RE: why do we trust (Full Version)

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cpK69 -> RE: why do we trust (12/22/2009 8:16:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: osf



there's also the salad bar


Are you suggesting I rule over cucumbers?

They seem to have minds of their own.

Off to work, now; no rest for the wicked.

Kim




Icarys -> RE: why do we trust (12/22/2009 8:23:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2


its a funny one for me. i think trust used to be such a massive issue for me that it completely got in the way of every relationship i attempted. at some point in the recent past i must have turned it around in my head, but i dont remember when that was.

now i want to trust, completely. so i do.

i think because ive faced my fears on this one so many times and survived i dont see it as such a big issue for me anymore.

to challenge it even further i head for TPE's - that pushes it even further for me. i think i have a kink with trust - is there one, there must be - theres a kink for just about everything else. [:D]

Nice post.

I think people tend to use the trust issues in negative ways..Always looking for reasons not to..Which is very convenient because it allows them a justification for the negativity..Before long you let it get out of control then before you know it..you can see bad in anything and everyone. Nothing more than excuses backed by irrational fears in most cases.

Sounds to me like you've learned to face those fears a little. What do you have to lose? I'm sure the drama queens and nay sayers will find doom and gloom somewhere, somehow. That's their choice..It's everyone's choice.

One of my favorite movies had a line in it..A simple one and maybe a little cheesy but I like the movie and the line.

Shawshank redemption.."Get busy living or get busy dieing"  Simple but it sums up things for me where fears are present and pushing issues to the forefront.







Justme696 -> RE: why do we trust (12/22/2009 11:06:13 PM)

quote:

I think people tend to use the trust issues in negative ways..Always looking for reasons not to..Which is very convenient because it allows them a justification for the negativity


when trust is broken...it is negative.
When it happens more then once.....you don't trust anymore.
doesn't sound so weird to me.

if you cut yourself once..you use the knife again. If you cut a finger of...you don't use a knife a much longer time. But in time you might start use it again.




KnightofMists -> RE: why do we trust (12/23/2009 7:40:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: osf
to me trust is an attitude not a behavior, you can't see someones trust you have to take them at their word




I see trust neither as an attitude nor a behavior. But simply as a decision individuals make based on there own individuals approach which conveys an attitude in relating with people and manifests itself into specific behaviors. Ones attitude/behavior in relationships is by a result of their approach/decisisons of trust.

At one end of the spectrum you have the individual that trust no one. There attitude and behaviors in relating with other individuals is going to be significantly different than the individual who gives trust unless the other person gives reason for otherwise.







osf -> RE: why do we trust (12/23/2009 7:50:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


quote:

ORIGINAL: osf
to me trust is an attitude not a behavior, you can't see someones trust you have to take them at their word




I see trust neither as an attitude nor a behavior. But simply as a decision individuals make based on there own individuals approach which conveys an attitude in relating with people and manifests itself into specific behaviors. Ones attitude/behavior in relationships is by a result of their approach/decisisons of trust.

At one end of the spectrum you have the individual that trust no one. There attitude and behaviors in relating with other individuals is going to be significantly different than the individual who gives trust unless the other person gives reason for otherwise.







i think that some of the things we feel are choices/decisions come from a deeper level and as they percolate up through our conscious mind in order to rationalize them we believe we've made a free choice




KnightofMists -> RE: why do we trust (12/23/2009 7:55:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: osf

i think that some of the things we feel are choices/decisions come from a deeper level and as they percolate up through our conscious mind in order to rationalize them we believe we've made a free choice




No choice is free... there are always a consequence to them. However.. often times people
regard their actions has having no choice and as such removing themselves from the responsibility of the consequences.




osf -> RE: why do we trust (12/23/2009 8:04:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


quote:

ORIGINAL: osf

i think that some of the things we feel are choices/decisions come from a deeper level and as they percolate up through our conscious mind in order to rationalize them we believe we've made a free choice




No choice is free... there are always a consequence to them. However.. often times people
regard their actions has having no choice and as such removing themselves from the responsibility of the consequences.


you always have the choice to act or not act on your choices

a choice is not an action




KnightofMists -> RE: why do we trust (12/23/2009 8:07:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: osf


you always have the choice to act or not act on your choices

a choice is not an action



even the choice not to act.. is an action. I can walk.. or stand still... even though there is no movement... I am taking action to hold myself still.




osf -> RE: why do we trust (12/23/2009 8:11:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


quote:

ORIGINAL: osf


you always have the choice to act or not act on your choices

a choice is not an action



even the choice not to act.. is an action. I can walk.. or stand still... even though there is no movement... I am taking action to hold myself still.


you've never had second thoughts and changed your mind?

i'm not in jail because of changes of mind




KnightofMists -> RE: why do we trust (12/23/2009 8:22:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: osf


you've never had second thoughts and changed your mind?

i'm not in jail because of changes of mind


The mind is full of thoughts and emotions each and every day. They can drift through the mind like a river flows along it's banks. But every now and again... we reach in a grab a cup of water or hold on to a thought or emotion... in this action we are making a choice.

