RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper?

RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (Full Version)

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MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 5:26:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic I wish all of you, and that means ALLLLL Of you that read this, a happy and joyful St. Nicholas Day, and Bodhi day, a Happy Hanukkah, a joyful Christmas, and warm Winter Solstice, have a great Ashura and Al Hijra - and a merry Kwanzaa.For the non believers have a happy holiday season, for scroooges, bah humbug:) I made a traditional card online for anyone who cares to take a peek. Its not trickery or partisan, it is meant from my heart. Here.... http://www.lucylasticslair.com/christmas/ With regards to the other part of the topic, I agree with Rich regarding unemployment, and also with Music and Spinner up to and including those on welfare. MzMia, you are wonderful and everyone else who shared greetings, have a wonderful holiday Lucy PS if your page brings up an antivirus thingy, it should be fine now, I have just re written some odd code. Merry Christmas Lucy!!! Thank you for such a sweet post. I adore most of the folks around here, regardless of political affiliations. Thank you for the Christmas card, it is thoughtful!! I love your new avatar, "so many black kettles calling the pot black" around here!! hehehe Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, Happy Bodhi and Winter Solstice, Happy Everything!!!! [:)]

MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 5:29:59 PM)
Again, a general question for everyone around here. WELFARE, are we or are we not our brother's keepers, AND what about all the people that may soon need welfare, and due to the "reforms" will not qualify and be able to get it??? Wasn't welfore really created for times like our current depression? What about having a "safety net"? Institute for Policy Studies: Why Welfare Reform Fails its Recession Test

vincentML -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 5:51:22 PM)
A happy and festive Season of Lights to all. Thank you, Mia. Yes to your question. We are our brothers keepers. No one should be without food, shelter and medical care. We should make it part of our social contract. The Treasury and the Fed have poured out a lot of money to head off economic disaster. Some of the stimulus money went to the States to maintain jobs for public employees. I applaud that. Some of it went for "shovel ready" jobs. I really don't know how much but evidently not enough looking at the rate of unemployment. Maybe too much went to banks who took the money and speculated more with it. I have heard that claim often from the TV commentators. It is all so very complicated with the bust in the housing bubble and credit stall. I don't have the remedy but we need more jobs. Vincent

MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 6:15:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML A happy and festive Season of Lights to all. Thank you, Mia. Yes to your question. We are our brothers keepers. No one should be without food, shelter and medical care. We should make it part of our social contract. The Treasury and the Fed have poured out a lot of money to head off economic disaster. Some of the stimulus money went to the States to maintain jobs for public employees. I applaud that. Some of it went for "shovel ready" jobs. I really don't know how much but evidently not enough looking at the rate of unemployment. Maybe too much went to banks who took the money and speculated more with it. I have heard that claim often from the TV commentators. It is all so very complicated with the bust in the housing bubble and credit stall. I don't have the remedy but we need more jobs. Vincent Vincent was nice to me!! [sm=mrpuffy.gif] Happy Holidays to you also, Vincent! I do think the issue of who is eligible for welfare, will become an issue in 2010. Many people don't have safety nets, and I don't see millions of jobs being created any time soon.

Lucylastic -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 6:24:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia Merry Christmas Lucy!!! Thank you for such a sweet post. I adore most of the folks around here, regardless of political affiliations. Thank you for the Christmas card, it is thoughtful!! I love your new avatar, "so many black kettles calling the pot black" around here!! hehehe Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, Happy Bodhi and Winter Solstice, Happy Everything!!!! [:)] Thankyou Mia:) I feel the same, and wanted to share:) Where my mum comes from , they changed it around to be, "Pot calling the kettle grimy arse" I much prefer that version heh.

TheHeretic -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 6:32:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia WELFARE You're so impatient, Mia. You know I'm good for a comment or five on this topic. I'm trying to get stuff done around here, y'know. That downstairs bathroom has to be clean enough for a drunk to puke in for our Christmas Eve margarita party, after all. The key element is the fourth paragraph of your link: Welfare reform also provided the states with nearly complete discretion over how to administer benefits. That's the kicker right there. I'm not sure how it's set up in your part of the country. Where I am, in the Peoples Republic of California, we dole out roughly 30% of all the welfare benefits given nationwide. A number was rolling around a few months ago (with little reason to suspect it has changed) that 20% of the population of Los Angeles County was receiving some sort of welfare. The question I have to ask you is this. What kind of "help" are we talking about, and for who? People who lose their jobs, assuming they have been steadily working, are going to be utilizing the unemployment system, not welfare. Unemployment benefits might, if you have a big enough family, be supplemented by food stamps or WIC. Actual TANF (temporary assistance to needy families) is a big step down from there. President Obama's stimulus included a 13% raise for food stamp recipients (it runs out just in time for the 2010 elections, but that is another subject). I don't know of anybody else who got a 13% raise this year. Let's not go trying to say they have been abandoned, okay?

