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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 2:37:35 AM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

So I sat here and read the thread on the advent conspiracy or something like that. Then, trying to be a good bah humbug MF I dug a joke up and threw it in Humor about the new classic Christmas party.

Now comes work. There is a TV at work, I have no choice. The local Fox affiliate had something local today.

Someone had a fairly large display of Jesus standing there with a shotgun and Santa laying on the ground in front of him. The locals don't like it and local authorities said flat out that there is nothing they can do about it. They are thinking of getting up a petition.

Do they have the right ? Why should they be offended and then go home and watch Two Girls One Cup ? Watch blood and gore and guts on the cable TV. Laugh when a frog gets caught in the lawnmower.

On another level, just regular TV is not suitable for the young or faint of heart these days. Total bullshit.

Because it's on private property they can't make him take it down. Bet they could if it was a statue of a big penis.

Blow this off if you want, but I think it has issues on so many levels that it is not funny.

T


Hahaha, funny, but I can see the point of both sides, both have rights to their beliefs, be it religious, ethical or taste, but in order for us all to live together, we must be tolerant of each other, but, that is the problem, defining tolerance, what is an accepted level.

But if the person displaying the jesus and santa thing is trying to make a religious point on what they believe as being the true meaning of xmas, then even they have got it wrong, as xmas has very little to do with the festivities held at that time of year. The festivities held at that time of year, were pre christian, and even today, the so called heathen iconography and symbology is all over the xmas celebrations. If someone feels to get xmas, more christianity driven, then they should examine all aspects of xmas, and remove the pagan bits, and probably find, with all that gone, there is not a lot left to celebrate, except the birth of a sprog which researchers have discovered happened later in the year, ( April or May from what I heard), not at or around the solstice/Yule celebrations.

That given, maybe the heathens should drive to force out the erroneous christianity bits, as not being historically correct, and force xmas to be celebrated at the correct historical time, later in the year. But many heathens practice live and let live, they know their meanings and don't begruge other's theirs.


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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 2:44:28 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

Someone had a fairly large display of Jesus standing there with a shotgun and Santa laying on the ground in front of him. The locals don't like it and local authorities said flat out that there is nothing they can do about it. They are thinking of getting up a petition.


we have a statue of Santa kneeling at the manger. The point is the same, but without the violence.


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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 5:08:08 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Someone had a fairly large display of Jesus standing there with a shotgun and Santa laying on the ground in front of him.

That just sucks...

Maybe it will "disappear" in the middle of the night.

K.


Why?

It sounds like Jesus was just exercising his Second Amendment rights.

I would have thought you to be pleased that someone would defend their home from an intruder.

The castle laws proved their worth.

How do we know he was really Santa and not an impostor intent on rape, pillage, and plunder?

Doesn't Jesus have the right to protect himself?






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 12/19/2009 5:10:52 AM >

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 7:16:02 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I read a story a long time ago about a hillbilly who chopped down a billboard because it obstructed his view of the sunset, and it was not on his property. He said straight out that he would do it again, and again, and again.



Do you have a link? The story sounds kind of charming.

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 7:16:04 AM   
tsatske


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

we have a statue of Santa kneeling at the manger. The point is the same, but without the violence.


some fundies buy that display and love it. Some fundies hate it and very much object to it. They say it elevates Santa to the same historical point as Christ, real person, ageless, immortal, yadayada.

Maybe it was a second ammendment enthusast of the second sort of fundieism, eh?

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 8:48:49 AM   
Termyn8or


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I think my point is I don't care. Not that I don't care, more like it is none of my business. He can put almost anything up in his yard that isn't pornographic. Now don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with porn but it doesn't belong on the front lawn. Do we apply the same logic here ? I don't think it is quite the same thing.

Now I might as well tell you, I like the thing. I think it has much meaning, mostly a disdain on the part of the artist that Christmas  has been so commercialized that is has pretty much been bastardised. In my opinion, the rampant gift buying and lavish expeditures teach the young to be materialistic, something no Parent would profess to want, yet they let it happen right under their noses. If I were the "displaying" type I would consider one like it or very similar.

