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Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 9:45:36 AM

rulemylife

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MONTEREY BAY NATIONAL MARINE SANCTUARY, Calif. — Far from Copenhagen's turbulent climate talks, the sea lions, harbor seals and sea otters reposing along the shoreline and kelp forests of this protected marine area stand to gain from any global deal to cut greenhouse gases.

These foragers of the sanctuary's frigid waters, flipping in and out of sight of California's coastal kayakers, may not seem like obvious beneficiaries of a climate treaty crafted in the Danish capital. But reducing carbon emissions worldwide also would help mend a lesser-known environmental problem: ocean acidification.

"We're having a change in water chemistry, so 20 years from now the system we're looking at could be affected dramatically but we're not really sure how. So we see a train wreck coming," said Andrew DeVogelaere, the sanctuary's research director, while out kayaking this fall with a reporter in the cold waters.

Nothing in the treaty negotiations specifically addresses the effects of carbon absorption in the oceans on marine life, which studies show is damaging key creatures' hard shells or skeletons.

Oceans absorb about 25 percent of the world's greenhouse gases pumped into the atmosphere from human activities each year, says a new U.N. report released at the Copenhagen talks this week. That helps slow global warming in the atmosphere, the focus of the Copenhagen talks.

..............."It's important to recognize that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is also being absorbed by oceans, and that makes oceans more acidic," Lubchenco told AP.

"I call this ocean acidification climate change's equally evil twin, if you will," she said. "And part of the need to reduce carbon emissions is to both slow down the rate of climate change but also to start repairing the damage that is being done to oceans."

Lubchenco pointed to the harmful effects of carbon absorption in the oceans as decreasing the amount of calcium carbonate that can be used by marine creatures to construct shells or skeletons.

"As the oceans become more acidic, it's harder for corals, oysters, clams, crabs, mussels, lobsters to make their shells or their hard parts, and they dissolve faster," she said.

"So ocean acidification, which is a relatively unappreciated problem, is as important as climate change. It's one that most people haven't heard of. Another way to think of ocean acidification is as osteoporosis of the seas."

Post #: 1

RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 10:22:26 AM

FirmhandKY

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hmmm ... is this the "backup" position, now that "AGW" seems to be on the ropes?

"Well, maybe Anthropogenic Global Warming was a fraud, and bad science, and we've been caught out .... but we can still destroy the capitalist system and take away those pesky Americans' money by claiming that the evil CO2 is destroying the oceans!"

Firm

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 10:30:08 AM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

hmmm ... is this the "backup" position, now that "AGW" seems to be on the ropes?

"Well, maybe Anthropogenic Global Warming was a fraud, and bad science, and we've been caught out .... but we can still destroy the capitalist system and take away those pesky Americans' money by claiming that the evil CO2 is destroying the oceans!"

Firm

I begin to see a pattern. Admitting that human industry and pollution is destroying our planet means someone might want to do something about it. Doing something about it will cost money. Therefore, the idea that pouring all manner of toxic sludge all over this planet in any way we like is not destroying our planet.

Gee...with logic like that...who needs science?

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 10:34:59 AM

Aneirin

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I heard about that here, from our own National Marine Laboratory, it seems they have got on the AGW band wagon too, but I also read somewhere, maybe these forums, the acidification of the seas, is balanced out by other happenings, the acidification is just one thing that has been isolated amongst other things, but the acidification is more political, so it comes to the fore.

And if it's not, then sea creatures will have to adapt to changing conditions, just like the humans, as nothing is going to stop the planet doing it's thing, or big business making money.

Honestly though, all these , if you can't blind them with science,(because the science is flawed), baffle them with bullshit peddlars, the pro AGW scientific community, they better watch it, because if they try to sell us something based on flawed data, they run the risk of being ignored and ridiculed in future, by a public fed up with bullshit baffling so called scientists, they will destroy their status for everyone involved in science.

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 10:37:28 AM

Sanity

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quote:

Deep-sea volcano erupts 4,000ft under the Pacific

Scientists have filmed a volcanic eruption 4,000ft (1,220m) under the sea causing molten lava to flow across the deep ocean floor.

