RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 10:42:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

The new welfare regulations are going to affect people that have never had to ask for assistance in their lives.
THAT is what the article I am posting is about.

Institute for Policy Studies: Why Welfare Reform Fails its Recession Test




These rules are hardly "new" Mia.  These are the Clinton reforms.  The same ones President Obama helped gut in the Illinois legislature.  Something similar happened in CA.  Other places went far in the other direction. 

I'm completely with you that people who need this temporary assistance should be able to get it. 





MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/20/2009 11:29:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

The new welfare regulations are going to affect people that have never had to ask for assistance in their lives.
THAT is what the article I am posting is about.

Institute for Policy Studies: Why Welfare Reform Fails its Recession Test




These rules are hardly "new" Mia.  These are the Clinton reforms.  The same ones President Obama helped gut in the Illinois legislature.  Something similar happened in CA.  Other places went far in the other direction. 

I'm completely with you that people who need this temporary assistance should be able to get it. 




I know they are not "new" Rich, I remember well when they were passed.
It was when my respect for Clinton went down.
I agree that we need more measures in place to check for "abuse" and "fraud", but
I never felt "right" about the welfare reforms Clinton passed.
Some of those chickens may soon be coming home to roost, and many that were happy
to get the "reforms" may be some of the ones that will need welfare the most.
I agree with everything stated in this article, ESPECIALLY this part.
 
"It's time to acknowledge that America's 1996 experiment with welfare reform was based on reckless assumptions about the economy, as well as a callous disregard for the realities of sustaining a family. We need a massive emergency relief package not only to fund new jobs but to repair the grievous holes in our national safety net. Fifty million people need help now -- not in three months or six months, but today."
Taken from Washington Post article "Why Welfare Reform Has Not Worked" Peter Edelman, Barbara Ehrenrich.


Thank you for the pleasant conversation.




rulemylife -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/21/2009 2:50:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Where I run into the big glitch with welfare is when it puts people who aren't getting any assistance into direct competition with those who are.  When subsidized rents in a community put decent housing out of reach for those who bust their ass for low wages, I'm not ok with that.  The solution is NOT to put even more people on assistance.

I'm full of crazy ideas, though, so here is one.  I'm interested in what you think.  First, we reduce the TANF lifetime assistance restriction from 60 months to 36.  Then we put in another tier below.  At this level, a recipient must acknowledge they are incompetent to manage their own life, and sign paperwork to that effect.  They get minimal housing.  No more "two to a bedroom" Section 8 luxury, the standard will be four, just like it was when I shared an apartment bedroom with three brothers.  Single participants get to stay in open bay dorms.  This housing will be subject to weekly/random inspections and search.  Drug testing will be mandatory.  No clean urine, no benefits.  Dependents not pulling down a "B" average will be removed from the home and placed in a state run remedial boarding school.  Work will be assigned, with wages split between the administering authority to offset costs, and a personal account that the participant has highly restricted access to, even after leaving the program.  Job training will focus on building a strong work ethic of showing up on time (very early in the morning!), meeting a tough quota, and learning to just deal with bad days.

Frankly, I think such an experience might provide the kick in the ass some people need.

Just a note.  I'm talking welfare, not things like SSI or the various other disability programs.  We need to understand the difference between people who can't, and people who won't.



Charles Dickens' A CHRISTMAS CAROL


This lunatic, in letting Scrooge's nephew out, had let two other people in.

They were portly gentlemen, pleasant to behold, and now stood, with their hats off, in Scrooge's office.  They had books and papers in their hands, and bowed to him.

"Scrooge and Marley's, I believe," said one of the gentlemen, referring to his list.  "Have I the pleasure of addressing Mr. Scrooge, or Mr. Marley?"

"Mr. Marley has been dead these seven years," Scrooge replied.  "He died seven years ago, this very night."

"We have no doubt his liberality is well represented by his surviving partner," said the gentleman, presenting his credentials.

It certainly was; for they had been two kindred spirits.  At the ominous word "liberality," Scrooge frowned, and shook his head, and handed the credentials back.

"At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge," said the gentleman, taking up a pen, "it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and Destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time.  Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."

"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.

"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

"And the Union workhouses?"  demanded Scrooge.  "Are they still in operation?"

"They are.  Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."

"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?"  said Scrooge.

"Both very busy, sir."

"Oh!  I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge.  "I'm very glad to hear it."

"Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude," returned the gentleman, "a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink and means of warmth.  We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices.  What shall I put you down for?"

"Nothing!" Scrooge replied.

"You wish to be anonymous?"

"I wish to be left alone," said Scrooge.  "Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer.  I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry.  I help to support the establishments I have mentioned -- they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there."

"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.  Besides -- excuse me -- I don't know that."

"But you might know it," observed the gentleman.

