bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 8:00:30 AM)

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/12/reid_bill_declares_future_cong_1.asp

what a stupid clause.   future congresses would  be "out of order" if repealing or changing the law.  WTF.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 8:37:28 AM)

Its worse than stupid, it is typical of the underhandedness and megalomania of the Dem party.




thornhappy -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 9:11:28 AM)

That doesn't refer to the whole reform bill - it refers to the Independent Medicare Advisory Board only.

And a nice insinuation that it really is a death panel. Weekly Standard at its best.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 9:20:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

That doesn't refer to the whole reform bill - it refers to the Independent Medicare Advisory Board only.

And a nice insinuation that it really is a death panel. Weekly Standard at its best.



And Arpig has some Everglades land he wants to sell you. QALY is rationing. It is the only way that costs can artificially be brought down outside of full blown price controls.




LadyEllen -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 9:34:04 AM)

There is already rationing!

Time and again on here I have read posts describing situations where insurance cover was withdrawn or amended, where policy excesses were raised beyond reason and where some conditions were not regarded as covered at all.

Yes, there will have to be rationing in any system - but the rationing in this new system will be based on something other than commercial interests and what can be gotten away with to protect and make profits as is the methodology of rationing otherwise in place.

I find it literally amazing that every other public common good is covered by public arrangements and this appears to be no issue, but that healthcare should be seen as something so far removed from the public common good that any proposal to provide it in the same way attracts such vehement opposition.

E




willbeurdaddy -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 9:43:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

There is already rationing!

Time and again on here I have read posts describing situations where insurance cover was withdrawn or amended, where policy excesses were raised beyond reason and where some conditions were not regarded as covered at all.

Yes, there will have to be rationing in any system - but the rationing in this new system will be based on something other than commercial interests and what can be gotten away with to protect and make profits as is the methodology of rationing otherwise in place.

I find it literally amazing that every other public common good is covered by public arrangements and this appears to be no issue, but that healthcare should be seen as something so far removed from the public common good that any proposal to provide it in the same way attracts such vehement opposition.

E


Since it doesnt meet the defintion of a public good, why would you be surprised?

A public good is one where consumption does not reduce availability to others, and no one can effectively be prohibited from using it. Health care is a private good.




tazzygirl -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 9:48:54 AM)

Hi Lady Ellen

Rationing... yes.. there is already.. and will continue to be more in the future.

A little background work will show that the first coinage of death panels was made by no other than the NY Times, back in 1977, when the passage of advanced directives were in full swing. Yet, they are now the industry standard, one of the first questions you are asked about when you are seeing a Dr, admitted to a hospital, seen in an ER or going in for surgery.

quote:

Change Social Values Regarding Cost-Inducing Activities
A. Encourage Adoption of "Living Wills"
The "Living Will" concept allows patients to legally require the cessation of the employment of
extraoridnary means to prolong life when there is irrefutable evidence that biological death is
imminent. The first such law was enacted in California in September 1966, and legislators in 16
other States sought to delineate rights for the terminally ill during that year. The statutes make
provision for a person to declare in advance what he would wish done if he should reach a moribund
condition and be incapable of expressing his wishes. It relieves the physician and/or
health facility of any liability. Prior to passage in California, 87 percent of persons polled there
thought that an incurably ill patient should ha the right to refuse life-prolonging medication.
Encouraging States to pass such a law or, more strongly, withholding Federal funds without
passage would serve to heighten public awareness of the use of such resources and would also
lower health spending when such wills are executed.
The strong response to the Karen Ann Quinlan case demonstrates that such encouragement
would result in some negative public reaction. Although the Catholic Church ruled that extraordinary
measures need not be employed, there is still religious resistance to this concept.
The cost-savings from a nationwide push toward "Living Wills" is likely to be enormous. Over
one-fifth of Medicare expenditures are for persons in their last year of life. Thus, in FY 1978, $4.9
billion will be spent for such persons and if just one-quarter of these expenditures were avoided
through adoption of "Living Wills," the savings under Medicare alone would amount to $1.2
billion. Additional Federal savings would accrue to Medicaid and the VA and Defense Department
health programs.


http://media.npr.org/assets/blogs/health/images/2009/11/Derzonmemo.pdf

Living wills, as you can see, are designed to give medical personel an indication of the patients desires beyond family and legal issues. Something to base the stoppage of heroic measures upon, allowing Physicians to determine when enough is enough, beyond the monetary and legal system.

