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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/24/2009 1:30:04 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

We should give up trying to stop them and instead adopt a new policy based upon the old MAD policy.



Given the Muslim willingness to die for a cause, is your suggestion workable ? I think the only answer, if talks fail, is to destroy the facilities.

A very good point. Whatever their other faults were, the soviets were rationalists rather than people who are expecting to receive a few virgins in heaven if they blow themselves up along with a few of Allah's enemies. This is part of the reason why negotiations with Iran keep failing miserably in the first place, isn't it? They know that they're right, and they aren't going to negotiate with infidels.


Their unwillingness to negotiate with us might have to do with their distrust of us after we toppled their government and replaced it with the Shah and since we have troops now on both of their borders. If I recall,they offered us some assistance when we were prepared to attack Afghanistan. Did Bush miss an opportunity then?

I read the younger cohorts hold us and our materialist ways in high regard.

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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/24/2009 1:49:08 PM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		The Russians do not want to attack Iraq and they would discourage Iran attacking anyone. The Russians are interested in engaging in disarmament talks with the United States right now.

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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/24/2009 2:51:11 PM   
starshineowned


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Status: offline 		Greetings..

I'm not offering a new justification. That is my personal belief since the onset of us entering Iraq. Wars are usually for many reasons and not a soul purpose, and ya know were just not privy to all those reasons or who all is really involved in such matters.

To fight in a area it is always best to know that area. Soldiers now become trainers later. Would we be better off knowing tatics now they use or find out when we do have to enter that region to deal with halting nuclear issues?

Unless you are suggesting that we could simply do airstrikes alone, take out their known at the time nuclear areas, and just think they will throw their hands up and say okay were done and not going to move troops around?

Please don't insinuate that my post prior was only dismissing their sacrifices for this one reason. What I said is I have always thought it was for more reasons like this amongst many others besides just oil for greed theory which is no more proven than my own take on it.

starshine


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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/24/2009 3:21:32 PM   
Kirata


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This may be a moment to reflect on the shell game that Saddam played, for the attention and leverage it garnered him among his neighbors (until it became the wrong kind of attention, which turned out to be for no reason).

K.

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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/24/2009 4:14:32 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

We should give up trying to stop them and instead adopt a new policy based upon the old MAD policy.



Given the Muslim willingness to die for a cause, is your suggestion workable ? I think the only answer, if talks fail, is to destroy the facilities.

A very good point. Whatever their other faults were, the soviets were rationalists rather than people who are expecting to receive a few virgins in heaven if they blow themselves up along with a few of Allah's enemies. This is part of the reason why negotiations with Iran keep failing miserably in the first place, isn't it? They know that they're right, and they aren't going to negotiate with infidels.


Their unwillingness to negotiate with us might have to do with their distrust of us after we toppled their government and replaced it with the Shah and since we have troops now on both of their borders. If I recall,they offered us some assistance when we were prepared to attack Afghanistan. Did Bush miss an opportunity then?

I read the younger cohorts hold us and our materialist ways in high regard.

Very true. I was forgetting that the CIA had switched Mossadeq for the Shah.
You're certainly dead right that the theocrats are a tiny minority in a country which (thanks to the war with Iraq) has the world's biggest generation gap. Leave them long enough to let the last few old farts left over from the revolution die off, and a very progressive state by gulf standards might emerge, as they can hardly reinstate the former monarchy.
Bush definitely missed an opportunity then. That whole "Axis of Evil" routine of his did him no favours at all in dealing with them.

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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/24/2009 4:48:08 PM   
Silence8


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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/24/2009 5:51:14 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		The U.S. needs to take a pass on this one and let our European allies and Israel handle it.
They can have Spain lead the assault.

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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/25/2009 12:33:33 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

The U.S. needs to take a pass on this one and let our European allies and Israel handle it.
They can have Spain lead the assault.

What would be in it for Europe?

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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/25/2009 6:31:09 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

While I seriously dislike Marc2b's general strategy, there is no denying that it worked for 40 some odd years with the Russians...and Stalin was as insane as they come.


I don't like my strategy either but it's the only one I can see that has a chance of working. Unless we are prepared to wage war on Iran and impose a new government; Iran will sooner or later get the bomb. The only real strategy then is to make sure they understand that they're playing with the big boys now - and the horrific consequences that can result if they don't think things through very carefully.

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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/25/2009 6:37:30 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

You say the talk or bomb strategy is flawed and then you propose sending warning missles into Tehran. What began at Guernica did not end at Guernica, I'm afraid. Bombing civilian populations for warning? I take it that was a throw away line. Wouldn't that surely be the beginning of a war?


No, I'm not seriously proposing sending a missle into downtown Tehran. My point is that we want to make it clear to the Mullahs that we can reach out and touch them and that we can do so easily. I am not advocating bombing civilian populations but really, don't you think that an unarmed missle sent crashing into their parliament building (whatever they call it) would make an impression?

Edited to correct a very big oops.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 12/25/2009 7:36:21 PM >

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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/25/2009 6:48:52 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Given the Muslim willingness to die for a cause, is your suggestion workable ? I think the only answer, if talks fail, is to destroy the facilities.


The Iranian government seems to be composed mostly of fanatics but the people much less so. Hell, the threat of nuclear annihilation resulting from the governments stidency might just be enough to spur the population to action.

And, who knows, the thought of all they know and hold dear being obliterated make be enough to make even the Mullahs think twice.

It's by no means a perfect strategy but really, what else is there? Bombing their facilities creates a temporary setback at most (assuming it doesn't lead to all out war). Facilities can be rebuilt and you can never be sure you got them all anyway. So, if we are not prepared to occupy Iran and impose a new government, then the only option is to scare the fucking bejezzus out of them. Who knows, it might just make them take negotiation more seriously.



