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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 8:27:20 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


I guess we'll see, but note the edit I made after you quoted me, to wit: "or even any religion." I felt it was necessary to add that because the clause is interpreted more generally, as follows (my italics):

The First Amendment's Establishment Clause prohibits the government from making any law “respecting an establishment of religion.” This clause not only forbids the government from establishing an official religion, but also prohibits government actions that unduly favor one religion over another. It also prohibits the government from unduly preferring religion over non-religion, or non-religion over religion. ~Cornell University Law School.

The law in question only requires that someone believe in God in order to serve, not that he engage in any form of observance or make any further stipulations in the matter whatsoever. And therein lies the rub, as far as "religion" is concerned.
K.



As I understand it you are making a hairline distinction between "belief in God" and "belief in religion." And therefore the North Carolina Law may escape a challenge by the Establishment Clause. I hope I have your point right.

In Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961) the Court seems to have settled the matter under the Establishment Clause and not Article 6, saying it need not consider the latter. Justice Black's ruling includes "belief in god" as a non-starter.

"Writing for the Court, Justice Hugo Black recalled Everson v. Board of Education, and explicitly linked Torcaso v. Watkins to its conclusions:

There is, and can be, no dispute about the purpose or effect of the Maryland Declaration of Rights requirement before us - it sets up a religious test which was designed to and, if valid, does bar every person who refuses to declare a belief in God from holding a public "office of profit or trust" in Maryland. ... We repeat and again reaffirm that neither a State nor the Federal Government can constitutionally force a person "to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion." Neither can constitutionally pass laws or impose requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers, and neither can aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs."

It appears doesn't it that non-believers are held safe?

Black went on to explain why Article 6 was not needed:

"Appellant also claimed that the State's test oath requirement violates the provision of Art. VI of the Federal Constitution that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." Because we are reversing the judgment on other grounds, we find it unnecessary to consider appellant's contention that this provision applies to state as well as federal offices."

Wiki source here.

"Torcaso, an atheist, refused to make such a statement, and his appointment was consequently revoked. Torcaso, believing his constitutional rights to freedom of religious expression had been infringed, filed suit in a Maryland Circuit Court, only to be rebuffed; the Circuit Court rejected his claim, and the Maryland Court of Appeals held that the requirement for a declaration of belief in God as a qualification for office was self-executing."



Vincent



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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 9:48:38 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

As I understand it you are making a hairline distinction between "belief in God" and "belief in religion."

I think there is a profound difference, not a hairline, between a belief in God and believing in a set of pronouncements and doctrines that claim to embody authoritative knowledge of his nature and will. I do not think that a belief in God should be required to hold public office, but I don't see how that equates to believing in a religion.

The decision you cite rules against a statute that would bar anyone who refuses to declare a belief in God from holding public office on the basis that, "neither a State nor the Federal Government can constitutionally force a person to profess," belief in a religion. Parenthetically, I see no force being applied to compel belief in either case. But more to the point, to apply a statute regarding belief (or disbelief) in a religion to a case that does not involve belief (or disbelief) in a religion appears to me a misapplication of the law as written.

But not its spirit, eh? What the Justice appears to have done here is to interpret the law in a way that establishes a legal equivalence between a belief in God and believing in a religion which serves the intention of the Constitution. I did not know that such a precedent existed, but I am not unhappy to see it applied in this context.

Thank you.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/14/2009 10:06:45 PM >

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/14/2009 9:58:05 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Agreed Mm. It is a mistake on so many levels, but not one with dire consequences. It is but a piece of paper really. Even religiously, it is not Mammon, only the symbol thereof.

Many do not realize that many of the founding Fathers wanted to exclude those of certain races, ethnicies, religions, however you want to cut it. Basically Semites for one, but they were not alone. But then they thought that was doing one of the things they didn't like about the old country. They declined to do it because it ran contrary to their morality, no matter how much they might have wanted to.......

Those are leaders, the kind of Men we need now. I have my opinions but I have no right to impose them upon you, even if I am President. That is correct, in Law, I mean real Law, you owe nothing. You don't have to get out of his way walking down the street, or light his cigarette, or anything at all. Tell me where it says you do.

There may be some Jews in our government and even some Moslems. If there is something wrong with that I seriously have to look into a GPS. OK so now we have a half Black President, big deal. But now think, what if our new President was a Shintoist, Buddist, or who knows, maybe even Atheist ? Hadn't crossed you mind huh ? Born here, thirty five years old or over, that is basically what the Law says.

