RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/28/2009 7:37:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The what if, LP, is zero submissive satisfaction; unwanted and sometime severe pain; a lot of resentment toward the faux dommes; and a lot of self-bashing for being so stupid. Hello! Been there, done that, didn't even get a T shirt. [:D]

Thankfully, vincent, I don't believe I've contributed to that.  LOL.





LP, from reading your posts, I am confident you have not. [:)]



vincentML -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/28/2009 7:40:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

fren⋅zy
–noun
1.  extreme mental agitation; wild excitement or derangement.
2. a fit or spell of violent mental excitement; a paroxysm
   characteristic of or resulting from a mania

–verb (used with object)
3. to drive to frenzy; make frantic:

Synonyms:
2. madness, insanity, lunacy, aberration; rage, fury, raving.
Related Words for: frenzy.
craze, delirium, fury, hysteria


Thank you, sweetsub. I think your definitions confirm my point it is a word not to be taken lightly. It is a word filled with unrestrained power and suffering.



MargueriteV -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/28/2009 7:40:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

Lady H- You seem bent upon using negative descriptions. What I'm feeling now is what I'd call a sub frenzy, and it is neither impulsive, nor needy. It is most definitely something positive, and pleasing to Her........It's all good.....


I haven't seen a positive definition of sub frenzy, if its not impulsive, needy or possibly dangerous calling it a sud frenzy will confuse a lot of people who have seen the term.



MargueriteV -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/28/2009 7:42:35 PM)

I've typed with an aspiring dominant that didn't know the term at all.



slavekal -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/28/2009 7:43:35 PM)

I would imagine that it is worse for men.



sweetsub1957 -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/28/2009 7:47:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

fren⋅zy
–noun
1.  extreme mental agitation; wild excitement or derangement.
2. a fit or spell of violent mental excitement; a paroxysm
  characteristic of or resulting from a mania

–verb (used with object)
3. to drive to frenzy; make frantic:

Synonyms:
2. madness, insanity, lunacy, aberration; rage, fury, raving.
Related Words for: frenzy.
craze, delirium, fury, hysteria


Thank you, sweetsub. I think your definitions confirm my point it is a word not to be taken lightly. It is a word filled with unrestrained power and suffering.


When in doubt I go to websters.com.



vincentML -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/28/2009 7:48:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

I would imagine that it is worse for men.


what is the basis for your generalization?



CaringandReal -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/28/2009 8:00:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I think you get what LP and I were driving at. So many male "submissives" are so wrapped up in their desire for fantasy fulfillment that they latch on to the first person who says YES, not really scoping the situation out fully. Safety? What's that??

The other group: the ones who just want their kink scratched, and will do the same latch on to the first one, and every one. They get ripped off, they get injured, physically and emotionally, and of course they get a skewed picture of what the "lifestyle" can be about.



I think I see, and it's a rather grim sight. You (dominant women) must encounter a lot of "damaged goods" due to this. And the sub guys... Well I've seen a little of what they face by reading the dom female personal ads. The majority of dom women with profiles on CM are nothing like the dom women who post in this forum. Sub women don't have to face 9 out of 10 doms wanting money from them. If I did face that regularly, I'm pretty sure I would leap at the first dominant man to offer me something that was non-commerical, non-professional that at least had the potential, however distant, to be a normal relationship not some cold business transaction. And you're right, safety would be fairly low on my list of concerns, under those circumstances.



CaringandReal -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/28/2009 8:04:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

Are you saying that due to general frustration at not getting their needs met, some male submissives will become willing to serve anyone or do anything, even things they might under better circumstances think twice about, just to have some submissive experiences at all?


In some cases, yes I am saying that.  It's not universal by any means and I don't even think it applies only to one gender.  I'm not trying to paint anyone out there with an unkind brush, but I can say that I've seen it often enough in My own personal experience to identify it.

Also what other categories are there for male submission besides masochist and servant? I guess sex toy/pet is probably one but are there others? (I'm not trying to offend anyone with these questions, btw, just trying to learn a little more.)

I would agree with the sex toy and/or pet category.  Another is those who crave ownership so badly that they literally don't care who would own them, so long as they felt that type of security.  That drive exists in males just as it does some female submissives. 

In addition to those, you might want to look up some posts that have been made by Undergroundsea on the various components of the submissive male.  He has done wonderful writings on the subject and I think better explains the various drives in submission, which could be seen as a parallel to the subject.



I don't think you are painting anyone with an unkind brush. You are describing a difficult social? cultural? situation that doesn't offer certain people (namely submissive men) a lot of good options.

