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RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/21/2009 10:14:04 PM   
MzMia


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At this point I mean, partisan or bi-partisan, however the shoe fits.
In the end, it does not seem to be about "the people", only politics.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/21/2009 10:17:28 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 2:24:04 AM   
tazzygirl


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hi MzMia

perhaps this may help

http://www.miamiherald.com/business/nation/story/1391687.html

Comparison of Senate, House health care bills

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 4:12:15 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline


WSJ Op-Ed:

quote:




Change Nobody Believes In



A bill so reckless that it has to be rammed through on a partisan vote on Christmas eve.


And tidings of comfort and joy from Harry Reid too. The Senate Majority Leader has decided that the last few days before Christmas are the opportune moment for a narrow majority of Democrats to stuff ObamaCare through the Senate to meet an arbitrary White House deadline. Barring some extraordinary reversal, it now seems as if they have the 60 votes they need to jump off this cliff, with one-seventh of the economy in tow.


Mr. Obama promised a new era of transparent good government, yet on Saturday morning Mr. Reid threw out the 2,100-page bill that the world's greatest deliberative body spent just 17 days debating and replaced it with a new "manager's amendment" that was stapled together in covert partisan negotiations. Democrats are barely even bothering to pretend to care what's in it, not that any Senator had the chance to digest it in the 38 hours before the first cloture vote at 1 a.m. this morning. After procedural motions that allow for no amendments, the final vote could come at 9 p.m. on December 24.

Even in World War I there was a Christmas truce.

The rushed, secretive way that a bill this destructive and unpopular is being forced on the country shows that "reform" has devolved into the raw exercise of political power for the single purpose of permanently expanding the American entitlement state. An increasing roll of leaders in health care and business are looking on aghast at a bill that is so large and convoluted that no one can truly understand it, as Finance Chairman Max Baucus admitted on the floor last week. The only goal is to ram it into law while the political window is still open, and clean up the mess later.

Full column here


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RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 5:44:16 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

the costs wont be felt for some time... unless you are going to.. say.. tanning beds.


Or unless you are old and on Medicare.

Or unless you are a Doctor working with the old.

Or unless you are currently receiving 'Cadillac' coverage either negotiated as a union member or under a contract.

None of those things affect me either. Unlike, apparently you, I'm not self centered about this at all. There is NO good coming from this Bill. It will not accomplish anything. It doesn't cover everyone. It will cost individuals more than than if they went out before its passed and simply purchased available coverage.

Only people and entities with agendas can rationalize there are any benefits.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 6:59:53 AM   
tazzygirl


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Again, that is your opinion, stated as fact, facts you do not have in evidence.

Congrats.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 7:36:48 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Again, that is your opinion, stated as fact, facts you do not have in evidence.

Congrats.


Everything merc said is true, and there is evidence.

To quote you: Read the Bill.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 7:37:23 AM   
tazzygirl


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I have. It does not support his position.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 7:40:41 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

the costs wont be felt for some time... unless you are going to.. say.. tanning beds.


Or unless you are old and on Medicare.

Or unless you are a Doctor working with the old.

Or unless you are currently receiving 'Cadillac' coverage either negotiated as a union member or under a contract.

None of those things affect me either. Unlike, apparently you, I'm not self centered about this at all. There is NO good coming from this Bill. It will not accomplish anything. It doesn't cover everyone. It will cost individuals more than than if they went out before its passed and simply purchased available coverage.

Only people and entities with agendas can rationalize there are any benefits.


Dont count on the tax on union plans remaining. The SEIU is far too influential in DC, Chicago, LA and NYC for it to survive. Union employees have by far the best employer provided health care plans and membership, which has fought tooth and nail against even $1 drug copays, is not going to sit still for a premium tax. One union's benefits are so good that many professionals with full time jobs take a part time job in that industry working just enough hours to qualify for health benefits.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 7:47:17 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
that is your opinion, stated as fact, facts you do not have in evidence.

I have. It does not support his position.


Your interpretation also must not support the NY Times position, you know - that right wing newspaper in NY. The specifics documented from both the House and the Senate Bills are the source of facts which confirmed my opinion. The NY Times documented those things I pointed out. It was the source of the information that you can't make a counter argument.

No universal coverage.
Huge cuts to Medicare
Increase living expense mandated
As much as a 40% co-pay cost for care

You would have know that if your agenda didn't prevent you from a fact based opinion. FACTS in evidence. Or is your insight deeper than the people and resources available to the NY Times?

