RE: Is it right for daughters

RE: Is it right for daughters (Full Version)

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Lockit -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/3/2010 1:47:48 PM)
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LafayetteLady -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/3/2010 2:05:34 PM)
What you are describing is a house that has servants. That really isn't what I get from the OP. Yes he was her slave and there to "serve," but it doesn't quite ring as the way one would chastise an employee. I use the term "employee" because even though I know your servants are not employees of the house but their duties and responsibilities in front of minors are more than likely very similar to such. Likewise when they are disciplined, I'm sure that it is not done in a berating, demeaning manner...in front of the minors. I've read far too many of your posts to believe that you would ever raise your children to believe that treating someone that way is correct.

SimplyIsaac -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/3/2010 2:57:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady While I vowed to not post anymore, I really only meant that I wouldn't post anymore to DommeMae idiocy. That's unfortunate. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Your idiocy is something completely new. Preposterous to think that those into extreme and edge play aren't doing it in front of the kids? Some advice: when you make an argument, don't speak as if you have the facts when you really don't. You made a claim that you can't possibly back up with proof. Who are YOU to speak for all those interested in or who practice bdsm? What facts do you have to support your claim that most do this or that? quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady So I guess you are saying that the opposite is true...that most ARE doing it in front of them. You are in fact essentially saying that, based on your reasoning that most children ARE in the know anyway, and since your insinuation of being tapped into the collective psyche of all those engaged in bdsm/sm so much that you can speak for them is.. how shall I say… remarkably naive, one is really only left with the conclusion that it's very possible most children know anyway. And I'd bet to one extent or another, they do. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady "Reasonable doubt?" Do you even know the meaning of that phrase? It's the level of certainty a juror must have to find a defendant guilty of a crime. Your contribution in this thread appears to be working under that idea. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Gross speculation? I guess you don't ever read a book or professional article or hell, even talk to any kids of divorced parents. My literary understanding, while I can assure you is up to par, is irrelevant and not needed in seeing your logical failure. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Honestly, I just can't be bothered with it anymore. In the words of Forrest Gump "Stupid is as stupid does." And you, Lafayette, are a shinning example.

Lockit -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/3/2010 2:59:41 PM)
(shakes head) That isn't what she said.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/3/2010 3:18:11 PM)
Nope, but hopefully the DommeMaes and Issacs of this world will either never have children or someone will step in and protect the children from the foolishness of the parents. There are people in this world (many on this site) who as I said are hell bent on showing their intelligence never realizing how absolutely ignorant they are or sound. I have never felt the need to take advice from those whose reasoning and statements show the only one who thinks they are reasonably intelligent are themselves. They are never able to answer for the flaws in their arguments and will instead continue to harp on nonsensical things or take statements out of context. Lockit, you and I could provide these fools with enough statistical data to fill a room. Even if they had the ability to read it and understand it, they would attempt to find a way to refute it because their only concern is getting their own point across. They perceive themselves as being enlightened and open minded, when in truth they are just too lazy or ignorant to really have a position. It is much easier to say "there isn't enough information" than to actually have an opinion and stand by it. Of course now, it will be "we are standing by our opinions" but they haven't formed any opinions other than to try to impress upon everyone that there aren't enough facts in evidence to truly make a decision. I always love it when people like that start throwing around legalese. Most of them are quite lucky they would never be at the opposing table in a courtroom from me. Many have been there and walked out with their tails between their legs.

Lockit -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/3/2010 3:38:04 PM)
I am sorry to say I agree with you LL. I am sorry that some just do not see what is going on in those court rooms... but worse... in some of those homes that bring people to court rooms. I cannot see fighting for some sense of fairness... when it comes to children... even if there is doubt... error on the side of caution. I mean, why even argue it wasn't that bad... how could you know shit? I mean, really! You are talking people's life love.... children! For gods sake, shut the fuck up! Touchy subject! And thank the powers that be... I parented as I did and taught my children to parent as I did in their own way... becasue none of our children will ever end up a statistic of such things. I'm a cuddly, sing song, dancin granny who will go sadistic if anyone were to expose those kids... anyone's kids to things that they shouldn't be around. It was my work... it was my life and I would go out fighting to assure that safety. No way would I ignore it as someone's right to fairness!