Being able to meditate and watch the thoughts and emotions flow like a river and not reach in is a skill that takes many years to Master.... and few ever do.





osf -> RE: why do we trust (12/23/2009 8:24:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


quote:

ORIGINAL: osf


you've never had second thoughts and changed your mind?

i'm not in jail because of changes of mind


The mind is full of thoughts and emotions each and every day. They can drift through the mind like a river flows along it's banks. But every now and again... we reach in a grab a cup of water or hold on to a thought or emotion... in this action we are making a choice.

Being able to meditate and watch the thoughts and emotions flow like a river and not reach in is a skill that takes many years to Master.... and few ever do.




a great move quip, do you think about the things you think about




Icarys -> RE: why do we trust (12/23/2009 4:17:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

I think people tend to use the trust issues in negative ways..Always looking for reasons not to..Which is very convenient because it allows them a justification for the negativity


when trust is broken...it is negative.
When it happens more then once.....you don't trust anymore.
doesn't sound so weird to me.

if you cut yourself once..you use the knife again. If you cut a finger of...you don't use a knife a much longer time. But in time you might start use it again.

Your talking about trust that has been given and then broken..I'm talking about the decision to trust prior to relationships forming. As in allowing a person to come into your life to begin with..when there aren't necessarily reasons not to trust that person.




vincentML -> RE: why do we trust (12/24/2009 6:36:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: osf




i think that some of the things we feel are choices/decisions come from a deeper level and as they percolate up through our conscious mind in order to rationalize them we believe we've made a free choice



A deeper level ? Very possible. Could it be genes? We are social creatures. We hunger for relationships. Hunter/gatherer nomadic groups and all that was needed for survival. If it is an inborn trait in most (big if) maybe the corollary question is: How can we battle our nature and avoid being fooled and how do some succeed? Fool me twice shame on me. But most (?) keep laying out their hearts or falling for each new scam. Thinking Nigeria. Just wondering.





osf -> RE: why do we trust (12/24/2009 7:09:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: osf




i think that some of the things we feel are choices/decisions come from a deeper level and as they percolate up through our conscious mind in order to rationalize them we believe we've made a free choice



A deeper level ? Very possible. Could it be genes? We are social creatures. We hunger for relationships. Hunter/gatherer nomadic groups and all that was needed for survival. If it is an inborn trait in most (big if) maybe the corollary question is: How can we battle our nature and avoid being fooled and how do some succeed? Fool me twice shame on me. But most (?) keep laying out their hearts or falling for each new scam. Thinking Nigeria. Just wondering.




above our primitive brain we have more recently developed faculties to analyze our feelings and urges and say no i won't act on those thoughts

now if only i could get rid of my compelling desire to abuse women




Justme696 -> RE: why do we trust (12/24/2009 8:23:18 AM)

but the "prior" is often influenced because of thinsg that happened in the past.
It is indeed not fair to judge "a new"person based on issues of the past.
But that is how we often work....we learn and try to prevent things to happen again.




Chrisincuffs -> RE: why do we trust (12/24/2009 8:59:55 AM)

This is a really interesting subject for me as I'm an untrusting person in general. I however trust my Master that is the reason that he is my Master. Do I trust that he'll never hurt my feelings? hell no, we are not perfect. NOBODY IS PERFECT that is the only idea anyone can trust no matter what. I do trust that my Master will never intentionally mess with my head or mess with my heart. My Master will never make a command or request that would affect my family or my job. My master is strict and his punishments can be severe, but I trust in my own dedication and trust that he is the best Master for me.




LadyAngelika -> RE: why do we trust (12/24/2009 9:05:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

but the "prior" is often influenced because of thinsg that happened in the past.
It is indeed not fair to judge "a new"person based on issues of the past.
But that is how we often work....we learn and try to prevent things to happen again.


There is a balance to be had here.

First off, I believe that my life is more harmonious because in general, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are being honest with me. Often, just the fact that I approach them with trust, and in some cases inform them that I am trusting them, will make them act more responsibly. On the other hand, this might seem like an open door for scammers to take advantage of me. But to this, I've built up quite a bit of wisdom and instinct. I can weed out a bunch. Not all, but a bunch.

Though I give a baseline of trust, I don't leave myself wide open. More trust can be earned with time. For example, the amount of trust someone has to earn to be let into my house is very different from the level of trust to have a copy of my house keys. But they are both forms of trust.

