RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change

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Sanity -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 12:01:07 PM)
That is only a part of their backup position, another part being their innocent-sounding question, "what could it hurt to stop spewing all of this pollution into the atmosphere?" They're hoping of course that everyone has forgotten that the only reason CO2 was named a "pollutant" in the first place was because of its mythical contribution to "AGW". quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY hmmm ... is this the "backup" position, now that "AGW" seems to be on the ropes? "Well, maybe Anthropogenic Global Warming was a fraud, and bad science, and we've been caught out .... but we can still destroy the capitalist system and take away those pesky Americans' money by claiming that the evil CO2 is destroying the oceans!" Firm I believe you have it just about right, Firm. [:)]

rulemylife -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 1:18:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity That is only a part of their backup position, another part being their innocent-sounding question, "what could it hurt to stop spewing all of this pollution into the atmosphere?" They're hoping of course that everyone has forgotten that the only reason CO2 was named a "pollutant" in the first place was because of its mythical contribution to "AGW". CO2 Pollution and Global Warming The reason given for not classifying CO2 as a pollutant is based upon the fact that it is a natural component of the atmosphere and needed by plants in order to carry out photosynthesis. No one would argue the fact that carbon dioxide is a necessary component of the atmosphere any more than one would argue the fact that Vitamin D is necessary in the human diet. However, excess Vitamin D in the diet can be extremely toxic. Living systems, be they an ecosystem or an organism, require that a delicate balance be maintained between certain elements and/or compounds in order for the system to function normally. When one substance is present in excess and as a result threatens the wellbeing of an ecosystem, it becomes toxic, and could be considered to be a pollutant, despite the fact that it is required in small quantities.

popeye1250 -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 1:18:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: submittous So many GCC deniers here on collarme, sorta kills the old cliche that bdsm people are better educated and more sophisticated than the general public.... So many GCC believers here on Collarme, sorta kills the old cliche that bdsm people are better educated and more sophisticated than the general public... You know, when a salesman is giving you the "hard sell" intelligent people know it instinctively. The whole global warming religion is trying to push (their) beliefs on others. Why is it neccessary to "sell" this global warming crap? If it were actually good science wouldn't it stand on it's own merits? I tried to keep an open mind about this and started reading many articles about it. The "Tree Ring Methodology" of calculating past temperatures is a tried and true methodology and a widely accepted scientific tool. When it became known that the figures that GW crowd were using didn't even come close to this tried and true empirical method of measuring temps the global warmers simply stopped using it!!! Right then and there I knew something was terribly wrong! I thought, "wait a minute, scientists don't lie, do they?" That's the problem with this whole thing just like a salesman's "hard sell", they don't want to talk about the details. You ask them a question and they go off on a tangent or simply change the subject or start obfuscating! And the more you look into it the more the math simply doesn't work! I had a professor in college who told us once, "Mathematics is NOT "an opinion!" And now we are seeing "coverups" destroyed documents, fradulent figures and out and out lying! If your science is sound and mathematically correct why would you have to lie about it? If you have to "manipulate" your math to make it "fit" like in the tree ring experiments that's called lieing! A salesman who's honest will simply guide you through the buying process and will answer your questions to your satisfaction and will show you all the figures and not try to "hide" anything. You'll come away from the deal feeling good about it! Everytime I listen to the global warming religion "salesmen" I feel like I need a shower afterwards.

rulemylife -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 1:41:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth I'm so happy for the faithful to now have a second coming! CO2 saves their belief system. Same 'scientists', different 'crisis', same selective focus, same agenda based results. Same question I keep asking without a credible answer. For what purpose would they be making this up? If you want to argue the science is flawed then make your case and present your argument why. If you just want to argue that this is some conspiracy to defraud the planet then present the reason why people who spent years and a great deal of money educating themselves in these areas would perpetrate a fraud just to be ridiculed by those with little understanding of what they are arguing against.