SimplyIsaac -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/4/2010 11:16:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady They are never able to answer for the flaws in their arguments and will instead continue to harp on nonsensical things or take statements out of context. Funny, what you described above seems a perfect profile of yourself from what I've seen. The ability to look oneself in the mirror is a virtue. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Lockit, you and I could provide these fools with enough statistical data to fill a room. Filling a room with statistical data isn't the point. Showing me evidence as to why and how you have elected yourself speaker for the entire bdsm world is. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Most of them are quite lucky they would never be at the opposing table in a courtroom from me. Many have been there and walked out with their tails between their legs. So you are a legend in your own mind. That's.. nice. It really has nothing to do with the conversation at hand, but if stating these things makes you feel better, by all means, continue.

SimplyIsaac -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/4/2010 11:21:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit I am sorry to say I agree with you LL. I am sorry that some just do not see what is going on in those court rooms... but worse... in some of those homes that bring people to court rooms. Who says we don't? Regardless, this has nothing to do with the fact most children do know what's going on in a home. quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit For gods sake, shut the fuck up! Touchy subject! No. I will not shut up because it's a touchy subject for you. What people say on a public message board is open to scrutiny and debate. Get over the fact that you can't browbeat people into not expressing their opinions because it's a "touchy" subject for you. quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit I'm a cuddly, sing song, dancin granny who will go sadistic if anyone were to expose those kids... anyone's kids to things that they shouldn't be around. And now we're back to what kids on average likely already know about their M/s parents, which may or may not qualify as "shouldn't be around" in your book. Who knows...we all have books of our own, thankfully.

DommeMae -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/6/2010 9:14:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub It could have been called something else. That's what I've said throughout this thread. We need more facts and less assumptions. quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Given that the children were taught that men are there to make their lives better, I doubt the scolding was subtle. That's a weak hypothesis from which to draw such a conclusion. quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub I didn't say they were exposed to sexual kink. I said that other kinksters tend to not enjoy being part of punishments or scoldings without their consent, so when it's rude to involve other kinksters I find it obvious that involving children by allowing them to hear it isn't exactly on the up and up either. There is more to power dynamics than kink, as you well know. Well and good, but you still don't know what sort of things they heard. Regardless, I believe there will be collateral damage in nearly any "kinkster" household that has kids, just as there is in a "vanilla" household where arguments take place. Plenty of people arque within earshot of kids. Does this mean they all grow up with major problems or as menaces to society? quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub I have a suspicion and if forced to bet, I know where I would put my money. But in all fairness, there isn't anything forcing you to make a bet. This is just a message board. [;)] quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub However, you don't know me as you are new to the boards. In time you might learn that when I say I wonder, I mean I wonder and when I have made up my mind, I say that very clearly. So am I to draw from this that you admit to the possibility of different scenarios regarding the OP, then?

