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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 9:29:15 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Once you accept that you can control what people can say, it becomes just a case of who is in power at the time choose to be allowed to be said.

Nobody who has found this display objectionable, not one single person, has argued a case for, or claimed the right to, or evidenced any intention or desire whatsoever to control what people can say. It is and has always been purely and wholly about where and how, the means and the method, and the effect on others of that choice.

K.

Well, other than your post indicating that you might approve of it being "disappeared" from his property at night, perhaps you're right.

I have said before that the questions of whether someone has the right to do something and whether someone should do it are two separate discussions. My interest in this case is that it be accepted that he has the right to do so. To me, securing that right is more important than the more subjective question of whether it is good that it be done.

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 9:50:38 PM

Termyn8or

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FR

Kirata, we might not be on the same page, but I do see your point. But one of my questions that nobody has answered is _ even in a town of 1,000 people, if one puts up such a display and the other 999 people want it taken down, do they have a right to make him take it down ? Are the right of one as important as the rights of a thousand or not ?

Spinner, I agree with you on alot of things, but comes time for the acid test. You seem very open minded but let's push the envelope. Do a search for D6MRD, and see the story of Ernst Zundel. If you can tolerate that, you have my respect, bigtime. This is someone's opinion, not a dangerous ordinance. It may be offensive to many, but as I have said, offense is in the eye of the beholder. If you reserve ire for one, you can have ire for all.

We are meandering about, but I think we are headed in the right direction generally. The answer as always is a question. What is acceptable and what is not, but further, who decides just what is to be under consideration at all and what is not ?

T

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 10:22:34 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

Kirata, we might not be on the same page, but I do see your point. But one of my questions that nobody has answered is _ even in a town of 1,000 people, if one puts up such a display and the other 999 people want it taken down, do they have a right to make him take it down ? Are the right of one as important as the rights of a thousand or not ?

Spinner, I agree with you on alot of things, but comes time for the acid test. You seem very open minded but let's push the envelope. Do a search for D6MRD, and see the story of Ernst Zundel. If you can tolerate that, you have my respect, bigtime. This is someone's opinion, not a dangerous ordinance. It may be offensive to many, but as I have said, offense is in the eye of the beholder. If you reserve ire for one, you can have ire for all.

We are meandering about, but I think we are headed in the right direction generally. The answer as always is a question. What is acceptable and what is not, but further, who decides just what is to be under consideration at all and what is not ?

T

Termyn8or, I looked up the D6MD site. There is absolutely no question in my mind that this person is putting out anti-semitic, revisionist history that has absolutely no worth and is offensive to me in a very deep manner. I also support his right to say it, publish it and put it forth as much as I support anyone's right to exercise their free speech. I will gladly exercise my freedom of speech to let this person and anyone else who will listen know just how disgusting I find his words. But I see myself having no right, anymore than anyone else does, to stop his words because they are found offensive.

It is not the privilege of free speech. It is the right of free speech. And that means it cannot be compromised by the will of the majority or the desire that others not be offended are far lesser concerns than protecting that right for every person in this country.

Let us remember. The right to free speech is the first matter covered in the United States Constitution. The right not to be offended by other's speech is nowhere to be found in that document.

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 10:38:00 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Kirata, we might not be on the same page, but I do see your point. But one of my questions that nobody has answered is _ even in a town of 1,000 people, if one puts up such a display and the other 999 people want it taken down, do they have a right to make him take it down ?

Term,

Just to clarify, then, I don't see this as a matter of whether or not people "want" it taken down. People didn't like the Piss-Christ being displayed either. But hey, don't go see it.

This is on a public road. And I would think that even people who don't object to the display, who may even support it, or find it amusing, could acknowledge that inflicting distress on children is not necessary to this individual's right to express his ideas when he can freely do so by other means or in a different setting.

I would have seen no infringement of free speech in a judge telling the Nazis, "Skokie? Hell no!" either. Considerations of time and place, means and method, intent and effect, do not automatically constitute an abridgment of someone's right to express their ideas without fear of persecution or reprisal by the State.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/19/2009 11:09:25 PM >

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/19/2009 11:57:12 PM

Termyn8or

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FR chonologically.