"It's not my business," Scrooge returned.  "It's enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people's.  Mine occupies me constantly.  Good afternoon, gentlemen!"




Lucylastic -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/21/2009 4:19:41 AM)

Hmmmmmmm
small government for everyone except those who are dependent then they have less rights than prisoners? Talk about draconian Rich.




tazzygirl -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/21/2009 6:01:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Lucy and Jo, think of all the hospitals, schools, and other businesses that are
throwing away GOOD food every day???
Especially at a time when food banks are running out of food.

We certainly are our brother's keeper, and I think many will be stepping up to do the job.


MzMia

The fault isnt always theirs. Many communities dont allow them to give them away, citing health code violations, the inability to keep the food at acceptable levels of heat or cold to prevent illnesses, ect.




MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/21/2009 6:47:35 PM)

rule, I think you are being a tad harsh on Rich.
Rich, stated he was tired of those that he feels are abusing the system,
and there are certainly some that are abusing the system.

I felt some of his "idea's" were a bit tough, but Rich is no scrooge!
He is a big sweetie pie.

[;)]
 
Here is something else I dug up about how welfare "reforms" will be affecting
those that will certainly be needing some help.
 
Welfare Aid Isn’t Growing as Economy Drops Off - NYTimes.com
 
If welfare aid isn't the answer to hope those facing economic hardships, where or
what is the safety net? 




slave4ladyohyes -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/21/2009 10:06:38 PM)

the economy is all about people purchasing many goods and services that they do not need




eyesopened -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/22/2009 5:43:23 AM)

Bush successfully blended religion with politics by the Faith-Based Initiative giving billions of tax dollars to religious organizations for social-services while cutting the budgets of governement social-services.  Have been trying for years to get anyone to tell me which organizations are getting my money and no one seems to know.  Evidently, social service help can only go to some Americans, not all.

I'm surprised the more vocal Atheists in our midst seem to have no problem with this.

http://usliberals.about.com/od/faithinpubliclife/a/Funds_Faith2.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/12/politics/main532793.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/12/politics/main532793.shtml


I posted the above in another thread and no one had comment.

I believe we need to be our brother's keeper if we are to have a society at all. 

I was on unemployment twice.  It sucked!  What was even more sucky was people's treatment of me.   Every government agency I contacted trated me like I was trying to pull some kind of scam.  Losing my job was bad enough but the attitudes of other people was even worse.  My ex-father-in-law called me lazy. He said as long as McDonald's was hiring, I should be working.  Well back then minimum wage was $5.00/hr.  or $200 gross. (IF one would be allowed to work 40 hrs a week!)  After taxes about $180.  I had two kids, daycare cost was $75 a week.  My rent was $425.  The math was simple, I could not afford to work at a minimum-wage job.  So few people understand this.  In addition, the $800 a month unemployement was too much money to qualify for any other kind of help, like reduced day-care costs, voucehers for heating/electric bills or anything else.  If not for my mom and dad, we would have been homeless on the street.




MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/22/2009 9:55:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23

Are we our brother's keeper?

We as individuals in a common society can make a choice.  Either we are in this for each other, or we are in this for ourselves.  When we choose to believe that we are in this for ourselves, we send a message to all of our brothers and sisters:  Every man for himself!  It's the law of the jungle, people say.  Sink or swim, hoist yourself up by your own bootstraps, every man is an island, etc., etc.  But what are the consequences? 

The consequence is crime.  Massive, rampant, all consuming crime and corruption.  When the rule becomes "I got mine, suckas!" then you can count on someone deciding that the easier way to beat the system is to cheat the system.  Degeneration, decline, and the collapse of a civilization are down that road.

But the real law of the jungle is this:  The strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack.  If we extend a hand to our brother who is struggling, we affirm that we are united in a common purpose, something far more noble and enduring than mere survival at any cost.  That is what separates a great nation from a fallen empire in collapse.

How are we going to take care of the thousands if not millions of people that may be needing that help real soon.


We are ingenious.  We will always find a way.  We've done it before, we can do it again.

Should people be able to get unemployment benefits for 3-5 years?

At some point that stops making sense, and people should be able to collect welfare.  Given the non-stop job searching that one has to do to continue to collect UI, I imagine some folks in small, rural towns have already exhausted every possibility in their area by this point.  Somewhere there is a guy whose log books has him applying for the same non-existent job at the only factory in town every week for months on end.



Great post Psychonaut.
One of the issues IS, will people be ABLE to get welfare when/if their unemployment benefits run out?
That may be more of an issue real soon, than even the health care bill.

Many people are not aware of the changes and restrictions in being able to get welfare, but many will soon
be made aware of them, when they try to get welfare and or/assistance.




TheHeretic -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/22/2009 8:24:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
I'm  hoping that the system doesn't get fixed, everything goes to hell in a handbasket, and we get a real socialist revolution out of this mess.