AquaticSub -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/6/2010 9:38:47 PM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub It could have been called something else. That's what I've said throughout this thread. We need more facts and less assumptions. And again I feel that your personal requirements for facts before forming any sort of opinion are not best suited to a message board where you are extremely lucky to get both sides. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Given that the children were taught that men are there to make their lives better, I doubt the scolding was subtle. That's a weak hypothesis from which to draw such a conclusion. Again we disagree. Shocking. I'll refrain from insulting your position though. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub I didn't say they were exposed to sexual kink. I said that other kinksters tend to not enjoy being part of punishments or scoldings without their consent, so when it's rude to involve other kinksters I find it obvious that involving children by allowing them to hear it isn't exactly on the up and up either. There is more to power dynamics than kink, as you well know. Well and good, but you still don't know what sort of things they heard. Regardless, I believe there will be collateral damage in nearly any "kinkster" household that has kids, just as there is in a "vanilla" household where arguments take place. Plenty of people arque within earshot of kids. Does this mean they all grow up with major problems or as menaces to society? Please show where I even hinted they would grow up with major problems resulting in overhearing the scolding or to be menaces to society. Indeed, the only concern I expressed for their future was not knowing how to do their chores or their ability to function in society if they are being taught that men are only there to serve. This does not imply major problems or that they would become a menace to society. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub I have a suspicion and if forced to bet, I know where I would put my money. But in all fairness, there isn't anything forcing you to make a bet. This is just a message board. [;)] I didn't say anyone was did I? quote: quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub However, you don't know me as you are new to the boards. In time you might learn that when I say I wonder, I mean I wonder and when I have made up my mind, I say that very clearly. So am I to draw from this that you admit to the possibility of different scenarios regarding the OP, then? If you had read my previous posts, I have already stated several times that if I am corrected I will change my stance. This means I acknowledge that there are other possiblities but I do not regard them as the most likely given the present information. This does not undermine my current position, it simply does not over-inflate it as "the truth". I do not agree with you that I must withhold judgement until I have a full report on the situation from all angles. However, you took the wrong conclusion. That ending bit was only to clarify that when I say I wonder, I mean it. Meaning that you were positively incorrect in your statement that I have already made up my mind how you would post in the situation I wondered about.

SimplyIsaac -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/7/2010 10:22:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Please show where I even hinted they would grow up with major problems resulting in overhearing the scolding or to be menaces to society. Indeed, the only concern I expressed for their future was not knowing how to do their chores or their ability to function in society if they are being taught that men are only there to serve. This does not imply major problems or that they would become a menace to society. Call me crazy, but questioning/insinuating one's ability to function in society is fairly close to hinting "major problems".

beowulf1234 -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/7/2010 10:34:20 AM)
I didn't relizes this thread would be such a hard topic. I realize the basis of opinions are on lack of information. The instilling of Female Supremacy is based on the little one's social skills with the boys of her age breaking her heart. The older one was involved with young me with very little ambition\ motivation. Their idea was to get what they can and move to the next girl. Yes they both viewed me kneeling down when Mom came home, removing her shoes and kissing her hello, with a wine served so she can unwind. They never witnessed the beatings only scoldings if something wasn't done when she needed it to be. The dish was a larger than usual bowl, and I ate at the table with utensils with the family. My Mistress was a firm believer in the Cybelian culture and we began and continued to live this life. But not in view of the girls. They have never witnessed any of this.

CarrieO -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/7/2010 10:34:50 AM)
OP....thanks for coming back to offer a bit more information. You can see how these threads take on a life of their own.

SimplyIsaac -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/7/2010 10:44:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beowulf1234 I didn't relizes this thread would be such a hard topic. I realize the basis of opinions are on lack of information. The instilling of Female Supremacy is based on the little one's social skills with the boys of her age breaking her heart. The older one was involved with young me with very little ambition\ motivation. Their idea was to get what they can and move to the next girl. Yes they both viewed me kneeling down when Mom came home, removing her shoes and kissing her hello, with a wine served so she can unwind. They never witnessed the beatings only scoldings if something wasn't done when she needed it to be. The dish was a larger than usual bowl, and I ate at the table with utensils with the family. My Mistress was a firm believer in the Cybelian culture and we began and continued to live this life. But not in view of the girls. They have never witnessed any of this. Well, that sheds a little more light on the subject—or does it? Based upon this new information, do you feel "it's right for daughters"? After all, that is the thread title.

Lockit -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/7/2010 10:57:48 AM)
Beowulf... your posts have stated many different things. It looks like you were upset with your once 'former mistress' and came in complaining to get confirmation that she was in error with how you worded things and pointed a finger. Now... you continue a relationship and have lightened up how you word things... as it seems you are no longer concerned, angry, pissy and pointing a finger. Now.. you have kissed and made up and the story changes. In whatever was happening, you have misrepresented the situation at some point... have been so upset that you misled us and now you are playing it cool as if your first posts with all those claims really didn't mean anything and your concern was what? How dare you speak of your now wonderful dominant as you have! You should be ashamed of yourself! She was either bad or she wasn't and your words condemed her with your accusations and wording... poor poor pitiful you and now you kiss and make up after you have started a shit storm here. Again, you should be ashamed of yourself. I do wonder what she would think of her slave saying all he has said. You have done a dis-service to your dominant and to those you came to for assistance.