And if your kids have questions just tell them it should teach them not to play with guns, or not to sneak into other peoples' houses. By the time that answer doesn't work, if you can't tell them the truth something is wrong. If you can't think on your feet well enough to come up with such an answer I don't know what to tellya.

That's my opinion, which should be irrelevant. So should those of the neighbors.

Another opinion of mine is about the media. It's obvious they make alot of money this time of year. They probably intended it to be a negative example, but by making news out of it they have given it national attention. If I were the guy who put it up I would be pretty smug about now.

Unfortunately there is no link to the story about the hillbilly cutting down the sign. That's from a short atory I read before the internet even existed, at least for regular folk. "Reading before the internet ?" you say ? Yes, people did read things before the internet. I have the advantage of having been able to recover most long term memory, know how I did it ? I shunned entertainment for about 2½ years. No fiction, no TV not even music. Now that my mind has regrouped so to speak, I brought back music, my taste in fiction is warped in the sense that I like things like The Onion. You still can't get me to sit in front of the boob tube for more than a couple of minutes.

However the hillbilly story, even though the details are scant, I think has relevance. One person's use of their own land interferes with another's. Who is right and who is wrong there ? In many places it is illegal and wrong to dam up or pollute a stream on one's own property, for obvious reasons. Do we now need a legal definition of the difference between the running of a stream and a ray of sunshine ?

I hate to bring up the chorus again but, I see this as yet another symptom of overpopulation. I think we are going to see more and more of this type of controversy in years to come, that is until something comes along and wipes out alot of lives. Suggestion : Let nature take care of it.

If every Citizen of that town voted to order the removal of the supposedly offensive display should it be removed ? I say no. While as Spock may have said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", that does not, or should not apply to rights, especially when it comes to self expression.

People need to be more objective. What this guy's message was is pretty clear, but what if the shoe was on another foot ?

Let's suppose I am a Black Man who celebrates Kwazaa. (personally I don't know much about it, it didn't become anything near mainstream until recently even if it has been around for centuries). I decide to make a Kwanzaa display. It is a Black Man standing there with a whip and a White Man in chains in front of him pulling a plow or something. The Black Man has a White wench at his side, presumably the White Man's Wife. (I suppose I would have to express that by her arms outstretched toward the White Man) A caption that reads

HA HA HA (crossed out)
HE HE HE (crossed out)
NO, HO HO HO !

The display is meant to illustrate the evils in how we got here, that we couldn't celebrate OUR holiday for a long time and the fact that I CAN put up such a display.

OK, now I am White again. I drive by on the street and see it. I'm sure many would find it racist, repugnant and all kinds of nasty things and try to claim all kinds of shit, like attempted insurrection and so forth. But that doesn't wash. Personally I think it would take alot of damn gall to put up such a display, and would like to meet the person who did it.  I would probably knock on the door with a sixpack of Colt 45 :-). Even that could be taken as racist, or accomodating.

I find advertising repugnant, in fact it has the opposite effect on me. I tend not to buy what is advertised. In fact I want all billboards removed from the city. Wish me luck.

T

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 9:13:39 AM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline 		To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, as in this is not my actual stance... why can't you have porn on your front lawn? Why is censorship in the sexual domain more acceptable?

Now, you're going to mention children, so I'm going to preempt you with this: so, there's a famous anthropologist by the name of Malinowski. He did some work on the Trobriand Islands. One of the 'juicy' finds was that parents (or adults) would often have sex with kids nearby, even in the same room. Guess what? The kids turned out fine. Even more so, there's some speculation that the whole Freudian Latency stage, even some disorders, results from the type of sexual repression that might otherwise be dubbed censorship or civility.

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 9:16:19 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		I have porn on my front lawn, I am walking porn, it ain't just for christmas anymore.

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 9:23:29 AM   
Aileen1968


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I have porn on my front lawn, I am walking porn, it ain't just for christmas anymore.


I wanna live next door to you. Howdy neighbor.

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 9:54:38 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Mr8 (hope you don't mind, it's easier to type), that is not really Devil's advocate.

Though things have laxed up here, I don't want this to go in the wrong direction. Sex is for adults. But does that mean they must be totally ignorant of it until adulthood, even though that is seemingly impossible these days ? I say no, but societal standards say different. Plus Parents do have a right to determine what is inappropriate, as such the default must be to accomodate them.

