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RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 11:54:12 AM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline 		Wow. Lots of stuff going on in this thread. Some pretty interesting points and counter-points. I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents as well. And it's probably worth even less.

I thought about the title of the subject itself: "The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman". After reading the OP and responses, it seems pretty clear that it's objectification that the OP and many respondents seem to dislike, not the fetishization. Just semantics perhaps, but to me, a man having a fetish for a dominant woman would only mean that he is unusually aroused by the dominant woman, or, in the extreme case, that he can only be aroused by a dominant woman. I don't think many dominant women would object very much to a man who could be aroused only by them. The objection seems to be when a man's arousal is over the paraphernalia or an aspect of domination that the woman doesn't like.

Looking at it a little differently, I thought that maybe the OP is on the right track with "over-fetishization" after all. But it's not fetishization of the dominant woman, it's the overbearing preponderance of the objects of fetish in BDSM in general. Fetish wear, fetish gear, it's so ubiquitous in the lifestyle. You can hardly even attend a BDSM-related event without dressing yourself up in some crazy outfit that passes muster. This fetish object culture is so drilled into everyone's head that people have trouble separating the objects from the people, the clothes from the role. I wonder if there was less focus on the attire, some of the other issues might start to clarify a bit?

Getting away from the attire, and focusing more on the dominant role stereotype, when you cut through all the BS, it seems to boil down to complaints that the man's fetish doesn't fit well with the woman's. The word "dominant" spans a wide range of activities, attitudes, personality types, etc., and each of us has his/her own ideas about the various aspects of domination, which ones are attractive, neutral, and unattractive. Regardless of the specific activity or object of fetish, nobody seems to mind it when the man's complements the woman's. The complaints are about a lot of men being aroused by and focused on things that a lot of women aren't. I don't doubt that it's largely promoted by a stereotype "reinforced through male-developed, male-written, male produced porn", a "fantasy developed by men, for men." However, the stereotype is also promulgated by women on a regular basis.

Personally, I don't give a damn about "fetish wear", and frankly wish there was a lot less focus on it. I also don't care for the stereotypical dominatrix caricature, or the stereotypical sub persona. I find them both boring and unrealistic. I'm a lot more interested in the control aspect. But that's just me.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 201
RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 1:30:31 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Okay... damn it! I say what I said and get hit by numorous Ghana emails. Wonder if they looked at my picture or just pegged me? lol I do love when they call me dear and so wish to know me! And then there was the kid... lol

(Not accountable for typing and spelling errors... I can't see today! lol)

< Message edited by Lockit -- 1/2/2010 1:32:07 PM >

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RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 2:46:37 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
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This has been a great thread.  But what of the other issue of "over-fetishization" -- specifically, beyond the issue of appearance and dress, what about the ideals of how a femdom should act/behave and what she should - and MOST importantly, what *motivates* her.  I think all of these ideals are created by male-developed porn and reinforced through fantasy - and the issue is that while some of the "acts" may overlap, most dominant women don't do what they do for the same reasons sub men wish/want/dream they do.

Many subs don't know/don't ask/don't care why a woman is dominant, so long as she's dominating him. But what does she *get out of* dominance - and the acts themselves (the kinky and not so kinky ones).  This is most evidenced by men that submit instantly, rather than appreciate that a woman who likes to take power must have power to take away - she doesn't want a groveling worm.

I am a fairly fetishy, sadistic woman - yet, I don't ever fantasize or eroticize an instant-meek-worthless-worm - yet, so many sub men think this is what we want, that somehow we think a stranger behaving in this manner toward us will entice our dominant side.  This is because femdom porn doesn't feature courting, seduction, and the mental/emotional side of dominance that so many of us crave/desire/want.

How many dominant women have had to tell a man, "Don't behave like that. It's a turn off," only to find that core to his submission is the idea that we WANT him to act like that. Yikes!!

Akasha


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RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 2:48:52 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Elan, as always, I appreciate your perspective. Thank you for your post. It's nice to see when men have reached a level of maturity that they "get it". And to be called a "hot, Domme babe", love it! ;-)

I want to just highlight one thing you said.

quote:

Interestingly, for better or worse, I think a lot of boys have seen so many fetish pictures, pictures of tits and ass, pictures of dommes wearing leather and brandishing whips, and pictures to inspire hard disposition that we're somewhat immune. Yes, this goes against the OP somewhat, but it needs to be said because I know many boys who feel this way. If a domme doesn't show aspects of her vanilla life and interests outside BDSM, and cannot communicate with courtesy and with some degree of literacy, kinky pictures won't convince me to reply.