The incredible footage, recorded by a submersible robot, shows the exact moment that a deep-sea volcano erupts from the ocean floor, sending an explosion of bright red lava bubbles and plumes of smoke-like sulphur through the water.

The eruption of the West Mata volcano was filmed by US scientists in May during an underwater expedition south of Samoa. It is the deepest erupting volcano to be discovered.

...

Scientists, who have tried for 25 years to capture an underwater eruption, hope that the images, data and samples obtained from the mission will shed new light on how the earth’s crust was formed. The research could also help to explain how some sea creatures survive and thrive in extreme environments and how the earth behaves when tectonic plates collide.

...

The West Mata volcano is producing Boninite lavas, believed to be among the hottest lava on Earth in modern times and a type only seen before on extinct volcanoes older than a million years.

“It’s surprising to find because we haven’t seen this before,” he said. “And you see the explosion and bubbles and the sea floor just opens up and suddenly – boom! It’s bright red. It’s just beautiful.”

The expedition also found that water from the volcano was very acidic — somewhere between battery acid and stomach acid. Shrimp were the only life thriving near the eruption.

According to the scientists, 80 per cent of eruptive activity on Earth takes place in the ocean and most volcanoes are in the deep ocean.

Full article at: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article6961323.ece

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 10:51:37 AM

luckydawg

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There is something going on with the coral
And there is something going on with the Bees
And the Glaciers are melting

These are real, which is why screwing with the Data is such a terrible thing. We have to adapt, and decide how to and how much we are going to intervene in the climate. It's almost time to begin dumping powdered lime into the oceans to fix the PH, for example.

That or we get rid of 8 billion people in the next generation.

I vote we start adjusting the thermostat. And put Solar panels and windmills where ever feasable.

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 10:54:04 AM

Aneirin

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Yeah, I heard that about undersea volcanoes, the very corrosive water, and shrimps actually thriving in the enviroment.

What I get with all this climate bullshit and oceanic stuff, is we, (meaning the more privleged people on this planet), have got hold of technology and now having become au fait with the technology, now see it as a god, it is the answer to the scientists prayers, for it is a god that can be controlled to serve and make the worshippers into elevated people, so non scientist types will listen to them. The scientists with their controllable and multi interpretational technology think they know it all, the planet is but a toy to them, but the reality is, the more that is found out about the mechanations of this planet, the more the realty is understood, humanity, actually knows very little, but we act as if we know everything.

One thing about computers I always understood, is the saying, shit in, shit out, input incomplete or flawed programming, and the output will be as good as the input.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 10:55:27 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Gee...with logic like that...who needs science?

Obviously not anyone who believes the global warming data; nor those that reported it for that matter even if they use 'scientist' as a label.

To be accurate shouldn't that quote read; "Gee...with logic like that...who needs science when we have Al Gore?"

Until recently that pretty much summarized the responses to scientific debate on the subject when incongruities within the global warming theory where brought up. Why when the target is moved should there be an expectation of anything more, or less?

No more time should be wasted shut down all industry (Western Industry anyway) IMMEDIATELY!

Greenhouse gases must be cut 80 percent by 2020, not by 2050 as U.N. countries propose, to preserve life as we know it, the head of a global conference said. "If we don't completely rethink and radically accelerate the plans to reverse global warming, we will, in all likelihood, create catastrophic climate change in our lifetime," State of the World Forum President Jim Garrison said Monday, the day before the independent international organization begins a four-day conference in Belo Horizonte, Brazil, to develop "climate leadership."

Fool me once - shame on me. Fool me twice - and I must be a Global Warming religious zealot!

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 12:11:47 PM

SpinnerofTales

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Merc,

C'mon..there's no need to shout so. We all know what's going to happen. If it was proven tomorrow, with the certainty of proof of gravity, that global warming was real, man made and going to cost billions of lives, no one would do anything about it. Why? Because it would cost money. Those with the money would find it cheaper to move to higher elevations and let the poor folk die off (there's plenty of them) than to spend a dime keeping it from happening. Even if countries like the US tried to do something about climate change, the affected companies would just find someplace like China who couldn't care less as long as the money is good.