LillyoftheVally -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/7/2010 11:06:31 AM)
FR Problem as I see it is that there is no right way to do anything, the notion of childhood itself is a construct that we have created. One thing that is true is that children are vulnerable, I do not think that they have to be but in our society they are, parents can/do influence them massively in terms of what they become. I think that getting the balance right is hard, in my opinion parents should teach children options, how to think for themselves, but alas they do not. I do not see the OP's example as being worse than it would have been in a traditional 50's household, of course I don't see a traditional 50's household as a great place either. I do not like the notion of teaching gender as a solid structure with which to guide life, I don't even like the way that this thread mentions female led relationships as though they are vastly different to male led ones. What I do not like, about the later info from the op is the strict belief in cybelian culture part, I have issues with any belief structure being forced on children, despite the fact that often the parents believe it is best for the children. I guess though the old addage is true that parents fuck their kids up then they have to spend the rest of their lives sorting it out before they themselves fuck their own kids up. If children are taught the options, taught to challange the status quo then that is a wonderful thing, being told another set of strict confines simply reinforces the shit that carries on, the fact that it is a woman doing the bossing around doesn't make much difference to that.

PeonForHer -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/7/2010 11:07:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Please show where I even hinted they would grow up with major problems resulting in overhearing the scolding or to be menaces to society. Indeed, the only concern I expressed for their future was not knowing how to do their chores or their ability to function in society if they are being taught that men are only there to serve. This does not imply major problems or that they would become a menace to society. Call me crazy, but questioning/insinuating one's ability to function in society is fairly close to hinting "major problems". Who cares how close or distant it is? It's not the same. You're guilty of committing a continuum fallacy here, Isaac. 'The fallacy appears to demonstrate that two states or conditions cannot be considered distinct (or do not exist at all) because between them there exists a continuum of states. According to the fallacy, differences in quality cannot result from differences in quantity.' (Wikipedia.) In my opinion, this thread, and the argument as a whole, has become jam-packed full of these continuum fallacies Way too many examples of "If you believe argument X - that's close to believing argument Y. Y is so obviously wrong, so X must be too! It's a pain in the arse because all it does is lead to people responding, rightly affronted, with the comment, "But I didn't say that!"