Or how about if we are to be a war based economy, a Satanist or a Charlie Mansonist ? Give him a pardon and put him in the cabinet (speculate on that pun all you want). I mean really, if we are going to spill blood, get someone who can do the jiob right. Four quick years, get rid of him and then our enemies are mostly vaporized or something. Get it over with dammit.

Given what has been going on the last couple of decades, I think it's worth a shot.

T

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 6:51:44 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I think any lawsuit such as this will be laughed out of court. Yes there are many archaic laws on the books of many states but none would have standing under today’s interpretation of our Constitution...and they shouldn't.

Have you noticed that the years before Carl Rove were not filled with religious fanatics? You would hear none of this in the Eisenhower to Clinton eras.

It just shows what a few unscrupulous men and mass media can do to dirty and tarnish a great Institution of religion.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/15/2009 7:10:51 AM >

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 7:37:22 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata



But not its spirit, eh? What the Justice appears to have done here is to interpret the law in a way that establishes a legal equivalence between a belief in God and believing in a religion which serves the intention of the Constitution. I did not know that such a precedent existed, but I am not unhappy to see it applied in this context.

Thank you.

K.



I did not know of the precedent either until this thread arose. I am happy to see it as well. We are always at risk to guess what will happen in Law, but I think there is a probability the North Carolina Law would not meet the test.

Vincent

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 7:51:23 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Can I ask why atheism is a yes or no answer, when so much in life is a "maybe"?


Am I wrong in thinking a fair definition of Atheist is; “someone who does not believe in God or deities”? (Encarta Dictionary; Microsoft Word)

If so, what option is there besides yes, or no, to the question, “Are you an Atheist?"

Kim


You're being disingenuous again. I refuse to believe that your logic circuits are so fried you cannot process the idea of degrees of belief. You know, like when someone says "I strongly believe" or "I seem to believe" or "I believe, but obviously I'm not entirely sure", etc. etc. etc.

Ugh. Being a theist and having an intellectual conscience are not mutually exclusive, you know.

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 8:50:14 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Can I ask why atheism is a yes or no answer, when so much in life is a "maybe"?


Am I wrong in thinking a fair definition of Atheist is; “someone who does not believe in God or deities”? (Encarta Dictionary; Microsoft Word)

If so, what option is there besides yes, or no, to the question, “Are you an Atheist?"

Kim


You're being disingenuous again. I refuse to believe that your logic circuits are so fried you cannot process the idea of degrees of belief. You know, like when someone says "I strongly believe" or "I seem to believe" or "I believe, but obviously I'm not entirely sure", etc. etc. etc.

Ugh. Being a theist and having an intellectual conscience are not mutually exclusive, you know.


I agree there is a spectrum of militancy and understanding from affirmative atheism to agnostic atheism (we are limited by our understanding of the natural world, so I have to reserve judgment) to agnostic theism (He works in wondrous ways but I have faith...) to affirmative theism.

From my reading I would suggest the Encarta definition is a bit of a powder-puff definition.

While I do not speak for the group, imo the affirmative atheist would deny the existence of evidence for any gods, for the existence of any supernatural or spiritual world, for survival of ego after death, and for a soul (famously: there is no ghost in the machine).... I suppose I should add also no evidence for the existence for miracles (events that do not conform to the usual behavior of the natural world)

Furthermore, the evidence tells us (the affirmative atheist might say) that Life arose from inorganic chemical reactions which lead to the construction of organic molecules that could self- replicate in the shallow pools of water after the new earth had cooled for two billion years, and that evolution by natural selection is the pathway without design or designer from the first coated genetic material to primative cells without nuclei to complex cells with nuclei to multicellular organisms all in three billion years time.

Atheism is an affirmative belief based on observations and includes a number of corollaries. A bit more than a simple yes or no answer, I think. Hope that helps. That is my understanding. Not here to prosylitize or debate it. Welcome any questions or helpful clarifications.

Vincent




< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/15/2009 8:52:10 AM >

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 8:53:47 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


You know, like when someone says "I strongly believe" or "I seem to believe" or "I believe, but obviously I'm not entirely sure", etc. etc. etc.



Degrees of belief, yes, degrees of not believing in something; I’m having a hard time digesting.
 
Kim

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 9:07:44 AM   
kittinSol


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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 9:09:18 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		I obviously didnt make my point clear enough, there  are degrees of everything.
I believe there is something to the paranormal, I have no proof that would stand up in court, I have no proof that would wow my friends, I have no proof that would make a ghost hunter  fall over  in shock, but I have my beliefs.. do I believe in the paranormal? yes isnt the answer, no isnt the answer, maybe is.