So don't sweat whether it's true or not. Don't even care. It's not true because it would be costly for it to be true. That's all we need to know.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 12:23:06 PM

Estring

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Merc,

C'mon..there's no need to shout so. We all know what's going to happen. If it was proven tomorrow, with the certainty of proof of gravity, that global warming was real, man made and going to cost billions of lives, no one would do anything about it. Why? Because it would cost money. Those with the money would find it cheaper to move to higher elevations and let the poor folk die off (there's plenty of them) than to spend a dime keeping it from happening. Even if countries like the US tried to do something about climate change, the affected companies would just find someplace like China who couldn't care less as long as the money is good.

So don't sweat whether it's true or not. Don't even care. It's not true because it would be costly for it to be true. That's all we need to know.

Lol. Spinner Of Tales. Never has a moniker been more appropriate.

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 12:26:42 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

If it was proven tomorrow, with the certainty of proof of gravity, that global warming was real, man made and going to cost billions of lives, no one would do anything about it. Why? Because it would cost money.

You start with a false assumption. Global warning isn't true, never was true, and the only way it was made to look true was to misrepresent data. That represents the global warming movement. The theory of gravity works; whether Newton really did have an apple fall on his head or not, today as it did in Newton's time. The theory of global warming doesn't meet that basic SCIENTIFIC requirement.

Cost? Doesn't seem to be making a difference whether it's true or not, or that the data is valid - it isn't. Hillary, and President Obama are in Copenhagen committing $100 Billion on, as they would say were it a pragmatic court case, FACTS not in evidence.

Care? I care about waste whether it's wasted effort or wasted money. Caring about that waste hasn't stopped me from doing the piratical things like recycling and advocating for solutions that don't eliminate the ability for industry and commerce to be selectively eliminated from developed nations. I also care about the hypocrisy of many of the high priests of this movement. Pointing to a reality that they profit from the religion but don't actually believe it to the point of living under the conditions they require of the masses.

SHOUT? The religion of global warming has been shouting for years. Many people heard it. I'm going to keep shouting, if that's how you represent my posts, until the fundamentally flawed logic stops wasting money which could be used for better, and factually based, problems.

Edited to add:
Extra Thought...Since this newest CO2 crisis caused by the excess carbonation of soda is coming from many of the same sources as those saying that the polar ice caps will be gone in 5 years; I was wondering.

If Tim Donaghy, the admitted 'cheater' (you know - like scientists who toss away results that doesn't agree with their theory.) referee started to officiate hockey games would you trust the results of those games weren't influenced?

The worst thing that happened as a result of this fraud being perpetrated is that if there were some truthful discloser of a catastrophic world event, the earned doubt and scrutiny pointing to the scientific community caused by this fraud, could actually cause a slower than appropriate action. However, the cause of that delay wouldn't originate from the global warming skeptics; it comes from the believes still trying to believe, despite the admission, that Tim Donaghy was a 'good' referee in many cases and was simply too fanatical about who he wanted to win in some cases.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 12/18/2009 12:43:24 PM >

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 12:34:30 PM

Sanity

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The momentum of this debate has unquestionably been reversed. A few short weeks ago only "deniers" would dare utter such heresy.

quote:

If it was proven tomorrow,...

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 1:02:36 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The momentum of this debate has unquestionably been reversed. A few short weeks ago only "deniers" would dare utter such heresy.

quote:

If it was proven tomorrow,...

If you look back at my posts for more than ammunition, sanity, you'll find out that I was never on the bandwagon. I wasn't ready to accept the theory because of the word of a bunch of government funded scientists any more than I was willing to discount it on the word of a bunch of corporate funded scientists.

What I see here is science by opinon poll and to me that's bad science all around. But as I said, who cares? It's not like anything real or meaningful is going to be done no matter what the truth of the matter.

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 1:06:36 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The worst thing that happened as a result of this fraud being perpetrated is that if there were some truthful discloser of a catastrophic world event, the earned doubt and scrutiny pointing to the scientific community caused by this fraud, could actually cause a slower than appropriate action. However, the cause of that delay wouldn't originate from the global warming skeptics; it comes from the believes still trying to believe, despite the admission, that Tim Donaghy was a 'good' referee in many cases and was simply too fanatical about who he wanted to win in some cases.