I'll followup on the author you recommended. Undergroundsea. Sounds intriguing!



sweetsub1957 -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/28/2009 8:08:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

I would imagine that it is worse for men.


I'm a gal, obviously, and the first three months or so after I discovered bdsm I was up to my eyeballs and then some in sub frenzy.  I'd read about it on the boards, and I was 50 so you'd think I'd have known better.  When I finally realized what was happening, that I was so wreckless and using such poor judgement, I was totally morified and immediately snapped out of it.  I think it can hit any of us s-types pretty bad at first, esp if we're not expecting it. 



MaamJay -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/29/2009 12:10:29 AM)

I was about to add that in My experience, sub frenzy aka sub fever, is neither gender nor age specific! Males, females, older and younger, can all fall prey to that desperate desire to be "doing it" that can lead to a dangerous suspension of judgement. Have also seen a slightly different version in vanillas ... the desperate and dateless types ... it's just assumed to be less dangerous as they're probably not so likely to be bound and beaten ... well, not with their consent anyway! (Is it REALLY less dangerous though?)

What Underyoumam seems to be describing is that more positive outpouring of desire which comes from the establishing of a relationship that's looking good. I hope it continues to be ... and D, great to see You back on the boards again! Good luck to you both!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]



sweetsub1957 -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/29/2009 3:19:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

Have also seen a slightly different version in vanillas ... the desperate and dateless types ... it's just assumed to be less dangerous as they're probably not so likely to be bound and beaten ... well, not with their consent anyway! (Is it REALLY less dangerous though?)

Yes!!  I've seen it too.  Hey, maybe we could call that one "vanilla craze......"



Lashra -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/29/2009 3:56:42 AM)

Yes sub males do experience sub frenzy, I have seen it first hand to a degree with my own subs past and present. They can become anxious, depressed, easily irritated and frustrated. I have known some others that even act desperate if it continues over a long period of time. It is not a pleasant thing at all, almost like a drug addict coming down off a drug.

~Lashra



Underumam -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/29/2009 5:12:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

fren⋅zy
–noun
1.  extreme mental agitation; wild excitement or derangement.
2. a fit or spell of violent mental excitement; a paroxysm
  characteristic of or resulting from a mania

–verb (used with object)
3. to drive to frenzy; make frantic:

Synonyms:
2. madness, insanity, lunacy, aberration; rage, fury, raving.
Related Words for: frenzy.
craze, delirium, fury, hysteria


The definition of frenzied fits Wall Mart shoppers during the holidays..lol.



vincentML -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/29/2009 5:36:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

Have also seen a slightly different version in vanillas ... the desperate and dateless types ... it's just assumed to be less dangerous as they're probably not so likely to be bound and beaten ... well, not with their consent anyway! (Is it REALLY less dangerous though?)

Yes!!  I've seen it too.  Hey, maybe we could call that one "vanilla craze......"


Sounds like a Ben and Jerry's ice cream flavor. lol



CaringandReal -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/29/2009 7:36:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

An interesting question Caring, and I wonder where it will lead. First, I don't know of any sub categories that are unique to either gender. Seems to be the same drama for both when it comes to submission..... that desire to surrender in whatever form.


Thanks. I think there's got to be some differences of expression give the different ways men and women are (still) brought up and, more significantly given the different hormonal makeup of the genders and how that affects their inner emotional climate, but I don't know how significant they are. I'm personally very interested in following up Lady Pact's reference in this regard. I was going to do it last night, but a certain first-person shooter named "Borderlands" interfered. But hey, I don't argue when someone's pointing a gun at my head! ;)

quote:


I have heard the word frenzy used to describe the psychosexual need during the "high" swing of bipolar personality. Seems to me that would not be gender specific nor role specific, i.e. s or D. Why else would a person be in a frenzy? The word "frenzy" is a very powerful term, imo. I would not treat it lightly. I do not mean to disparage bipolar personality here. For some it is a very serious problem. For others not so much. So, my question back to you is are these subs who talk about sub frenzy in a stable condition (for lack of a better word)


The bipolar use of the term is very interesting. I'm glad you told me about that. I don't know enough about psychology or the terms common to that field to know if the term originated from biplor descriptions, but it could be. People "borrow" terms from other fields all the time to describe things in their own experience that they have no words for, kind of like a hermit crab will adopt the shell created by a snail long-dead as it's own home. Perhaps "frenzy" was borrowed for a similar use: it seems to fit.

