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RE: Over internalization? - 12/30/2009 8:07:51 PM   
xssve


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Status: offline 		Keeping it simple, presuming the OP meant to say internalization and not projection, then I'm, assuming from the context it's mean when say a dom internalizes his will to power to the extent that he loses his (or her) empathy and perspective, i.e., autocratically, placing their needs above all else - which, while very similar to a psychotic break in many respects, is unfortunately all too common, and there's definitely a large overlap there with pthological Narcissism, it's sort of a functional definition of the external behavioral aspects of it in fact.

The converse would be the doormat, real or mythical, who puts up with it, and who may be internalizing their submissiveness to the point of total passivity, if they aren't just making the best of a bad situation.



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RE: Over internalization? - 12/30/2009 9:43:51 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

I think that any internalization is inconsiderate. 


What the fuck?  So you don't actually think that learning to read is an important part of ... welll life or anything cultural? 

"Any" internalization as it relates to the context it has been presented in; that being, a relationship.

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RE: Over internalization? - 12/30/2009 9:54:14 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Drifa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dominasola
I think that any internalization is inconsiderate.


Internalization is an unconscious process, and really can't be said to be considerate or inconsiderate.

Not really, no. We can't just brush the ways we deal with situation psychologically under the carpet because we have a mental habitual predisposition to do it.

That's like saying that cheating isn't inconsiderate if it can be said the perpetrator is suffering from an infidelity addiction.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Drifa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dominasola
The definition of internalization suggests that through this process, the person is assuming an identity that is not their own; s/he is attempting to adopt the value structures of another person without truly believing it him/herself.  This can lead to cognitive dissonance (having two conflicting beliefs/thoughts/potential courses of action) in a person.


If you are joining a church, or adapting to a new culture, a person learns the set of norms established by the church or culture, and then the person learns why that church or culture values those norms, until finally the person internalizes those norms, accepting the norm as their own viewpoint. This is a completely normal human process.

Sure it is. Except we have the habit of making the contention that some forms of this method (e.g. brainwashing) are not appealing.

I suppose it comes down to whether someone is more interested in laying themselves open to discover who they are underneath or are more interested in morphing into an idea of what they want to be (consciously or not).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drifa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dominasola
It is damaging in a relationship (specifically D/s), and will appear when the D-type may request or demand that the s-type do something. Since the s-type has internalized the D-type's view on D/s, s/he is more likely to do what s/he believes the D-type wants, even though the "true" part of him/her is screaming "no."  In doing what the D wants, the s may feel guilty or distraught; s/he hasn't submitted because it is in his/her nature to do so - rather, s/he submitted because s/he wants to believe that s/he possesses the nature to submit.


I think this is a fallacious chain of reasoning.

It would be if it weren't obvious from marauding these fora for even a day that some people jump into D/s just because of what they think D/s would feel like if they wore it as a badge.

And, even among the genuine, there are so many internal civil wars that people go through trying to determine if they are doing things for the reasons they think are right or wrong that it's quite poignant to address how someone's motivations can easily be misguided and misapplied.

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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 5:28:48 AM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

I think that any internalization is inconsiderate. 


What the fuck?  So you don't actually think that learning to read is an important part of ... welll life or anything cultural? 

"Any" internalization as it relates to the context it has been presented in; that being, a relationship.


There really isn't a context of any sort on this thread (or at least there hadn't been at that point in the thread.).  Now we have a couple of folks PRESUMING to know what the OP is asking / talking about.  There's no real question, no real anchor.  

Rather like the Seinfield thread of BDSM... 

< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 12/31/2009 5:31:22 AM >

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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 5:54:28 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
Now we have a couple of folks PRESUMING to know what the OP is asking / talking about.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

Interested in what others have to say from both sides of two coins here. The D/s coin and those that over internalize and those that have learned to spot and deal with it.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
...it would seem to me that over-internalization is the antithesis of transparency in a relationship.


Thank you, which is where I was coming from in regards to it becoming inconsiderate or even thoughtless.




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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 6:02:27 AM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

I think that any internalization is inconsiderate. 


What the fuck?  So you don't actually think that learning to read is an important part of ... welll life or anything cultural? 

"Any" internalization as it relates to the context it has been presented in; that being, a relationship.