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 7:51:25 AM   
tazzygirl


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Take willbe's advice, Merc. Stop listening to what people are telling you is in the bill, and find out for yourself.. unless you enjoy being told what you should know.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 8:01:58 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Take willbe's advice, Merc. Stop listening to what people are telling you is in the bill, and find out for yourself.. unless you enjoy being told what you should know.

I've have - and if you have and can point to the false reasoning behind the NY Times facts or how I view them; point to the specific page of the 2000 needing to be considered. Remember - in some parts (as you must know from reading it) contradict others. Which is why, instead of quoting the Bill's deliberate attempt to confuse, I quoted the NY Times.

However you've yet to address one of the most troubling issues for me. Why are there only 49 States now in the United States? Or was Nebraska's secession from the Constitutional requirements of Statehood collateral damage that couldn't be helped?

Setting this as an acceptable precedent for passing a Bill is something that should trouble everyone.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 8:10:44 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

However you've yet to address one of the most troubling issues for me. Why are there only 49 States now in the United States? Or was Nebraska's secession from the Constitutional requirements of Statehood collateral damage that couldn't be helped?


Last i heard, Nebraska was still a state.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 8:22:35 AM   
cuckoldmepls


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Actually, this healthcare plan will be a complete disaster for democrats in the next election. The majority of people not only oppose abortion according to the latest polls, but they also oppose having their tax payer dollars pay for abortions. On top of that, the bill fines people $4500 if they don't purchase insurance from a private insurer. The Senate version is not a public option, and the liberals despise it.

It's a shame too because this could have been a good plan, although it is unconstitutional (10th amendment), if they had been willing to eliminate all the flaws such as paying for abortions and illegal aliens. Not to mention all the other flaws in fine print.

In short, this should put the final nail in Obama's reelection bid, combined with a high unemployment rate, and another attempt to pass Amnesty. Thank god, as someone once said, Teddy Kennedy would have done less damage as President, than 40 years in the Senate, and luckily, Obama should only have 4 years.

Just saw an excerpt of a Katy Couric interview with Obama. My God, that guy gives interviewers an evil look every time they ask him a tough question. It reminds me of his election night appearance after he had won, and the look he gave America. I swear it was a look of  "Your @*#$% Now America."

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 8:30:44 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I've have - and if you have and can point to the false reasoning behind the NY Times facts or how I view them; point to the specific page of the 2000 needing to be considered. Remember - in some parts (as you must know from reading it) contradict others. Which is why, instead of quoting the Bill's deliberate attempt to confuse, I quoted the NY Times.


I wasted my time and energy with the original reform bill, doing all the footwork while you guys sat back and ate bon-bons. Put up or shut up, Merc.. as willbe is so fond of saying. My sources then came straight from the bill. Try that tactic. Some just may take you more seriously.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 8:39:23 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I've have - and if you have and can point to the false reasoning behind the NY Times facts or how I view them; point to the specific page of the 2000 needing to be considered. Remember - in some parts (as you must know from reading it) contradict others. Which is why, instead of quoting the Bill's deliberate attempt to confuse, I quoted the NY Times.


I wasted my time and energy with the original reform bill, doing all the footwork while you guys sat back and ate bon-bons. Put up or shut up, Merc.. as willbe is so fond of saying. My sources then came straight from the bill. Try that tactic. Some just may take you more seriously.


Sorry dear, your rants have rendered you impossible to take seriously.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 9:18:31 AM   
tazzygirl


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Again, your opinion, willbe... and not taken too seriously around here.

But,., just a hint... referring to the Medicare cuts...

Incredible Shrinking Benefits?

After celebrating the accomplishments of older Americans, the narrator gets straight to the scary stuff: "Congress plans to pay for health care reform by cutting $500 billion from Medicare." The ad doesn’t mention that the $500 billion is a gross figure that counts only proposed cuts while ignoring any increases, including a big increase the bill proposes in projected payments to doctors. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office has estimated that the House bill would result in "savings" of $219 billion after all increases and decreases are netted out. The House bill would trim projected increases in payments for hospitals, insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and others, including home health care providers and suppliers of motor-driven wheelchairs. But it also proposes what CBO estimates is a $245 billion increase in spending for doctors, by canceling a scheduled 21 percent cut in physician payments. None of the "savings" or "cuts" (whichever you prefer) come from reducing current or future benefit levels for seniors. AARP, in a "Myths versus Facts" rundown of what’s being said about the health care bills, contradicts the claim made by 60 Plus:

quote:

AARP: Fact: None of the health care reform proposals being considered by Congress would cut Medicare benefits or increase your out-of-pocket costs for Medicare services.