You forget that Tim Donaghy was not the only referee. So far, what I see is an attempt to take a bad apple and spoil the bunch. That is also bad science.

By all means continue to shout. Continue to speak of man made global warming as a religion while those who don't believe it are "reputable scientists" slogans always are more effective than logic.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 1:12:26 PM

asyouwish72

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OK, deep breath, folks. Repeat after me:

Humanity really IS altering the global carbon cycle. That's just a fact. The people who deny it make themselves look like flat-earthers (who knows, maybe some of the posters here ARE flat earthers, for all I can tell). Atmospheric CO2 has been directly measured for decades- it's a simple, precise technique that a college undergrad could do well, and the values climb every year (with a small seasonal swing owing to photosynthesis & respiration, depending on where you are). We also have extremely good records based on gas inclusions in ice cores (another direct measure, so there's no worry about interpretation of proxies) going back several hundred thousand years, and we are far outside the natural range within that time. Glacial periods had CO2 concentrations of about 210 PPM, interglacial and preanthropogenic levels were ~ 280, and we're approaching 400 now. Once again, this is fact, not theory. There is no wiggle room whatsoever in these numbers. They simply are what they are.

Like any gas, CO2 solubilizes in water based on partial pressure (a fancy way of saying "the amount in the air"). Once in water, CO2 forms a proportional amount carbonic acid. Note the "acid" part. More CO2 in the atmosphere = more CO2 in the ocean = ocean acidification. I honestly cannot believe that anyone could doubt this. Really. It's that simple.

And just to cut off the obvious question, yes, it IS CO2 form fossil fuel combustion that drives this. There is an isotopic signature of fossil fuels in both C13 (stable heavy carbon) and C14(radiocarbon, which is entirely absent in fossil fuels owing to thier trememdous age), and it turns out that signal has been imprinted on atmospheric CO2 during the industrial period (look up the Suess Effect for further reference).

As to the biological & climatological effects of all of this, well, that's an area that's open for debate (although people who claim that the recent email leaks for the UK discredit antrhopogenic climate change research obviously have not read either the emails or the underlying science; really those allegations are pretty trivial to the overall picture), but issuing a blanket denial of acidification is just ignorant. No other word for it. Sorry.

PS- Yes, the 'volcano' story features acid water. That's not uncommon at geologic seeps, and nobody who knows anything about the subject gets excited by it. It's a matter of scale. That area, and others like it, are absurdly tiny next to the volume of the entire surface ocean, which is where the atmosphere-derived acidification is occuring.

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 1:17:52 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

By all means continue to shout. Continue to speak of man made global warming as a religion while those who don't believe it are "reputable scientists" slogans always are more effective than logic.

You're wrong. I don't need to have any other source, or even "reputable scientists" I use the data from the the scientists of ill repute - those that advocate for the global warming religion. Called so by me since the beginning since from the beginning their theory never fit into observable history. As it turns out it happened to be an accurate representation since no science was behind the science; leaving only religious belief.

I'm a heretic. Not atheist to the denial of human influence, but practical in the belief that only the ego of man, and in particular the global warming scientists, is on center stage in Copenhagen. There is no science being considered there, or at least no science in line with observable results, or without influence of personal and political agenda.

Or are you avoiding any of the political agenda speeches and commentary? I'll help you out if that's the case:

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said he "still" smelled sulfur after President Obama made a keynote speech at the Copenhagen climate conference Friday, accusing the American president of carrying the same satanic scent that Chavez believes followed Obama's predecessor, George W. Bush.

Veteran Cuban leader Fidel Castro on Friday dismissed US President Barack Obama's trip to UN climate change talks in Copenhagen as a "show," and complained that the world's poor will shoulder the burden of any summit agreement. Castro's opinion article, titled "The Moment of Truth," also criticizes the "fascist methods" used by Danish police to put down protesting environmental activists.

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)

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RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 1:26:09 PM

thornhappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

hmmm ... is this the "backup" position, now that "AGW" seems to be on the ropes?