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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/25/2009 6:50:43 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Just suppose we followed Marc2b's advice and threatened Iran with assured nuclear destruction if they attacked Israel with nuclear weapons. Then suppose the Russians sided with the Iranians and threaten to retaliate by attacking our "ally" Iraq or maybe even Japan with nukes. Nevermind that this is all madness.

Check or checkmate?


No problem. We've got lots of nukes.


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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/25/2009 7:01:21 PM   
Sanity


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In Islam, it is believed that it pays handsomely to be a martyr, or even a nation of martyrs. What can seem horrific to us may be thought of as the ultimate payday to them.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I don't like my strategy either but it's the only one I can see that has a chance of working. Unless we are prepared to wage war on Iran and impose a new government; Iran will sooner or later get the bomb. The only real strategy then is to make sure they understand that they're playing with the big boys now - and the horrific consequences that can result if they don't think things through very carefully.


< Message edited by Sanity -- 12/25/2009 7:05:10 PM >

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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/25/2009 7:05:38 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

I read the younger cohorts hold us and our materialist ways in high regard.


You've heard correctly. At the art center where I work, there is a lady who will be having an photography exhibit and lecture on her travels in Iran. Her photos and stories were fascinating and she said that it is only the government that is anti-American. The people were very friendly, were fascinated by America and Americans, and made it clear (when they were certain they were out of earshot of any police or government officials) that they wanted many of the same freedoms that we take for granted. The younger women in particular would love to trade in their head scarves for a bikini (the men would like that too). All in all, she said that the Iranian people - particularly the young ones - are very restless and are slowly loosing patience with their government. We may indeed see a rebellion yet.

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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/25/2009 7:10:25 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

In Islam, it is believed that it pays handsomely to be a martyr, or even a nation of martyrs. What can seem horrific to us may be thought of as the ultimate payday to them.


Amongst some elements of Islam such is believed, but not all. Islam is like any of the other major religions in that it spans the range from going-through-the-motions liberal practitioners to moderates to orthodox to fanatics.

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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/25/2009 7:13:25 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

You say the talk or bomb strategy is flawed and then you propose sending warning missles into Tehran. What began at Guernica did not end at Guernica, I'm afraid. Bombing civilian populations for warning? I take it that was a throw away line. Wouldn't that surely be the beginning of a war?


No I'm seriously proposing sending a missle into downtown Tehran. My point is that we want to make it clear to the Mullahs that we can reach out and touch them and that we can do so easily. I am not advocating bombing civilian populations but really, don't you think that an unarmed missle sent crashing into their parliament building (whatever they call it) would make an impression?


i believe it would strengthen the hand of the reactionary right among the clerics and also the hand of the Revolutionary Guard who are making the Ahmadinijad (sp?) government look liberal.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/25/2009 7:19:24 PM >

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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/25/2009 7:13:29 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
In Islam, it is believed that it pays handsomely to be a martyr, or even a nation of martyrs. What can seem horrific to us may be thought of as the ultimate payday to them.


I agree with Sanity on this point.

But further, attacking the government would probably rally the naton to their side, destroy the growing opposition, and yield nothing but good things for the mullahs.
Unless we attempt to invade, defeat, and occupy the entire nation of Iran for about a decade or more then blustering about denying them nukes is stupid.

We found a way to contain Stalin and Mao with their nuclear arsenals, and won the day. We may have to do the same with Iran, and North Korea as well.

Basically, if a nation really really wants a nuclear bomb, there isn't any way to stop it. Prohibitions and blockades rarely work- the technology is too easy to get, the materials too easy to smuggle.

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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/25/2009 7:17:56 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I read the younger cohorts hold us and our materialist ways in high regard.


You've heard correctly. At the art center where I work, there is a lady who will be having an photography exhibit and lecture on her travels in Iran. Her photos and stories were fascinating and she said that it is only the government that is anti-American. The people were very friendly, were fascinated by America and Americans, and made it clear (when they were certain they were out of earshot of any police or government officials) that they wanted many of the same freedoms that we take for granted. The younger women in particular would love to trade in their head scarves for a bikini (the men would like that too). All in all, she said that the Iranian people - particularly the young ones - are very restless and are slowly loosing patience with their government. We may indeed see a rebellion yet.


A report in today's NYT suggests the possibility of internal rebellion is being sytematically quelched. I would not hold out much hope. I have a lot of sympathy for the Iranian people. They have a long and proud heritage from what little I know of it. Geopolitics never ceases to be a mess, hey?

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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/25/2009 7:18:38 PM   
Sanity


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I'll give you that. I should have written that, among the Islamic extremists ruling Iran with their iron fists that is the case.

Not all Muslims are extremists by any stretch of the imagination, I fully agree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

In Islam, it is believed that it pays handsomely to be a martyr, or even a nation of martyrs. What can seem horrific to us may be thought of as the ultimate payday to them.


Amongst some elements of Islam such is believed, but not all. Islam is like any of the other major religions in that it spans the range from going-through-the-motions liberal practitioners to moderates to orthodox to fanatics.


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RE: Are We To Bomb Iran's Nuclear Facilities ? - 12/25/2009 7:21:50 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Just suppose we followed Marc2b's advice and threatened Iran with assured nuclear destruction if they attacked Israel with nuclear weapons. Then suppose the Russians sided with the Iranians and threaten to retaliate by attacking our "ally" Iraq or maybe even Japan with nukes. Nevermind that this is all madness.

Check or checkmate?


No problem. We've got lots of nukes.



I suspect you are too intelligent to be serious with that statement. Don't disabuse me of that thought, please.


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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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