We can’t resist noting that Democrats are getting a taste of their own medicine here. Late in the 2008 campaign, Republican presidential nominee John McCain’s advisers spoke of holding down the rise in future Medicare costs to pay for part of his health care proposals. Although a McCain aide was quoted as saying no cuts were being proposed in benefit levels, the Obama campaign ran two ads falsely accusing McCain of proposing benefit cuts. One said McCain’s plan "means a 22 percent cut in benefits. … Nursing home care could suffer and so could your choice of doctor." The other said seniors would "receive fewer services, and get lower quality care." We called Obama’s claims against McCain "bogus" and "false" and also an example of "Senior Scare." The same now goes for 60 Plus’ claims against Obama’s plan.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/more-senior-scare/

On his Web site, the senator offers more detail about the Medicare savings proposals he opposes, saying: "These reductions include $120 billion to the Medicare Advantage program, $150 billion to providers including hospitals, hospice, and nursing homes, and $23 billion in unspecified decreases to be determined by an ‘Independent Medicare Advisory board.’ "

As we’ve written before, the reductions in the Medicare Advantage program could lead to a cut in the extra benefits that many of these beneficiaries receive — cuts valued at about $43 per month in 2019, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office. Seniors in Medicare Advantage, about 22 percent of those on Medicare or 10 million seniors, get coverage through private plans, and they often receive some bonus benefits, such as a gym membership or a reduced premium. They’re able to get these extras because Medicare pays extra — 14 percent more per beneficiary than it does for regular Medicare beneficiaries, and it’s that perceived overpayment that Democrats propose to eliminate. The CBO has estimated that the move would change the value of the extra benefits Medicare Advantage participants get, but they would not receive fewer benefits than the rest of seniors who aren’t on the Advantage plans. The bill does add some extras for Medicare beneficiaries, eliminating copays and deductibles for preventive services, for example.

Three seniors groups have come out in opposition to McCain’s amendment: AARP, the National Committee to Protect Social Security and Medicare and the Alliance for Retired Americans, which, like the other groups, said that the bill "does not cut Medicare benefits. With the expected rising costs of Medicare, the legislation slows the rate of the program’s growth without reducing benefits."

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/mccain-robocall-sounds-familiar/

To insist all the cuts to Medicare will affect only Physicians is extremely misleading.

Until the Senate votes and passes its own version, its too early to talk about whats in it. Too many variables.. too much can be changed last minute.. and too many trusting what others are telling us is in it.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 9:28:40 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I've have - and if you have and can point to the false reasoning behind the NY Times facts or how I view them; point to the specific page of the 2000 needing to be considered. Remember - in some parts (as you must know from reading it) contradict others. Which is why, instead of quoting the Bill's deliberate attempt to confuse, I quoted the NY Times.


I wasted my time and energy with the original reform bill, doing all the footwork while you guys sat back and ate bon-bons. Put up or shut up, Merc.. as willbe is so fond of saying. My sources then came straight from the bill. Try that tactic. Some just may take you more seriously.

Wow tazzzy so defeated? I did with back up references; not of the Bill as it existed or your best case interpretation but the facts as they stand with both the Senate and House Bills.

Your own post doesn't say any of the facts are wrong. You use the word "misleading"? How?

And why is it too early to talk about? Both Bills are done, approved, and only awaiting the next stage of pork additions. No variables are involved.

Cuts to Medicare will not only affect Physicians. I have no idea where you got that impression. It will affect everyone using it, selling to it, working in it and trying to get care based upon it. It will not affect them positively by anyone's accounting.

What's funny is that you belief in how the special interest groups interpret the Medicaid are gospel for you while any projected accounting falls under the "too many variables", "too much can be changed..." categories. Selective faith to say the least. Better put, your advice to "don't believe what you read" is only in those cases that the sources don't agree with you. Enlightening.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 9:32:05 AM   
tazzygirl


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I did back up my statement. Try reading a bit beyond your own words.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 9:40:09 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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Status: offline
Looks like you do ok if you elect a Dem named Nelson. Dwarfing the gifting to holdout Ben Nelson, Bill Nelson of Florida managed to get 800,000 seniors grandfathered from cuts to Medicare advantage.

Price tag? 30-40 Billion

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Senate Health-Care Measure Clears Crucial Test Vote - 12/22/2009 9:51:57 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Concessions are still coming, willbe, the final bill is not drafted. Tell me... do you have a star or not?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 40
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