SDFemDom4cuck -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 6:50:14 PM)
My dear friend Mia... I came to say Merry Christmas. I don't usually participate here but I'll reply to your question as well. Over Thanksgiving I baked 20 pies and volunteered at my local Soup Kitchen/Food Bank. While I staffed a shift serving I was horrified to learn that they wouldn't need many volunteers to pack boxes since the Food Bank itself was running on near empty. It seems that with the economy more people than ever are not viable for welfare due to their previous incomes and are relying more and more on the Food Bank to get through the month. Which also goes to say that along with the economy more and more people can't afford to donate either. Please folks...if you can donate to your local Food Bank, not just during the holidays but throughout the year. I digress though... Sorry to hijack there for a moment but yes, I think that we are our brother's keepers... to those that truly need the help to get by for awhile. Given the way things have been lately who can truly say that they won't be one of those that need it at some point in the future whether they would expect to or not. It can happen to any one of us.

MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 6:54:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia WELFARE You're so impatient, Mia. You know I'm good for a comment or five on this topic. I'm trying to get stuff done around here, y'know. That downstairs bathroom has to be clean enough for a drunk to puke in for our Christmas Eve margarita party, after all. The key element is the fourth paragraph of your link: Welfare reform also provided the states with nearly complete discretion over how to administer benefits. That's the kicker right there. I'm not sure how it's set up in your part of the country. Where I am, in the Peoples Republic of California, we dole out roughly 30% of all the welfare benefits given nationwide. A number was rolling around a few months ago (with little reason to suspect it has changed) that 20% of the population of Los Angeles County was receiving some sort of welfare. The question I have to ask you is this. What kind of "help" are we talking about, and for who? People who lose their jobs, assuming they have been steadily working, are going to be utilizing the unemployment system, not welfare. Unemployment benefits might, if you have a big enough family, be supplemented by food stamps or WIC. Actual TANF (temporary assistance to needy families) is a big step down from there. President Obama's stimulus included a 13% raise for food stamp recipients (it runs out just in time for the 2010 elections, but that is another subject). I don't know of anybody else who got a 13% raise this year. Let's not go trying to say they have been abandoned, okay? Hey I am trying to get a lot of stuff done here too! I am cleaning the house up, preparing to wrap presents AND watching the final episode of Survivor!! Top that! [;)] I am talking about "help" for those that will NEED help, isn't that what welfare is for? Do we get to pick and choose who we want to help? I am thinking it will mainly be people who have lost their jobs and either have no job, or a part-time job. "Welfare" is going to be an issue soon, for many people.

MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 7:05:08 PM)
{{{{{{Jo}}}}}} Thank you for posting!!! Merry Christmas to you, sweetheart!! You need to come post here more often, these people don't bite!! We have a lot of fun down here, we chat about politics and we have wild freaky parties, too! Bravo, for volunteering at the local soup kitchen. Thank you for sharing that they were running out of food, I think many people aren't aware of the dire straits many people are in. I just found out last week that all the leftover {still good} food is thrown away on Friday's at my school. The employee told me that at some schools they give the food away, but not at my school! I plan to make that one of my projects next year. We certainly can give the food to deserving needy students, employees/and or a food bank! If it is good enough to sell to students, it is good enough to be given away, a few hours later!!!! No, you didn't hijack the thread at all, you enhanced it!!!!! We should be our brother's keeper, and Jo you are doing a good job of it. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, dear lady!!

Lucylastic -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 7:06:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck My dear friend Mia... I came to say Merry Christmas. I don't usually participate here but I'll reply to your question as well. Over Thanksgiving I baked 20 pies and volunteered at my local Soup Kitchen/Food Bank. While I staffed a shift serving I was horrified to learn that they wouldn't need many volunteers to pack boxes since the Food Bank itself was running on near empty. It seems that with the economy more people than ever are not viable for welfare due to their previous incomes and are relying more and more on the Food Bank to get through the month. Which also goes to say that along with the economy more and more people can't afford to donate either. Please folks...if you can donate to your local Food Bank, not just during the holidays but throughout the year. I digress though... Sorry to hijack there for a moment but yes, I think that we are our brother's keepers... to those that truly need the help to get by for awhile. Given the way things have been lately who can truly say that they won't be one of those that need it at some point in the future whether they would expect to or not. It can happen to any one of us. I totally agree, Our food banks have been having a rough time lately too... ..people are finding themselves in need rather than being able to donate, its not a good time to be out of work.

MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 7:16:57 PM)
Lucy and Jo, think of all the hospitals, schools, and other businesses that are throwing away GOOD food every day??? Especially at a time when food banks are running out of food. We certainly are our brother's keeper, and I think many will be stepping up to do the job.

SDFemDom4cuck -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 7:48:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia {{{{{{Jo}}}}}} Thank you for posting!!! Merry Christmas to you, sweetheart!! You need to come post here more often, these people don't bite!! We have a lot of fun down here, we chat about politics and we have wild freaky parties, too! Bravo, for volunteering at the local soup kitchen. Thank you for sharing that they were running out of food, I think many people aren't aware of the dire straits many people are in. I just found out last week that all the leftover {still good} food is thrown away on Friday's at my school. The employee told me that at some schools they give the food away, but not at my school! I plan to make that one of my projects next year. We certainly can give the food to deserving needy students, employees/and or a food bank! If it is good enough to sell to students, it is good enough to be given away, a few hours later!!!! No, you didn't hijack the thread at all, you enhanced it!!!!! We should be our brother's keeper, and Jo you are doing a good job of it. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, dear lady!! At the very least I hope you can talk them into donating to the local food bank any left over food. I know that there are certain rules though for donations so you might want to check with the food bank itself and see if it's an option. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible though.

TheHeretic -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 7:49:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia I am talking about "help" for those that will NEED help, isn't that what welfare is for? Do we get to pick and choose who we want to help? I am thinking it will mainly be people who have lost their jobs and either have no job, or a part-time job. "Welfare" is going to be an issue soon, for many people. Define "help," Mia. This isn't the campaign season when you can expect to get away with spouting "hope and change" and figure that is enough. Where I run into the big glitch with welfare is when it puts people who aren't getting any assistance into direct competition with those who are. When subsidized rents in a community put decent housing out of reach for those who bust their ass for low wages, I'm not ok with that. The solution is NOT to put even more people on assistance. I'm full of crazy ideas, though, so here is one. I'm interested in what you think. First, we reduce the TANF lifetime assistance restriction from 60 months to 36. Then we put in another tier below. At this level, a recipient must acknowledge they are incompetent to manage their own life, and sign paperwork to that effect. They get minimal housing. No more "two to a bedroom" Section 8 luxury, the standard will be four, just like it was when I shared an apartment bedroom with three brothers. Single participants get to stay in open bay dorms. This housing will be subject to weekly/random inspections and search. Drug testing will be mandatory. No clean urine, no benefits. Dependents not pulling down a "B" average will be removed from the home and placed in a state run remedial boarding school. Work will be assigned, with wages split between the administering authority to offset costs, and a personal account that the participant has highly restricted access to, even after leaving the program. Job training will focus on building a strong work ethic of showing up on time (very early in the morning!), meeting a tough quota, and learning to just deal with bad days. Frankly, I think such an experience might provide the kick in the ass some people need. Just a note. I'm talking welfare, not things like SSI or the various other disability programs. We need to understand the difference between people who can't, and people who won't.

MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 8:13:49 PM)
Thank you Rich, for giving us such a detailed plan. I have few problems with most of your idea's, ESPECIALLY the drug testing. I don't agree with reducing the TANF lifetime assistance restriction to 36 months. Why reduce the lifetime assistance to 36 months, Rich? [;)] What IF someone follows all the rules that you have in place, but are not able to secure full-time or any employment after 36 months? Are they just put out on the streets, then?

TheHeretic -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 8:22:39 PM)
No, Mia, the 36 month time limit is for the current system. This is where you can go after that. If wards of the state, and that's what people are choosing if they enter such a program, don't like drug testing, they are free to leave the program any time they like. Personally, I'd have a much bigger issue with the random inspections of my living space than with the drug testing, but that goes with the territory of declaring yourself incompetent.

MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 8:33:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic No, Mia, the 36 month time limit is for the current system. This is where you can go after that. If wards of the state, and that's what people are choosing if they enter such a program, don't like drug testing, they are free to leave the program any time they like. Personally, I'd have a much bigger issue with the random inspections of my living space than with the drug testing, but that goes with the territory of declaring yourself incompetent. I just re-read your previous post. You consider "Section 8" a luxury? I have mixed feelings on that, I don't think you should be entitled to Section 8 housing forever. Are people allowed to stay in Section 8 housing indefinitely? I agree that people who are NOT getting assistance, should NOT have to compete for housing against those that are. Would you put families in the Dorm you mentioned? You realize many that qualify for Section 8 housing have dependents? Students, must have a B average, Rich? are you kidding me? I think you must want a Holiday spanking! Are you trying to make Section 8 benefits and welfare, more difficult than being in prison? I thought the idea was "assistance" not punishment. [;)]

TheHeretic -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 9:38:52 PM)
They can't just stay on Section 8 for a lifetime, it can be passed on to the next generation. It's a shame my local paper doesn't provide online content. They love the stories of Section 8 fraudsters living in 2400 sq. foot homes with 5 bedrooms and a pool. We get a lot of those stories. The program had a heavy impact in my community in recent years, including persuading us to move the fuck out of a once nice little neighborhood. Am I seeming a little cold-hearted for the season, Mia? No discussions of 'tough love' at Christmas? Part of the purpose of structuring, let's call it ,Tier Zero, is the idea that the bullshit is so intense, the regimen so restrictive, and the work so miserable, people are going to say "fuck this," and go get a real job. They can leave anytime they want, and apply for access to their account for legitimate expenses. They'll hit the workforce with a new/renewed appreciation for the blessings of prosperity. I have brothers, Mia, and there have been people who were brothers to me. Sometimes, along with a sandwich and a warm place to sleep, a hard motivational kick in the ass is also required.

MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 9:49:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic They can't just stay on Section 8 for a lifetime, it can be passed on to the next generation. It's a shame my local paper doesn't provide online content. They love the stories of Section 8 fraudsters living in 2400 sq. foot homes with 5 bedrooms and a pool. We get a lot of those stories. The program had a heavy impact in my community in recent years, including persuading us to move the fuck out of a once nice little neighborhood. Am I seeming a little cold-hearted for the season, Mia? No discussions of 'tough love' at Christmas? Part of the purpose of structuring, let's call it ,Tier Zero, is the idea that the bullshit is so intense, the regimen so restrictive, and the work so miserable, people are going to say "fuck this," and go get a real job. They can leave anytime they want, and apply for access to their account for legitimate expenses. They'll hit the workforce with a new/renewed appreciation for the blessings of prosperity. I have brothers, Mia, and there have been people who were brothers to me. Sometimes, along with a sandwich and a warm place to sleep, a hard motivational kick in the ass is also required. I totally "get" that there are a certain amount of "freeloaders" and "deadbeats" in the world, that have taken advantage of social programs like Section 8, welfare, food stamps,etc. I am sorry that this "elk" caused you to have to move. But Rich, does that mean people that have been affected by the economy being in the toilet should be denied resources and government assistance? The new welfare regulations are going to affect people that have never had to ask for assistance in their lives. THAT is what the article I am posting is about. Institute for Policy Studies: Why Welfare Reform Fails its Recession Test The new rules and regulations are going to hurt many people, that need the help and might need it for a long time. I guess they will have to suffer because of the scammers. [:(]

TheHeretic -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 10:14:03 PM)
I'm not saying they should be, Mia. Maybe it is much different where you live, but I said from the beginning that I'm in a welfare state. Of course people who are falling through the cracks should have a net. If we create a new bottom for that safety net, we can do better with the folks only beginning to fall. I still want to hear you define, "help," though. What are we talking about here? Paying people's mortgages for them so they don't lose a house they couldn't afford to begin with? Enough cash to keep the lights and heat on? Food stamps, and pantry vouchers? Knowing they can take a sick kid to a doctor? I'm good with all but the first.

MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 10:25:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I'm not saying they should be, Mia. Maybe it is much different where you live, but I said from the beginning that I'm in a welfare state. Of course people who are falling through the cracks should have a net. If we create a new bottom for that safety net, we can do better with the folks only beginning to fall. I still want to hear you define, "help," though. What are we talking about here? Paying people's mortgages for them so they don't lose a house they couldn't afford to begin with? Enough cash to keep the lights and heat on? Food stamps, and pantry vouchers? Knowing they can take a sick kid to a doctor? I'm good with all but the first. I may not be in a welfare state, but there are plenty of people in my area that get some form of government assistance. Did you read the article Rich? I am talking MAINLY about people that are or will be affected by the recession, that will not get unemployment forever, and will not qualify for welfare because of the new regulations. HELP in my book, means assisting people with giving them somewhere to live, and something to eat, while they are down on their luck. I don't mean supporting "able bodied" people for years and years on the government dole.

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