DommeMae -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/7/2010 11:09:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Please show where I even hinted they would grow up with major problems resulting in overhearing the scolding or to be menaces to society. So why say, and I quote you: "it's unacceptable for children to hear regardless if it was brutal or not." Why is it unacceptable? Obviously, there is a negative consequence as a result in your mind. quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub And again I feel that your personal requirements for facts before forming any sort of opinion are not best suited to a message board where you are extremely lucky to get both sides. I feel your pessimistic slant on things is not good for a message board, either, just for the very reason it's unlikely we get both sides of the story. quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Again we disagree. Shocking. I'll refrain from insulting your position though. So you went from calling my position "lofty" to you'll refrain from insulting my position. Good. quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Indeed, the only concern I expressed for their future was not knowing how to do their chores or their ability to function in society if they are being taught that men are only there to serve. This does not imply major problems or that they would become a menace to society. Good, I'm glad you agree it likely won't cause major problems. But again, and this is a technical point I've brought up repeatedly. How do you know for certain they haven't been taught what chores entail? Further, it's possible she teaches her kids to not depend on others for this, but rather, see it as a privilege and convenience. "Men should work for the happiness of women." There is nothing inherently hateful or unhealthy about that from where I stand. quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub I didn't say anyone was did I? (being forced to make a bet) So why bring it up, if for nothing than a rhetorical comment devised to further substantiate your opinion. quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub May I suggest that the forums, where you likely never get such detailed information, is not quite the place for your lofty information requirements? The point is, we cannot possibly know what's really going on in a relationship just for that reason. quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub You are willing to give this woman the benefit of the doubt no matter what. I'm not. if you had read my previous posts, I have already stated several times that if I am corrected I will change my stance. This means I acknowledge that there are other possiblities but I do not regard them as the most likely given the present information. Let's explore the term you use. Giving the benefit of doubt: A favorable judgment granted in the absence of full evidence. Clearly, I haven't given her the benefit of the doubt anywhere in this thread. I've never said she was innocent until proven guilty. I've never stated my opinion as to her guilt or innocence. I stated throughout this thread (see below) that I can't make any judgments until I have more facts: - Until we hear from the OP, all we can do is speculate the POSSIBILITIES. - I don't defend anyone, I'm trying to get you to stop dismissing the possibilities which are out there. - It's possible for him to eat out of his special plate on the table. We don't know until he specifies. - It's possible she teaches them to not depend on others for this, but rather, see it as a privilege and convenience. It is possible. - I merely broached the possibility that it's possible there's more to the story and that the OP's very vague on several key statements. - No, I wouldn't defend anyone until I had enough facts. - He didn't give enough facts to make an assessment. - Aside from broaching the possibility of additional explanations, exactly how am I defending her? - And they should do this by looking at all the facts, rather than existing preconceptions, bias, speculations and assumptions. - We still don't have any evidence they heard actual beatings. If they did, again I don't condone that. - He said discipline. Discipline has many forms, from mild scolding to bodily harm. He needs to be more specific. - And I've been saying 'we don't have the full story as to what she's doing, telling or teaching the kids. Though your crystal ball seems to know. By the way, the men should be harnessed for a woman's advancement is nothing new. - You also don't know if tis woman beat him within their ear shot. Until the OP gets more specific, your assumptions are just that - assumptions. - We don't have enough facts from him to draw a conclusion. What was the plate called and where was it placed? What discipline did they hear? You don't-have these answers yet you already say she's damaging the kids. You need more facts.

CarrieO -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/7/2010 11:19:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beowulf1234 I didn't relizes this thread would be such a hard topic. I have a feeling that's not 100% true. The title and OP were just enough to inflame. Like I said...these threads can take on a life of their own, especially with little to go on except a few past posts and a carrot of possible controversy to dangle in front of everyone. I realize the basis of opinions are on lack of information. The instilling of Female Supremacy is based on the little one's social skills with the boys of her age breaking her heart. The older one was involved with young me with very little ambition\ motivation. Their idea was to get what they can and move to the next girl. You stated in your original post these young ladies were 15 and 20. You weren't clear if that was their age at your time of departure. Details help to clarify a muddled topic. Yes they both viewed me kneeling down when Mom came home, removing her shoes and kissing her hello, with a wine served so she can unwind. They never witnessed the beatings only scoldings if something wasn't done when she needed it to be. The dish was a larger than usual bowl, and I ate at the table with utensils with the family. From your original post...." I never posed an opinion of this but I always wondered if it were wrong." If it was as you describe now, why the concern? Now you make it sound like there was no reason to worry. Sounds like you're confused which leads me to think there's more to this than meets the eye. I could be wrong but that would mean you, as the OP, would need to come back and answer some questions. My Mistress was a firm believer in the Cybelian culture and we began and continued to live this life. But not in view of the girls. They have never witnessed any of this. But, you still felt it was enough of an issue to come here and start a thread about it, asking if it was "wrong". I'm standing by my first post on this thread http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2954251

SimplyIsaac -> RE: Is it right for daughters (1/7/2010 11:20:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Please show where I even hinted they would grow up with major problems resulting in overhearing the scolding or to be menaces to society. Indeed, the only concern I expressed for their future was not knowing how to do their chores or their ability to function in society if they are being taught that men are only there to serve. This does not imply major problems or that they would become a menace to society. Call me crazy, but questioning/insinuating one's ability to function in society is fairly close to hinting "major problems". Who cares how close or distant it is? It's not the same. You're guilty of committing a continuum fallacy here, Isaac. WTF? I don't care how much glade you attempt to spray on it here, Peon. Your argument for her argument stinks.

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