Let's say you are the Devil's advocate and it is Valentine's Day or Sweetest Day. You get a display up of a naked Woman, but tasteful with certain parts artisically hidden. She is in the arms of a Man with a lunchbox in his hnad, just home from work presumably. She has one leg lifted. Kids ask why. So at six you tell them it's because she really likes/loves him. At sixteen you tell them she is hot for him. I can understand that.

Unfortunately in this society the two issues are complex. Puritanical viewpoints have shaped western society and others for millenia. When it comes to Freud, me thinkst thou dost profess too much. Seems like everything was sex. Eat to have sex, bathe to have sex, work to have sex. As if there were nothing in the id except for sex and all else was relegated to the ego and superego. Even before that was Catholicism.

Decades ago there was a movie called The Devils. It seemed loosely based on the beginning of the Protestant church. The leader of the little group of followers was tortured to death of course, but before that he (the character at least) asserted that all this repression of sexual desires was not healthy. I agree, but it is not my right to influence a Parent's choices from the outside, especially when it comes to something that can have a profound effect on people's lives.

It's hard to be objective huh ? I am not being sarcastic, it is hard because most don't have any experience at it. It's like all these beliefs and shit have caused the atrophy of a certain part of people's minds. Am I saying that too much guidance is not good ?

Maybe.

T

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 3:09:00 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
Status: offline 		My questions were not intended to be answered, just to highlight a different view. And your opinion that "lawn displays are allowable or they are not allowable," pretty much renders yours rhetorical. But I'll respond to something else you said...

quote:

ORIGINAL SpinnerofTales

The first amendment has always been recognized as existing to protect offensive speech.

The purpose of the first amendment, in my opinion, is to protect the free expression and exchange of ideas, not to grant license to every imaginable form of offensive speech and behavior (which is also somehow "speech" now).

The rights to freedom of assembly and freedom of speech do not license people to hold a demonstration in the middle of the interstate at rush hour, impairing the ability of others to enjoy their lives by getting home for dinner with their families.

My first thought on reading the OP was the same as tsatske's. Does someone's right to free speech really turn on whether or not they can inflict discomfort on children and impair the ability of others to enjoy one of the holiest holidays of their year?

To say that freedom isn't license is academic. Less evident, apparently, is that freedom depends upon the restraint of license. But on the case in question, I prefer to leave an extended debate to those more interested in pursuing one.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/19/2009 3:20:25 PM >

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 3:26:38 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

The purpose of the first amendment, in my opinion, is to protect the free expression and exchange of ideas, not to grant license to every imaginable form of offensive speech and behavior (which is somehow "speech" now). ORIGINAL: Kirata





The problem I have with your point of view twofold.

First, by a narrow definition of speech and expression, such things as pictures, novels, songs and any other such artistic statement isn't covered. I find this a dangerous slope.

Second, it seems to me that the underlying question here is whether expression can be judged upon content. Whether this person's statement is "Christmas is overly commercialized" or "The whole idea of Christmas is a bad one" or even "Jesus could kick Santa's ass", to say his right to say so in whatever way he wishes is less than those who want to say "This is a wonderful holiday and we are proud of it" is to negate the very freedoms the first amendment was put in place to protect.

As for your argument about inflicting discomfort, I again must ask a question in hope of an answer. Should the fact that the sight of a man with a spear wound in his side, nails through his palms, hanging on a torture device could make someone not sharing that faith uncomfortable mean that they have the right to ban the crucifix?

Also, your analogy about demonstrations at rush hour on the freeway is a poor one. The highway is public property. This display is on private property. The rules for what is appropriate upon each are different for obvious reasons.


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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 6:10:34 PM   
submittous


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Status: offline 		Gosh, I think it is pretty good social commentary. Most open minded people who read the new testament come away feeling Jesus is depicted as anit-consumerism and anti capitalism. He said it is easier for a camel to go through the head of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven and is said to have thrown the money changers(bankers) out of the temple. For the first 1500 years of Christianity they wern't allowed to collect interest.

I'd say if Jesus could come back and see things like Christmas he'd shoot someone....