This IS a form of rationing, determined by the person who is being "rationed" too... and something that was bitterly contested and fought against from the beginning. IF its a death panel, its one the patient actively sits upon and agrees too, even stipulating to the medical community their wishes and when to "stop".

I believe most people are expecting limitations, costs and waiting periods. For those who have no access to medical care at this time, its more than what they have. For those who have access, they are whining about having to wait. For those with money invested into these insurance companies, they are whining about how much money they will lose. Someone will always whine about something.

We have turned into a society of sneeches. Problem is, no one seems to remember who did and who didnt, and dont want to look at who is getting rich off the whole problem.




LadyEllen -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 9:50:53 AM)

Interesting definition.

So then the police is not a public good, since if someone calls the police out there may not be enough police to answer other calls and nuisance callers to the police may not be answered at all.

E




rulemylife -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 10:02:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


Since it doesnt meet the defintion of a public good, why would you be surprised?

A public good is one where consumption does not reduce availability to others, and no one can effectively be prohibited from using it. Health care is a private good.




Dictionary.com's 21st Century Lexicon


Main Entry:
  public good1Part of Speech:  nDefinition:  a good or service that is provided without profit for society collectively

Main Entry:
  public good2Part of Speech:  nDefinition:  the well-being of the general public










tazzygirl -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 10:06:45 AM)

your only part of the general public if you have money... according to the political definition at least.




pahunkboy -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 10:15:50 AM)

reform is flawed - if you consider we don't cure any thing.  Our system is built on maximizing pills needed. Not in deleting any need for pills whatsoever.   so unless the over all thrust of society is changed- it is like pissing in the wind.




popeye1250 -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 10:16:57 AM)

That's easy to get around, just declare it unconstitutional or just say, "oops, they made a mistake when they wrote this bill, "delete."




tazzygirl -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 10:23:04 AM)

LOL.. like the Amtrak clause! talk about a stupid mistake.




popeye1250 -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 11:07:50 AM)

Yeah, or like that coal thing Clinton did in Utah to "pay back" political donors in Indonesia by increasing the value of their coal.
When a new president takes office he is not obligated to follow the wishes or policies of past presidents although with Obama you'd think that Bush is hiding out in the W.H. basement.

"Those were President .......'s policies, they're not MY policies."




tazzygirl -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 11:34:41 AM)

I dont believe Bush is hiding in the WH. I do believe Obama had a standard set for him when he entered his position... the wheel was in motion.. he either had to hit the hand brake or keep going.




popeye1250 -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 11:48:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I dont believe Bush is hiding in the WH. I do believe Obama had a standard set for him when he entered his position... the wheel was in motion.. he either had to hit the hand brake or keep going.


He should have hit the breaks. Our govt. shouldn't be bailing out large corporations. The FDIC is there to protect the Depositors not the stockholders of big banks. Let them go through the orderly bankruptcy process, that's exactly why we have those laws in place!
Add to that Brokerage houses, Auto manufacturers, and big Insurance cos.
I expected Bush to do something foolish like that not Obama and he's a "Lawyer?" He's surrounded himself with exactly the wrong kind of people for the job, lawyers, academics, bankers, brokers!
*He's* the president now, he doesn't have to "follow in someone else's footsteps." Or continue a former president's policies.




tazzygirl -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 11:51:53 AM)

I could not agree with you more. At least bankruptcy would have forced a whole lot of changes in bonuses, payrolls and benefits, along with how some of these companies were previously ran.

I always wanted to see what Iococa would have done... lol.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 2:01:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Interesting definition.

So then the police is not a public good, since if someone calls the police out there may not be enough police to answer other calls and nuisance callers to the police may not be answered at all.

E


Its the standard definition in economics.

Police and fire are classified as public goods. Their potential for rivalry is extremely limited but they are subject to free riding. Anarcho-capitalists argue that there are no public goods other than easily accessible natural resources (air, water), but their views are far from mainstream.




pahunkboy -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 2:20:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I could not agree with you more. At least bankruptcy would have forced a whole lot of changes in bonuses, payrolls and benefits, along with how some of these companies were previously ran.

I always wanted to see what Iococa would have done... lol.


For sure.   But then goldman saches revolving door to washington - makes me think the government works for them, not us.




Arpig -> RE: bizzare med law cant be repealed?? (12/22/2009 7:46:07 PM)

quote:

Its the standard definition in economics.
I may be wrong, but I think the term was used in the sense of "Public interest" or "public well-being", not the economic sense of a good as a commodity. Otherwise, the original statement makes very little sense. And if I am wrong about that, then Wilbeur is 100% correct as to the definition in economic terms.




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