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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

A loaf of bread with out HFCS is a rare thing. I am talking whole wheat.   Not refined and processed.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl



Thank you! Im not happy with these bills, but they are a step in the right direction. I learned long ago, if you listen to both sides, you are more likely to come up with the true root to any debate. And, in order to gain, sometimes you have to give. I would prefer, as Arpig said, a single payer system... but i dont think i can hold my breath that long in a capitalist society. That will take time. Baby steps... it will come.

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ORIGINAL: shannie

Under the guise of "healthcare reform," it's proposed that the federal government has the right to force every American to buy a corporate product.  Someone's finally asking, "Under what authority?"

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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126148236683801411.html?mod=article-outset-box

Sen. John Ensign (R., Nev.) raised a point of order Tuesday against the bill, arguing that the Constitution doesn't give Congress latitude to force Americans to buy health coverage, as both the House and Senate bills do. "What's next?" Mr. Ensign said. "Will we consider legislation in the future requiring every American to buy a car? Will we consider legislation in the future requiring every American to buy a house?" Mr. Ensign isn't expected to succeed. But the effort dramatizes a criticism raised by Republicans and conservative activists. Under the Senate and House bills, Americans who don't receive health coverage through their employers must buy insurance if they can afford it.

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ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

ORIGINAL: shannie

Under the guise of "healthcare reform," it's proposed that the federal government has the right to force every American to buy a corporate product.  Someone's finally asking, "Under what authority?"

quote:


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126148236683801411.html?mod=article-outset-box

Sen. John Ensign (R., Nev.) raised a point of order Tuesday against the bill, arguing that the Constitution doesn't give Congress latitude to force Americans to buy health coverage, as both the House and Senate bills do. "What's next?" Mr. Ensign said. "Will we consider legislation in the future requiring every American to buy a car? Will we consider legislation in the future requiring every American to buy a house?" Mr. Ensign isn't expected to succeed. But the effort dramatizes a criticism raised by Republicans and conservative activists. Under the Senate and House bills, Americans who don't receive health coverage through their employers must buy insurance if they can afford it.

No, its not Constitutional. (imho)

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

I'm with you on this one Panda, I suspect that this emasculated and basically worthless bill, once passed will take the sails out of reform for another 30 years.

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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
A loaf of bread with out HFCS is a rare thing. I am talking whole wheat.   Not refined and processed.

I bake a loaf of whole wheat sourdough bread twice a week. Absolutely the best bread I've ever eaten in my life. Pure whole wheat flour, a couple of tablespoons of honey, a couple of tablespoons of olive oil, that's it. There are always options.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

And this goes right to the heart of the whole issue. The only value of this bill - the absolute only remotely valid reason for passing  this hideous monstrosity - is the expectation that it will be an incremental law, a foundation upon which to build a better system.

But why does anyone expect that to happen? Not singling you out, Tazzy, but just a general question to everyone who thinks this means we've turned the corner and now we'll gradually evolve this utterly worthless law into a true national health care system  - why do you think that will happen? How do you think that will work? What would be the sequence of events that will result in that, and why do you think it's likely that it will happen? Because I absolutely do not see it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Over the weekend I'm sending e-mails to both of my Senators (democrats both) explaining why i will never vote for either of them again, and in fact probably never vote democrat again, just as I already refuse to ever vote republican again. If the democrats aren't able to deliver on this, what use are they to me? Why should I ever vote for them if they can't (or won't) represent my interests?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl



Thank you! Im not happy with these bills, but they are a step in the right direction. I learned long ago, if you listen to both sides, you are more likely to come up with the true root to any debate. And, in order to gain, sometimes you have to give. I would prefer, as Arpig said, a single payer system... but i dont think i can hold my breath that long in a capitalist society. That will take time. Baby steps... it will come.

And this goes right to the heart of the whole issue. The only value of this bill - the absolute only remotely valid reason for passing  this hideous monstrosity - is the expectation that it will be an incremental law, a foundation upon which to build a better system.

But why does anyone expect that to happen? Not singling you out, Tazzy, but just a general question to everyone who thinks this means we've turned the corner and now we'll gradually evolve this utterly worthless law into a true national health care system  - why do you think that will happen? How do you think that will work? What would be the sequence of events that will result in that, and why do you think it's likely that it will happen? Because I absolutely do not see it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl



Thank you! Im not happy with these bills, but they are a step in the right direction. I learned long ago, if you listen to both sides, you are more likely to come up with the true root to any debate. And, in order to gain, sometimes you have to give. I would prefer, as Arpig said, a single payer system... but i dont think i can hold my breath that long in a capitalist society. That will take time. Baby steps... it will come.

And this goes right to the heart of the whole issue. The only value of this bill - the absolute only remotely valid reason for passing  this hideous monstrosity - is the expectation that it will be an incremental law, a foundation upon which to build a better system.

But why does anyone expect that to happen? Not singling you out, Tazzy, but just a general question to everyone who thinks this means we've turned the corner and now we'll gradually evolve this utterly worthless law into a true national health care system  - why do you think that will happen? How do you think that will work? What would be the sequence of events that will result in that, and why do you think it's likely that it will happen? Because I absolutely do not see it.

This is something that has the republicans very worried and up in arms over... enough to pray to god over on television...

This is something the insurance companies, drug companies, and insundry other corporate lobbyists have been fighting tooth and nail to prevent... to the tune of over a million dollars a day.

Public option isnt dead... but i dont hold out any hope for that. Its enough, for now, that the industries who have made the most money are worried about health care reform.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Just the ability to prevent eliminating people from the "haves: for pre-existing conditions is a huge step.

The "exchange" in whatever form it takes, will also be a huge step. Im curious as well to the outcome of this process.

While everyone is complaining about what it doesnt contain (and make no mistake, its not what i want either) i would rather look at what it does contain, and the potentials that may give for more in the future.

Many of these arguments were the same used for SS and Medicare... and while neither of those systems are perfect, they still work.

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I had such hopes for something that would cover people when they need a doctor, not when they can afford the bills.

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But while the insurance companies have to offer a certain minimum coverage, they can charge whatever the fuck they want for it...and you are legally required to pay it.

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But while the insurance companies have to offer a certain minimum coverage, they can charge whatever the fuck they want for it...and you are legally required to pay it. This smacks of a perfect setup for price-fixing to me, there won't be any real competition in the form of lower prices (well maybe at first there will) but I fully expect to see insurance costs go through the roof once you are all required by law to pay whatever they want to charge.