Same as with god, do I believe? No but I was raised anglican for 15 years, I  do  have questions? doubts? yes.... I wish I hadnt been, so I could say I was an atheist, I class as agnostic, but I still have 15 years of church and god in my background to contend with.
I vacillate between I believe in god, but religion is a total farce and  believing in mother earth and the pagan/wiccan side ..just because you cant digest it, is not an issue for anyone but you..Broaden your mind to others ways and beliefs..... its a good thing, its quite the education.



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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 9:11:35 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Broaden your mind to others ways and beliefs..... its a good thing, its quite the education.



Some people are just scared to step out of their comfort zone.

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 9:23:53 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I wish I hadnt been, so I could say I was an atheist, I class as agnostic, but I still have 15 years of church and god in my background to contend with.


Who is your beef with, exactly?

Kim

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 9:38:43 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		My beef is with people who want cut and dried explanations for faith, belief and disbelief and personal feelings.
I wont start what my beef is with religions.I dont usually post on religious topics, because it like attracts all kind of strange people who can only accept one TWUE way.


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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 10:10:19 AM   
cpK69


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Status: offline 		Where did I knock anyone’s beliefs? Even better, yours, since I was asking about atheists, and NOT believing, and you, by your own admittance, do not call yourself an atheist.


If I asked you "Do you believe in Santa Claus" would you feel the same way?


Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 12/15/2009 11:02:37 AM >

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 10:50:27 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		Technically there is more evidence to support the onetime existence of the person Santa Clause is derived from. Obviously believing he fits down chimneys and supplies imitation goods such as PS3s and Xbox thingy’s to billions of homes is something else.

Remember if your PS3 was made by little elves it won’t fall under the Sony warranty!


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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 10:55:02 AM   
Musicmystery


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The Physics of Santa Claus

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 10:57:06 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Obviously believing he fits down chimneys and supplies imitation goods such as PS3s and Xbox thingy’s to billions of homes is something else.

Remember if your PS3 was made by little elves it won’t fall under the Sony warranty!



I was shooting for this version.

Kim

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 11:11:42 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

Where did I knock anyone’s beliefs? Even better, yours, since I was asking about atheists, and NOT believing, and you, by your own admittance, do not call yourself an atheist.


If I asked you "Do you believe in Santa Clause" would you feel the same way?


Kim

Where did I suggest that YOU are knocking anyones beliefs...
I dont call myself an atheist because at 15 I was a christian, at 30 I was an atheist, at 47 Im an agnostic, by 60 welll I will probably be  head of my own cult.
People change over their lives, their beliefs, their outlooks, their wisdom, their knowledge, by their experiences, so why not their faith? so while I can say I was an atheist, Ive changed, grown, mellowed?
MY view on santa is that while I like the idea of a jolly old man chimney diving every year complete with reindeer, I know its not factual, but whoever instill that kind of goodwill and "magic for people of all ages, (not the consumerism)  is not all bad.
Lucy


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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 11:33:12 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Furthermore, the evidence tells us... that Life arose from inorganic chemical reactions

Purely as an intellectual matter, "something from nothing" has never appealed to me as a strong argument. I don't care how many pieces of inanimate matter you throw in a pile, or how you arrange them, if it's just a pile of inanimate matter it's not going to wake up and ask what's for lunch. Either quarks and atoms and molecules possess the quality of being alive in some sense, such that in increasingly complex organizations it becomes apparent in terms that we recognize, or else we've got an awful lot of inanimate matter wandering around walking and talking.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/15/2009 11:43:47 AM >

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RE: Can't serve if you don't believe in God? - 12/15/2009 11:51:51 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Where did I suggest that YOU are knocking anyones beliefs...



You were responding to me saying this:
 
quote:

Broaden your mind to others ways and beliefs..... its a good thing, its quite the education.


And then stated this:

quote:

I dont usually post on religious topics, because it like attracts all kind of strange people who can only accept one TWUE way.


I thought there was a connection, implying I would put down your beliefs by insisting mine were “twue”.


I never questioned anyone’s liberty to change their mind, nor did I deny the existence of varying beliefs, only whether or not there could be degrees of ‘not’. I thought it would be the same as saying “shades of darkness” or “degrees of cold”, and that those were not possible.

As for Santa; yeah, a little ‘magic’ is nice from time to time.

My best,

Kim


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