There really isn't a context of any sort on this thread (or at least there hadn't been at that point in the thread.).  Now we have a couple of folks PRESUMING to know what the OP is asking / talking about.  There's no real question, no real anchor.  

Rather like the Seinfield thread of BDSM... 


10 people see an accident, a fight, an argument, a debate, anything, often you will get 10 different points of view.
What you just stated, I could say is fairly common around here.
I almost always see people interpreting situations and life in a different manner.
I feel like I understood what Whiplash was attempting to say, and I am confident in my interpretation of it.
I see a lot of "group think" and "group thinkers" around here and I certainly see even more "group thinkers" out and about in the "real world", that is what helped me identify
with the  "over internalization" theory.

I just don't spend a lot of time wondering if everyone {especially around here} get's it.
I think in life sometimes we "get" it and sometimes we don't get it.
I don't get a lot of things around here, and I do mean a lot.
I enjoy seeing and internalizing what I see on here and online and in life, in a probably very DIFFERENT way
than most do.
But that is why I am me, and I enjoy seeing nuances in a way that many probably do not.
I am sure many of us, are not on the same page most of the time, and certainly not only on this thread.
Vive la difference!
Happy New Year

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/31/2009 6:13:12 AM >

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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 6:15:26 AM   
sunshinemiss


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Status: offline 		How in the world is internalization, the process, inconsiderate or selfish?  I don't see the link.  Internalization is a process that people go through, often AS CHILDREN, when they are learning the norms of society.  What does that have to do with D/s?

And while we are at it... how is that the anti-thesis of transparency?  The examination of one's norms and values and internalized flotsam and jetsam may be counterintuitive at times, may be stressful, may require changing as we learn and grow... but what does it have to do with what you are saying?  How does knowing oneself become the opposite of transparency?  It seems to me that being self-aware would be the necessary FIRST STEP in being transparent... unless of course one is to have a therapist as one's partner.  "I felt x".... "well, sunny you felt that way because of y."  Another person can't POSSIBLY have all the info about another person's life, their history, subconscious, conditioning, etc. 

How is internalizing things like - the rhythm of speech, the building of values, the method of expressing emotion - related to d/s, especially in a non-transparent manner?

In the end, maybe I don't understand the question the way you all do. 

That's cool, too.
sunshine  looking at the prism from over here...


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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 6:24:45 AM   
MzMia


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Status: offline 		sunshine, at this point all I can do for you and anyone else would be to refer to
my mainstay for definitions.
MerriamWebster!
From my MerriamWebster online dictionary:

Main Entry: in·ter·nal·ize Pronunciation: \in-ˈtər-nə-ˌlīz\Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): in·ter·nal·ized; in·ter·nal·iz·ingDate: 1884: to give a subjective character to; specifically : to incorporate (as values or patterns of culture) within the self as conscious or subconscious guiding principles through learning or socialization
— in·ter·nal·i·za·tion \-ˌtər-nə-lə-ˈzā-shən\ noun

I am sure you know the definition of "over" add that to the above, and you have the definition.
I can give definitions, but constructs and interpretations will usually vary, unless you are "over internalizing"?

lol a joke

I just had an "aha" moment.
To give an example of "over internalization when it comes to BDSM", would be individuals that are not being true to whom they REALLY are, because of said outside influences.
At the end of the day, to thine own self be true.
If you are true to yourself, to your core and to who and what you really are in life, you are rarely "over internalizing" the forces around you.
I have enjoyed the chat, but beyond this I can't go on, I don't want to start "over internalizing"!

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/31/2009 6:30:51 AM >

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What's your favorite fetish?
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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 6:35:19 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Internalization is a process that people go through, often AS CHILDREN, when they are learning the norms of society.


I don't think that's the context the OP had intended.

Rather, what I suspect he was getting at is the process of using a purely internal, emotionally suppressive means by which to deal with any stress-inducing situations.

The process by which, for example, an s-type could go for months following the demands/requests of hir D-type concerning a certain type of act that actually fundamentally bothers hir, but which xhe never makes mention of for fear of appearing to contradict the D-type's wishes...until the "internalization" of the discomfort starts to quietly breed resentment and one day , after a seemingly innocuous order, xhe flips out from the overload of mental build-up.