Spinner, you get the gold. For extra points you could say that what happened to Zundel was just as bad as what "the enemy" did. No matter what the viewpoint, or country involved, free speech is that important. But you are one of the few with whom a contrary idea such as D6MRD can be discussed, although here is not the place. When you actually detect the intent of offense, rather than creating it in your own mind, you are one step closer to being truly objective. Perchance one day we might have a drink and (I think) a very interesting discussion.

Kirata, I cannot disagree with you really. Community standards are important, but define community. As many know I come from a racist background, but have changed my mind on it, and what I say next is what I say, no more nor less. I believe that it should be possible in this country to have segregation. I know separate but equal didn't work, but together and equal works equally as poorly. But I think there is nothing wrong with having Black areas, White areas, Hispanic areas, Italian areas, Jewish areas, Musim areas, Asian areas and so forth if that's what people want. If people want to segregate their own from multiculturism that should be a choice, but it is not. Why shouldn't every race have the chance to immerse their family in their heritage, so they might find some roots. Maybe understand themselves better, and grow in an environment more suitable. Everyone should have that. But we don't.

The baseline is, Christians have a majority in this country. In a democracy the majority rules, mob rules so to speak. It can get oppresive. The reason the founding Fathers abandoned the idea of a democracy are well known. In a republic, even the wishes of many cannot be imposed on the few, this is not true of a democracy. What's more the early settlers were not happy with the ties between state and religion in the first place, for whatever reason. Not a democracy, but I figure some repression must have been coming from somewhere.

So it boils down to this : some think this (or any) public display should be scrutinized and approved, and I disagree. In a perfect world, Puritans would take their kids to museums to see Davin and Cupid and Psyche. Whites (like me) would hear the words of Farakaan, King and others, Jews would hear the words of neo Nazis, and so forth. Each would accept each other as co-tenants of the planet and not invoke their own hatred, malice or prejudice. They would not use their children to exclaim that some expression is harmful, they would be honest and say they don't like it.

Then perhaps we can make some progress in peacefully coexisting in this world. What say you ?

T

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/20/2009 6:13:56 PM

tazzygirl

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I have no issue with him wishing to promote his belief... whatever it may be. What i do take issue with is his determining his RIGHT to do so at the expense of some community members. These members are not adults, they have no choices where they live, where they are driven... far from adults with these choices, they are children without choices.

Can you fuck whomever you wish in your home? yep. can you do it on your lawn? nope. in the perfect world you and Master Spinner describe, you should be allowed too.

I agree, freedom of speech needs to be protected. But when that protection is upheld at the expense of the smallest, weakest part of our civilization, people need to speak up.

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/20/2009 6:28:58 PM

MarsBonfire

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Frankly, I'd be rather surprised that no "christians" would have spoken up, about having their savior portrayed as some kind of cold blooded Rambo-type killer. (Something about Commandment #5?) Well, I suppose it isn't surprising that no one on this site seems to have reacted in any way to the apparent refutation of everything that Jesus and his teachings stood for.

As far as something happening in the middle of the night... well, I suppse we could add a few additional figures to the display... maybe a guy dressed in a "Pride" t-shirt, lying facedown in the snow, in a pool of his own blood... and maybe a young woman, obviously pregnant, wearing a "it's my choice" shirt.... I mean, if you're going to portray what modern christianity has become (violent and intolerant) you might as well go all the way! Especially since the owner of this display seems to be one of those "bitterly clinging to my guns and religion" types discussed in the election last year.

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RE: Christmas display ramifications - 12/20/2009 6:44:43 PM

tazzygirl

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I didnt view it that way Mars. The man is entitled to his opinion... and im some ways, i even agree with him. Im sure some atheists were celebrating the display... again... their choice. I do not believe we, as a society, have the right to torment children with such sights... if it were in a museum, art gallery, anyplace for private viewing, i wouldnt give it another thought. Its his interpretation, and he is welcome to it. But its become open market on anything religious... this is just the latest stunt. Religion wont disappear because someone put a gun into a jesus statues hands.... just like it wont go away because god cant be put upon government buildings, because a glowing santa has to be placed within so many feet of a manger scene, ect.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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