Now as Justme696 says, the past will influence the future. He's absolutely right. Until a few years ago, I didn't know what it was like to have someone cheat on me. Until that relationship, I didn't even take into consideration that it could happen to me. I was perhaps naive but at the same time, I wasn't burdened with that worry. Ignorance can be bliss.

When this event happened, I felt a whole lot of things for the first time. Doubt about myself for a while, though I got over that part rather rapidly. But most importantly, I had never met someone so close to me who had so literally been two-faced about something. I was apparently a woman like none he had ever met before, a breath of fresh air with my confident, dominant nature. Yet he reverted back to the psychologically unstable meek and manipulative girl he had an on again off again relationship with over the years. That hit me like a ton of bricks. I could not believe that I let someone like him get so close to me. That is when I started doubting my judgement. That is a very scary feeling to go through as you, at least it was for me, as I've always prided myself on being an excellent judge of character. I felt like I wasn't me anymore. I felt like life was playing a cruel joke on me. That took a very long time to get over.

I recently had a flashback of this with a trust issue with someone, many similarities to the initial event, though we weren't in a relationship, just getting to know one another. Many of those feelings resurfaced and all those feelings came back again, not as strong, but pretty strong, stronger than I expected, which is making me think that I might never go back to the way I was before the initial cheating event. What has happened to me has left me scared somewhat. There is nothing I can do to change that.

I'm not big into self-help or motivational books, but one book that was given to me about 10 years ago really gave an excellent perspective. It is Don Miguel Ruiz's Mastery of Love. He talks about two tracks, the track of love and the track of fear.

When we start doubting our judgement or live in the track of fear, we start doing what many would call hypervigilence. That means, we are on our guard. That is normal after we go through shock, but the idea is that we get through this as it never serves us well. Hypervigilence is one of the symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. It isn't healthy and when we are living on the track of fear, we can't open ourselves to receiving love. We can't be in healthy relationships when we are in this state. To a certain degree, I think the man who cheated on me was living on a track of fear and could not see the harmonious possibilities or our relationship.

However, it is possible to get through all of this but still pull out of it some lessons learned. For example, in my case, I learned to look for signs. I can keep an eye out, not be so naive, but still start from a place of trust. Does this mean that I won't have someone cheat on me again? Nope. Life doesn't come with that guarantee. But if I keep living on the track of fear, I might totally miss out on the opportunity to have a wonderful relationship with a man worthy of my trust.

I prefer to live my life on the track of love, even if that means that I'm leaving myself open to potential hurt. Scary? You bet! But what else am I to do? Live in fear? Not in my character.

- LA




vincentML -> RE: why do we trust (12/24/2009 10:48:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: osf


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: osf




i think that some of the things we feel are choices/decisions come from a deeper level and as they percolate up through our conscious mind in order to rationalize them we believe we've made a free choice



A deeper level ? Very possible. Could it be genes? We are social creatures. We hunger for relationships. Hunter/gatherer nomadic groups and all that was needed for survival. If it is an inborn trait in most (big if) maybe the corollary question is: How can we battle our nature and avoid being fooled and how do some succeed? Fool me twice shame on me. But most (?) keep laying out their hearts or falling for each new scam. Thinking Nigeria. Just wondering.




above our primitive brain we have more recently developed faculties to analyze our feelings and urges and say no i won't act on those thoughts

now if only i could get rid of my compelling desire to abuse women


I wonder if our brains are really more developed than our hunter ancestors, that their brains were primative, and if our genes are all that much different. But I do agree we have developed superior facilites as perhaps a result of more complex socialization.

Reminds me of the GEICO insurance ads that appear on US television where the principles are cavemen dressed in contemporary garb and engaged in modern activities like bowling or going through the airport. The joke is they are invariably astonished and pissed when confronted in one way or another by the slogan, "So easy a caveman can do it."

We have layers of social structure that relate to inhibitions and signals of unacceptable behaviors that guide us. But many (?) seem to lack receptors for those signals and more easily fall into unhappy circumstances much like Pinoccio before he became a real boy.




osf -> RE: why do we trust (12/24/2009 10:54:54 AM)

quote:

I wonder if our brains are really more developed than our hunter ancestors, that their brains were primative, and if our genes are all that much different. But I do agree we have developed superior facilites as perhaps a result of more complex socialization.


agree

would an Sumerian child brought through time to today and raised be any different than any other child

i think we are following a dual evolutionary path , social/mental and physical




Icarys -> RE: why do we trust (12/24/2009 12:37:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

but the "prior" is often influenced because of thinsg that happened in the past.
It is indeed not fair to judge "a new"person based on issues of the past.
But that is how we often work....we learn and try to prevent things to happen again.


I know your trying to tie the two together but it's not working. You replied to me based on something that had nothing to do with what I had said earlier.

No that's how you choose to be..I choose differently. We are not all the same. It's my experience that when you do things like you have said, it often leads to the end of a relationship.




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