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 6:43:13 PM   
tazzygirl


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First, a petition is the right of the community. Asking someone to remove something you find offensive isnt the same as demanding you stop the offensive act.

Second, i detest any promotion of violence. There are times when it may be necessary. Jesus killing santa and rudolf could very well send a few kids in for counseling. Just because we think the idea is a good one, or funny, or witty, we do have an obligation to at least consider the impact to those around us.

Third, i thought the newscast said he had already taken down the display.

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 6:46:21 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

FR

First, a petition is the right of the community. Asking someone to remove something you find offensive isnt the same as demanding you stop the offensive act.

Second, i detest any promotion of violence. There are times when it may be necessary. Jesus killing santa and rudolf could very well send a few kids in for counseling. Just because we think the idea is a good one, or funny, or witty, we do have an obligation to at least consider the impact to those around us.

Third, i thought the newscast said he had already taken down the display.


I'll ask you, as I asked, K, tazzy. How is a tableaux of Jesus shooting Santa more violent than a statue of a man nailed to a cross, bleeding from a spear wound, with thorns piercing his forehead and blood dripping down his face? What is the justification for one being ok and other not ok?


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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 6:48:01 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Because the one of the cross actually happened?

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 6:54:10 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Because the one of the cross actually happened?


First off, I don't believe it did and have seen no demonstrable proof of it. But let's take your logic and say that if something happened, it is acceptable to memorialize it publicly. Would it then be ok to depict Jews being tortured and killed during the Inquisition? Or would it be acceptable to show witches being burned at the stake? How about showing a slave (the kind they had before the emancipation procolmation) being whipped to death, having his foot cut off or being castrated in loving detail? All those things happened as well.

I'm trying to understand why this display isn't to be defended other than the "I don't like it" argument.

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 7:14:55 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Do we not have displays of Holocaust events? I know i have certainly seen them, so did my son in school. Trail of Tears... can be gruesome. Salem Witch trials... The Inquisition... slavery... all of these events are memorialized in numerous places.

Now, we take two figures that are prominent in a christian home... Jesus and Santa Claus (Santa is prominent in many children's lives... not just christians... before i get tagged for that) Children are taught that these "figures" "men" whathaveyou.. are good, kind and caring. Now someone depicts one shooting the other.

While the freedom of expression is granted... its only granted to a point...

But, perhaps this point has been overlooked....

A school bus stop is just outside the fence that separates the display from the town's main roads.

http://www.wpxi.com/news/22005291/detail.html


Does it have to be in front of the school bus stop?

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 8:24:32 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Do we not have displays of Holocaust events? I know i have certainly seen them, so did my son in school. Trail of Tears... can be gruesome. Salem Witch trials... The Inquisition... slavery... all of these events are memorialized in numerous places.

Now, we take two figures that are prominent in a christian home... Jesus and Santa Claus (Santa is prominent in many children's lives... not just christians... before i get tagged for that) Children are taught that these "figures" "men" whathaveyou.. are good, kind and caring. Now someone depicts one shooting the other.

While the freedom of expression is granted... its only granted to a point...

But, perhaps this point has been overlooked....

A school bus stop is just outside the fence that separates the display from the town's main roads.

http://www.wpxi.com/news/22005291/detail.html


Does it have to be in front of the school bus stop?


Well, since that is where his property is, I would have to say yes.

I am very sensitive to censorship.  I am against it in almost every case. Once you accept that you can control what people can say, it becomes just a case of who is in power at the time choose to be allowed to be said.

In this case, I support the right of the person to put it up. I support the right of the neighbors to ask him to take it down. I support his decision to do so.

What I don't support is the idea that anyone has the right to make him take it down. I also don't support the idea of anyone going onto his property and "disappearing" the display.

It seems that the process of free speech worked all the way around this time.


< Message edited by SpinnerofTales -- 12/19/2009 8:25:59 PM >

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 8:53:20 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Once you accept that you can control what people can say, it becomes just a case of who is in power at the time choose to be allowed to be said.

Nobody who has found this display objectionable, not one single person, has argued a case for, or claimed the right to, or evidenced any intention or desire whatsoever to control what people can say. It is and has always been purely and wholly about where and how, the means and the method, and the effect on others of that choice.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/19/2009 9:05:19 PM >

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