the Universe as we know it. Merely believing that there is a God, absent any formulated set of beliefs about his nature or his will, does not a religion make. So, the establishment clause could be found not to apply. If the case is determined to have nothing to do with religion per se, the local law could be viewed as no more or less ridiculous than requiring that one's hair be parted on the left side of the head in order to serve. Where's that leave us? A civil rights issue?

K.

Article VI U.S. Constitution

Article Six also states "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Doubt if this is a First Amendment issue.

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 6:12:30 PM

Kirata

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

Article Six also states "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

If a "religious test" intends requiring that a person subscribe to a particular religion, or even any religion, that doesn't get us anywhere. The law in question does not require that someone subscribe to a particular religion, or even any religion, in order to serve.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/14/2009 6:35:29 PM >

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 6:15:33 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Article Six also states "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

If a "religious test" intends requiring that the person subscribe to a particular religion, that doesn't get us anywhere. The law in question does not require that someone subscribe to a particular religion in order to serve.

K.

You may have gotten ahold of a very interesting point here. I think you're right. It would be very interesting to see someone play this one out in the courts.

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 7:08:53 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

You may have gotten ahold of a very interesting point here. I think you're right. It would be very interesting to see someone play this one out in the courts.

I guess we'll see, but note the edit I made after you quoted me, to wit: "or even any religion." I felt it was necessary to add that because the clause is interpreted more generally, as follows (my italics):

The First Amendment's Establishment Clause prohibits the government from making any law “respecting an establishment of religion.” This clause not only forbids the government from establishing an official religion, but also prohibits government actions that unduly favor one religion over another. It also prohibits the government from unduly preferring religion over non-religion, or non-religion over religion. ~Cornell University Law School.

The law in question only requires that someone believe in God in order to serve, not that he engage in any form of observance or make any further stipulations in the matter whatsoever. And therein lies the rub, as far as "religion" is concerned.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/14/2009 7:28:26 PM >

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