Sanity -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 1:48:48 PM)
Its been pointed out to you several times that research grants are these people's bread and butter, rml. Not mentioned as often but still in play is that most college and university faculty members lean pretty far to the left, and it should be obvious to you by now that there is a huge political agenda behind this.

rulemylife -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 1:51:10 PM)
Speaking of salesmen Popeye, you've made a number of claims but have provided not one fact, unless we are just to accept that what you are saying is common knowledge. Sorry, but I don't.

rulemylife -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 2:00:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Its been pointed out to you several times that research grants are these people's bread and butter, rml. Not mentioned as often but still in play is that most college and university faculty members lean pretty far to the left, and it should be obvious to you by now that there is a huge political agenda behind this. Bullshit! A ridiculous idea made up by those who can't counter the scientific arguments and have instead led the gullible on a path to believe that it is really the scientists who are out to make money and the humble, innocent corporations are only there to benefit mankind.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 2:11:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth I'm so happy for the faithful to now have a second coming! CO2 saves their belief system. Same 'scientists', different 'crisis', same selective focus, same agenda based results. Same question I keep asking without a credible answer. For what purpose would they be making this up? If you want to argue the science is flawed then make your case and present your argument why. If you just want to argue that this is some conspiracy to defraud the planet then present the reason why people who spent years and a great deal of money educating themselves in these areas would perpetrate a fraud just to be ridiculed by those with little understanding of what they are arguing against. No, you dismiss the credible answers youve gotten.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 2:12:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Its been pointed out to you several times that research grants are these people's bread and butter, rml. Not mentioned as often but still in play is that most college and university faculty members lean pretty far to the left, and it should be obvious to you by now that there is a huge political agenda behind this. Bullshit! A ridiculous idea made up by those who can't counter the scientific arguments and have instead led the gullible on a path to believe that it is really the scientists who are out to make money and the humble, innocent corporations are only there to benefit mankind. At least youve come up with a fresh logical fallacy. Your strawmen were getting tiresome. False dichotomy.

rulemylife -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 2:13:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy No, you dismiss the credible answers youve gotten. Feel free to refresh my memory.

vincentML -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 2:16:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth I'm so happy for the faithful to now have a second coming! CO2 saves their belief system. Same 'scientists', different 'crisis', same selective focus, same agenda based results. Same question I keep asking without a credible answer. For what purpose would they be making this up? If you want to argue the science is flawed then make your case and present your argument why. Many of us have made a case but you ignore it: relative insolubility of CO2, ice core contradictions, Medieval Warming Period and Little Ice Age proxy data smoothed away, temperature measurements taken too close to metropolitan areas, etc quote: If you just want to argue that this is some conspiracy to defraud the planet then present the reason why people who spent years and a great deal of money educating themselves in these areas would perpetrate a fraud just to be ridiculed by those with little understanding of what they are arguing against. Doesn't have to be a conspiracy. Government money given selectively for research grants are huge incentives and disincentives. Secondly, for politicians the issue of information cascade I wrote about above. Do you think these politicians and world leaders have really studied the matter thoroughly. Group think. Political ambition. So, Rule, we have been offering the things you asked for but you have not addressed them. I suspect you have not looked too closely at the counter arguments. Vincent

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 2:21:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy No, you dismiss the credible answers youve gotten. Feel free to refresh my memory. Wow, short memory. Alzheimers setting in? Post 66

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 2:23:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth I'm so happy for the faithful to now have a second coming! CO2 saves their belief system. Same 'scientists', different 'crisis', same selective focus, same agenda based results. Same question I keep asking without a credible answer. For what purpose would they be making this up? If you want to argue the science is flawed then make your case and present your argument why. Many of us have made a case but you ignore it: relative insolubility of CO2, ice core contradictions, Medieval Warming Period and Little Ice Age proxy data smoothed away, temperature measurements taken too close to metropolitan areas, etc quote: If you just want to argue that this is some conspiracy to defraud the planet then present the reason why people who spent years and a great deal of money educating themselves in these areas would perpetrate a fraud just to be ridiculed by those with little understanding of what they are arguing against. Doesn't have to be a conspiracy. Government money given selectively for research grants are huge incentives and disincentives. Secondly, for politicians the issue of information cascade I wrote about above. Do you think these politicians and world leaders have really studied the matter thoroughly. Group think. Political ambition. So, Rule, we have been offering the things you asked for but you have not addressed them. I suspect you have not looked too closely at the counter arguments. Vincent Oh he looked at them, hoping to find some semantic argument or spin to counter them. Since he couldnt even find those he just dismisses it out of hand. That is his MO in every debate.