[sm=rofl.gif]

Trust me, Honaut, if we get a revolution, it won't be a socialist one. 




MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/22/2009 9:04:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
I'm  hoping that the system doesn't get fixed, everything goes to hell in a handbasket, and we get a real socialist revolution out of this mess.




[sm=rofl.gif]

Trust me, Honaut, if we get a revolution, it won't be a socialist one. 
 

Don't bet the farm Rich, not sure who will be the first one out of the gate.
The tea party group might be upset, but I would have to bet on those that are desperate.
Normally, desperate people will win out over those merely upset.
How does the song go? Freedom's just another word, for nothing left to lose?




TheHeretic -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/22/2009 10:08:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23

you fascists



Oh, I'm quite familiar with the theories, Honaut.  Raised on them, in fact.  Seeing how you choose to elevate the discussion, though, I don't see much hope of rational discourse on them.




TheHeretic -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/23/2009 6:57:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
peon.


Where did I insult you, Honaut?  You are the guy who goes straight to namecalling. 





MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/23/2009 7:18:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
peon.


Where did I insult you, Honaut?  You are the guy who goes straight to namecalling. 


Rich, you nailed the irony here.
I started this thread to wish "Happy Holidays" to EVERYONE that posted here.
I honestly enjoy and look forward to healthy debates--minus the personal attacks.

I think we all get worked up and heated at times, BUT it is more productive when you stick
to the topic, and don't sink to attacking the person.
 
Rich, you try to stick to the topic and that is one of the reasons I like you.
Those that insist on making personal remarks aimed at the poster, instead of focusing on what the poster is saying, are the type of people most of us want to avoid dealing with.
 
I am glad this happend on a "Happy Holidays" thread.
Maybe it will be a good example of how NOT to behave and expect intelligent debates.

I personally come here to laugh, share and debate in a healthy manner, not to hurl personal and nasty insults at people.
Rich, thank you for being one of the people that regularly post here that I can debate the issues with, minus childish insults and personal attacks.

"Happy Holidays" to everyone here that wants to make this a fun and productive place to exchange idea's, not a playground full of adults acting like mean spirited, ignorant, nasty bullies.

When someone starts name-calling I tend to think he has no points to make, can't defend himself in a reasonable manner, and is possibly unstable, mentally ill or just mean.
What can be learned or accomplished debating someone hurling curse words and personal insults?
I refuse to engage in this behavior, and will cease the debate, if I want to curse people out, I can find that in the street, I don't come here for THAT.

PEACE, HAPPY HOLIDAYS, and have fun debating without being mean-spirited, insulting, rude and/or NASTY!!!!!!! {I realize for some this is impossible, and I will not sink into the gutter with you, and will take the high road}.[;)] 




TheHeretic -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/23/2009 7:34:13 PM)

You should have left it at me being a big sweetie pie, Mia.  Now you are just being silly.  [:D]




MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/23/2009 8:35:13 PM)

Seriously Rich, do people really expect an intelligent exchange of idea's once they start hurling
personal insults?

Let me see, I want to have a serious exchange of idea's!
I know!  I will call you names and curse you out!

 [sm=idea.gif]
 
LOL
Merry Christmas to all!
 




TheHeretic -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/23/2009 8:59:28 PM)

It's about stopping the flow of words and ideas they don't like, Mia, sometimes by being deliberately obtuse, and sometimes because they really are that stupid.

There is nothing inherently wrong with good hair-pulling, eye-gouging, mudroll in the pit, but you need to bring something to make it interesting.




MzMia -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/23/2009 9:05:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

It's about stopping the flow of words and ideas they don't like, Mia, sometimes by being deliberately obtuse, and sometimes because they really are that stupid.

There is nothing inherently wrong with good hair-pulling, eye-gouging, mudroll in the pit, but you need to bring something to make it interesting.


Damn it Rich, that hair-pulling mudroll in the pit sounds like fun.
Let's get down and dirty around here next year, and bring something to make it interesting.
[;)]




InvisibleBlack -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/24/2009 11:23:03 AM)

I just wanted to say that in the few months I've been posting on these forums, I've hugely enjoyed reading everything you guys put out there. While there are moments of rudeness and name-calling, there are also a lot of intelligent, well thought out positions and arguements, and a lot of passion about what's right and what will work.

I appreciate you guys. All the best to every one of you.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.




Musicmystery -> RE: "Happy Holidays Mateys!!"/Am I My Brother's Keeper? (12/24/2009 11:45:16 AM)

A handful of posters are sometimes reasonable, sometimes arrogantly foolish. It's a mystery. I'm wondering if it has to do with the amount of alcohol consumed at the moment. Seriously. But who knows. People are people, and they all have their moments.

[sm=dunno.gif]




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