"Well, maybe Anthropogenic Global Warming was a fraud, and bad science, and we've been caught out .... but we can still destroy the capitalist system and take away those pesky Americans' money by claiming that the evil CO2 is destroying the oceans!"

Firm

This is a simple fact of life. There is only so much buffering capability in the ocean - add enough CO2 and it'll acidify. Similar things can happen with our bodies due to various illnesses and disorders (though using a different buffering system) - and it's well known in biology that living things require very tight control of pH to maintain life. So after a certain point, the organisms listed won't be able to cope. Gods help us if plankton starts dying off - the bottom of the food chain would go.

Not too long ago, a lot of folks thought that excess atmospheric CO2 would be absorbed in the ocean indefinitely. Now we're seeing the limits of that mechanism.

thornhappy

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 17

RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 1:44:47 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Or are you avoiding any of the political agenda speeches and commentary? I'll help you out if that's the case:

I am studiously avoiding the poliitcal agenda and commentary on both sides. Neither has anything to do with science, which is what this is supposed to be about. Sadly, everyone has a dog in this race and the truth of the matter is, as I've said, irrelivant to just about everyone.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 18

RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 1:51:00 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: asyouwish72

As to the biological & climatological effects of all of this, well, that's an area that's open for debate (although people who claim that the recent email leaks for the UK discredit antrhopogenic climate change research obviously have not read either the emails or the underlying science; really those allegations are pretty trivial to the overall picture),

hmmm, pretty nifty little conclusion there, sport.

Let me see if I understand it just a little tiny bit.

The records of the rise the earth's temperature that are suppose to match the rise in CO2 have been revealed be be based on cherry picked data, fabricated data, and questionable analytical methods.

It appears as there may be no actual sustained, world wide temperature shift at all.

It's difficult to know, since much of the raw data is absent, mixed up, "lost" or destroyed. In at least three occasions, the "temperature rise" that has been "proven" in certain areas where the raw data is available (to real scientist) contradicts the claims of the supporters of AGW.

So ... no actual evidence of a world wide temperature rise ... yet you claim, that despite this, that "Anthropogenic Global Warming" exists? And that the absence of quantifiable data doesn't preclude a scientific conclusion that the world's temperatures are indeed actually rising due to man-made C02?

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 12/18/2009 2:07:20 PM >

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Post #: 19

RE: Acid oceans: the 'evil twin' of climate change - 12/18/2009 2:01:14 PM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

hmmm ... is this the "backup" position, now that "AGW" seems to be on the ropes?

"Well, maybe Anthropogenic Global Warming was a fraud, and bad science, and we've been caught out .... but we can still destroy the capitalist system and take away those pesky Americans' money by claiming that the evil CO2 is destroying the oceans!"

Firm

About 15 years ago when a lot of welfare money began drying up for "alchoholism" and "drug addiction" (alone) and also SSDI all the drunks and druggies "came down" with any number of of maladies to add to their addictions so that they'd "qualify" for welfare and SSDI. "Bi-Polar" was a biggie.
The warming religion is no differant.
Does anyone think they'll be cast out of their high-paying, cushy office jobs with full benefits where they're accountable to no-one without a "fight?"
This is like when the cops are questioning a suspect and he starts changing his story on t.v. "Well,.....(maybe) "global warming" (isn't) caused by man but look at the ACID OCEANS!"
They try to change the subject like saying that the e-mails that exposed them were,....."stolen!"
Those people will have to be dragged out fingernails scratching! "But, but,...I wouldn't know HOW to actually "W-O-R-K" for a living! "We haven't been trained for that!" "We have *"Advanced Degrees"* for God's sake we shouldn't have to p,p,..."produce" anything!"
It's like that Colllege "Perfessor" in Colorado, Ward "TONTO" Churchill being all "respectable" when first contacted by the Press but things got really ugly with him when it came out about him forging paintings and that he really wasn't an "American Indian" just a not particularly good looking person of English heratage.
He started slamming doors in reporter's faces, giving them the finger, being really mean and nasty, the actions of a person who knows that they've been caught.
I think we can expext to see a lot more of that kind of thing in the comming weeks and months as more and more people in the press realize that they've been lied to for a very long time.

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