In such cases, they are a modus operandi which is contrary to the disclosure of information (in the case of the example, emotional status information which the D-type should have in order to understand the impact of the decisions being made).

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 12/31/2009 6:36:11 AM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 6:40:59 AM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Internalization is a process that people go through, often AS CHILDREN, when they are learning the norms of society.


I don't think that's the context the OP had intended.

Rather, what I suspect he was getting at is the process of using a purely internal, emotionally suppressive means by which to deal with any stress-inducing situations.

The process by which, for example, an s-type could go for months following the demands/requests of hir D-type concerning a certain type of act that actually fundamentally bothers hir, but which xhe never makes mention of for fear of appearing to contradict the D-type's wishes...until the "internalization" of the discomfort starts to quietly breed resentment and one day , after a seemingly innocuous order, xhe flips out from the overload of mental build-up.

In such cases, they are a modus operandi which is contrary to the disclosure of information (in the case of the example, emotional status information which the D-type should have in order to understand the impact of the decisions being made).


Does this mean you agree with me or not?
I crave validation, lol.

not really!!!!!!!!!!!!!


< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/31/2009 6:41:30 AM >

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To Each His/Her Own
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What's your favorite fetish?
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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 6:50:12 AM   
sunshinemiss


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Status: offline 		I saw something like that earlier... and as I stated then, that is NOT internalization... it's a weak ego.

*I'm a psychologist... I think I have a totally different perspective here... It's like using the word "tolerate"... means something completely different to me than the general populace.

I'm a step out of this for a moment because I can't seem to take off my therapist hat.

best,
sunshine


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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 6:55:19 AM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

I saw something like that earlier... and as I stated then, that is NOT internalization... it's a weak ego.

*I'm a psychologist... I think I have a totally different perspective here... It's like using the word "tolerate"... means something completely different to me than the general populace.

I'm a step out of this for a moment because I can't seem to take off my therapist hat.

best,
sunshine



I have been reading books related to psychology for 30 years, I also minored in psychology in college.
I would challenge you to this:  I know I could go to 10 different psychologists with a problem, and get at least 5 different points of view.
Who is right here?
I went to a psychiatrist in college that weiged about 400 pounds, was a bit wierd, and was chain smoking, I was thinking I should be counseling him.
There was a psychiatrist that went on a shooting rampage a few months ago.
I think you can be a psychologist or a psychiatrist and be as nutty as a fruitcake.
I don't mean you sunshine, cause I don't know you.
But, just because you are a psychologist or a psychiatrist often won't mean a hill of beans to me.
But if you believe in Maslow's Hierarcy of Needs {as I have for years} you can help me!


Muslim US army major psychiatrist kills 13 Fort Hood shooting spree bloodbath Afghanistan - News - Bild.de

When it comes to psychologists, psychiatrists, and even medical doctors I respect their education, but that does not mean that they can or will be able to help me or meet my needs, I talk everyone with a grain of salt.
Regardless of who or what they are.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/31/2009 7:23:17 AM >

_____________________________

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To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 6:58:02 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


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Status: offline 		Psst....sunshinemiss....do you have an opening you can pencil me in?  My therapist is booked solid  and I have this problem with over-internalizing, I think you can help me with. 

WinD

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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 7:14:20 AM   
Justme696


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Status: offline 		these kind of words take the fun out of BDSM..and are hard to write.
Ban them.

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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 7:36:57 AM   
sunshinemiss


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Status: offline 		Who is right here?  ME OF COURSE!!! *wink

I wasn't saying "I'm a psychologist" as in "Therefore, I am correct."  I was saying it as in, I think I may be looking at the terms differently than y'all are intending."

No worries. 


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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 7:37:34 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


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Status: offline 		Yes sir, I'll get right on that...

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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 7:39:02 AM   
Jeffff


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Jeff

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RE: Over internalization? - 12/31/2009 7:42:27 AM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Who is right here?  ME OF COURSE!!! *wink

I wasn't saying "I'm a psychologist" as in "Therefore, I am correct."  I was saying it as in, I think I may be looking at the terms differently than y'all are intending."

No worries. 



Hummm, I totally get you now.
Isn't it hard not to view the world with that psychologist hat on?
fascinating, you have much to analyze {even when you are not trying} on here, I hope your head doesn't explode!

 

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 58
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