rulemylife -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 2:24:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy At least youve come up with a fresh logical fallacy. Your strawmen were getting tiresome. False dichotomy. Willbeur, I have to give you credit. You get funnier every day. Between calling arguments strawman and calling other posters trolls I laugh till I cry. But do take the time out of your busy schedule of financial wizardry to explain to me how my statements were in any way a false dichotomy.

vincentML -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 2:33:28 PM)
Rule, the acidification of the oceans is bullshit. I gave you the pH values above. If you know anything about pH you have to realize the oceans are not acidic. And those were just the surface values. Probably more alkaline in the depths. The alarmists would like us to think that there will be some incredible acceleration sometime in the future. It is always in the future this great disaster. Just Bullshit. Bullshit and group think.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 2:33:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy At least youve come up with a fresh logical fallacy. Your strawmen were getting tiresome. False dichotomy. Willbeur, I have to give you credit. You get funnier every day. Between calling arguments strawman and calling other posters trolls I laugh till I cry. But do take the time out of your busy schedule of financial wizardry to explain to me how my statements were in any way a false dichotomy. quote: A ridiculous idea made up by those who can't counter the scientific arguments and have instead led the gullible on a path to believe that it is really the scientists who are out to make money and the humble, innocent corporations are only there to benefit mankind. Youre right, I was unclear in my post. You used BOTH a strawman AND a false dichotomy. The strawman: A ridiculous idea made up by those who can't counter the scientific arguments and have instead led the gullible on a path to believe that it is really the scientists who are out to make money and the humble, innocent corporations are only there to benefit mankind. Find anyone here who argues both of those points. You cant. Strawman. Then, you have stated the inverse several times: Scientists are strictly out to further science, with no interest in personal gain, and corporations are blood suckers who will sell mankind down the river. There are a myriad of alternatives between the two. False dichotomy.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 2:44:59 PM)
quote: Its been pointed out to you several times that research grants are these people's bread and butter, rml. Not mentioned as often but still in play is that most college and university faculty members lean pretty far to the left, and it should be obvious to you by now that there is a huge political agenda behind this. ORIGINAL: Sanity And it's been pointed out to you several times that the bread and butter of the AGW scientists are paid by the companies that stand to benefit if they are discredited. One of the reasons it is so hard to come to the truth in this matter is that everyone has a personal stake in their sponsor's position, as opposed to the truth. As for most college professors being left leaning, I wonder what it is about being intelligent, well read and educated that leads to being a progressive? I think we should investigate that one.

Sanity -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 2:47:51 PM)
Its been said that those who can't do, teach.

rulemylife -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 3:02:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Many of us have made a case but you ignore it: relative insolubility of CO2 Carbon dioxide - Wikipedia Carbon dioxide is soluble in water, in which it spontaneously interconverts between CO2 and H2CO3 (carbonic acid). Temperature/Pressure on Solubility Carbonated beverages provide the best example of this phenomena. All carbonated beverages are bottled under pressure to increase the carbon dioxide dissolved in solution. When the bottle is opened, the pressure above the solution decreases. As a result, the solution effervesces and some of the carbon dioxide bubbles off. quote: Doesn't have to be a conspiracy. Government money given selectively for research grants are huge incentives and disincentives. Secondly, for politicians the issue of information cascade I wrote about above. Do you think these politicians and world leaders have really studied the matter thoroughly. Group think. Political ambition. So, Rule, we have been offering the things you asked for but you have not addressed them. I suspect you have not looked too closely at the counter arguments. I suspect the same of you. So I will again ask the question I have been repeating. Do you honestly believe that those who involve themselves in scientific research do so because they are seeking monetary rewards? And if you do believe that please point out where and how these research grants end up in the pockets of the researchers. The last I heard there were pretty strict controls on how government research funds are spent.

rulemylife -> RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change (12/19/2009 3:11:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Rule, the acidification of the oceans is bullshit. I gave you the pH values above. If you know anything about pH you have to realize the oceans are not acidic. And those were just the surface values. Probably more alkaline in the depths. The alarmists would like us to think that there will be some incredible acceleration sometime in the future. It is always in the future this great disaster. Just Bullshit. Bullshit and group think. And the scientific evidence of softer shelled shell fish? Just more bullshit because you don't want to believe it? Or maybe you can try offering some contrary evidence.

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