The only times I have seem the term "frenzy" used is by bdsm people in this forum, usually submissives. But I have seen it used a lot here, in fact I believe there have been several threads about it in the general forum. I know none of the people who use this term personally, so I cannot vouch for their stability one way or the other. It seems to be a term that is growing in popularity to describe a certain type of submissive experience. But the only submissives I'd personally seen applying it to their own experience were female, so I wondered if it was gender-specific.




CaringandReal -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/29/2009 7:58:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

I hear sub women talking a lot about something called "sub frenzy." I don't understand the phenomenon very well


quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

I'm not sure what the exact definition of "sub frenzy" is.


I thought it was that driven craziness to find a D type yesterday if not sooner, and be completely wreckless in instantly submitting because you crave it so intensely, sometimes ending up in bad situations and doing things one wouldn't otherwise do if they had their wits about them and their sensibilities intact.
 



Oh, do you mean jumping too soon into relationships, without getting to know the person well enough first? Maybe in women the need/frenzy expresses itself more in this way than in random dungeon play, because of the more frequent opportunities women seem to have to enter into relationships.

I think I know what you mean by frenzy now. It was around a long time before people started using "frenzy" to describe it. I was confused, though, I thought it had something to do with specific strong feelings you felt within a sexual scene with a safe partner. Maybe I'm thinking of subspace? Subdrop? LOL, too many terms!

Anyway, I have known a number of submissive women who would do what has been descibed earlier in this thread: go to public dungeons to be played with by total strangers. Both courses of action: doing anything for anyone just to be in a bdsm relationship and playing with strangers in a public club sound dangerous as hell to me. You can do something like this for years without any ill effects as long as you are lucky enough to encounter people who are conscientiousness or have more or less good intentions. But the one time you luck out can really hurt.

One woman I knew was sure she was safe because (a) she did public play a lot, (b) it was a "monitored" dungeon and (c) she came with a friend. But the friend wandered off to pursue her own interests, leaving the sub tied up and at someone else's mercy. That person, who appeared level on first sight, viciously beat her far beyond her limits when nobody wsa close enough to observe (if you have the right equipment, it doesn't take long to do something like this), and either ignored her safeword or manipulated/intimadated her into quietly accepting an experience that was far beyond her ability to endure without being traumatized. The woman didn't scream or make a fuss. I think she was too ashamed. She just quietly waited, after being treated this way, for someone to notice her and untie her.




CaringandReal -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/29/2009 8:01:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

Yes sub males do experience sub frenzy, I have seen it first hand to a degree with my own subs past and present. They can become anxious, depressed, easily irritated and frustrated. I have known some others that even act desperate if it continues over a long period of time. It is not a pleasant thing at all, almost like a drug addict coming down off a drug.

~Lashra


Do you know why your subs felt it? Are these emotions caused by something real, like sexual denial? Are they fed by fears which may or may not be realistic? Or is it just some random mood that comes out of nowhere?



Andalusite -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/29/2009 8:12:36 AM)

Unfortunately, the other people who were there can't read minds. If she had yelled "safeword" as soon as he crossed her boundaries and didn't back off, I'm sure people would have intervened. Getting beaten hard, even to the point of blood, is exactly what a lot of people *do* want. I've played casually in public before, almost always with people I already knew and was friends with. I've played with strangers a couple of times as a demo bottom in a class or some such. Generally I wouldn't untie someone else's bottom or submissive, but if I saw one left unattended for a while, I'd snag one of the dungeon monitors and ask them to check in. Anyway, going off to a hotel room with someone they've never met strikes me as generally more risky than playing in a dungeon with other people around.



Lashra -> RE: Do Sub Men Experience Sub Frenzy? (12/29/2009 9:10:17 AM)

quote:

Do you know why your subs felt it? Are these emotions caused by something real, like sexual denial? Are they fed by fears which may or may not be realistic? Or is it just some random mood that comes out of nowhere?


I"m not a psychologist or a physician so I can just take an educated guess at it. I would have to say they felt it because it was caused by some chemical in their brains. Perhaps once some subs are not in the presence of the person who provides them with the most enhanced emotions, they tend to drop and go into sub frenzy. Is it real? Yes of course it is real, but I do not think it is caused by solely by sexual denial. I think it is because we Dominants get very much into the minds of our submissives and we can become like a drug to them. Once that "drug" is taken away the brain chemicals that have been stimulated, lessen or cease and the sub "drops". That is the best way that I can describe it.
Some of the fears are unrealistic but the symptom caused by them are very real. Depression, mood swings, almost maniac behavior in some. Sub frenzy can be a dangerous thing for a sub and it has to be dealt with as a very real "illness".

~Lashra



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