I think the immunity comes with maturity. I think at some point, you get to this place where you think to yourself "there's got to be more to life than this!". You realise that the pictures are pretty, but they aren't real, they are hollow, and they don't giggle, kiss and listen to you.


I wish to disagree with this thought. I am not a young man and have had my share of experience and I must tell you that fetish pictures do not cease to inspire and arouse me, and if they ever do then I presume I will be dead and gone. Some pictures of course are more provocative than others. Immunity? OMFG! I hope never. I am hardly an immature man. Of course the pictures are not real, but the arousal is because the pictures are processed through my sexually active brain. I find Sardex's work very erotic. Respectfully, I think you might misunderstand the role of erotic art in bdsm and the happy effects it has upon many men. Porn is tedious and immature. Art is suggestive, arousing, and seductive. A huge difference.




quote:

As for seekingOwnertoo's comment to your post.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo
Or are W/we losing the art of seduction ... and replacing it with ... pictures?


That is such an accurate remark. A great picture can convey a thousand words. Not all pictures are great pictures. And we have to be conscious of the pictures we use, I agree. I carefully chose my picture. The words that Elan used to describe echo in great part the reasons why I chose it. I don't find it sexual. I find it highly romantic from the domme/male sub perspective.

And almost an ironic statement considering that my avatar is a work of art, not just a fetish pic. Had I put the The Birth of Venus by Botticelli depecting a woman naked, reborn, being adored and catered to, would I have had the same remarks? Or the Venus of Urbino by Titian who reclines naked on her sofa while servants busy themselves in the back ground. Plenty of tits and ass in those paintings!

My best friend is an accomplished painter with quite the following and one of her series was an exploration of erotica. Should that series be labeled as porn? No, it's art, it's erotica, it's her expression, it's sex, it's natural!

- LA


May I also disagree with your comments here Lady Angelika? The Sardex picture you chose shows a boy who is obviously aroused, if you look closely enough at the bulge in his pants as they are being removed; he is surrounded by three active Mistresses who have obvious intent to act upon him; he is the center of their attention; and he is in a delicious state of helplessness. Not at all a comparison to the works of Botticelli and the rest whose Venuses are quite sedate, reserved and modest. Are you kidding me, dear Lady? You may find it "romantic." but I find it arousing. I can read a very sexual story from it.

And let me disagree with seekingOwnertoo. We are not losing the art of seduction. Art has always been seductive and for very good reason. We are genetically hard wired, I think, to distinguish good safe patterns from evil dangerous patterns. The visual arts have always played an important role in human sexual activity. I think seekingOwnertoo's comic book analogy is way off the mark. Nobody says, "Would you like to come up and see my comic books, my dear?" as a prelude to seduction; but etchings have had their day.

Lady A, I think we submissive men are from Mars and You are from Venus when it comes to the image depicted in your avatar. Given a choice of romantic vs erotic, without any context or studying your profile or reading this thread, I think the majority of submissive men would vote the latter. Just mho. I would vote that and i am far beyond the comic book stage I assure you. That image is HOT! *grins*

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/2/2010 3:11:39 PM >

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RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 3:11:15 PM   
MasterJimUK


Posts: 8
Joined: 11/29/2009
Status: offline
quote:

My first profile picture was dressed, covered, slight smile and nothing sexy about it. And man did I get as much of the turned on men as I get with the picture I now have. A man who is going to think sexual is going to think sexual. A man who is going to pant, is going to pant. All you need is a woman and there he is.

It doesn't matter what we wear sometimes..


Your not a man anso how can you possibly know this?

I suspect that the reason you get just as much spam from men regardless of your picture is because men greatly outnumber women and go one of two routes;
They either start to write long and carefull considered emails to a select few women whos profile really matches what they want, or in most cases they get disenchanted with being ignored and spam every profile with the same message.

To suggest the number of messages you get on a dating site, with and without sexy pictues is sufficent to pass judgement on the behavior of the whole male population is going a little far in my humble opinon.

The way both men and women dress and present themselves has an impact on the person they are talking to. Especially on a dating site. This is not a justification of any particular reaction, but a degree of common sense is needed. If you dress like a homeless person, people will make judgements, if you dress in a suit, people will make judgements. Shoudl they? - No. Do they? - Yes. Even at school some girls seem to learn to attract male attention by dressing or undressing in certain ways. Should it work? - Maybe not. does it work? - Hell yes!

I can understand the frustations from both sides.
What I look for in the longterm is conversation, a sharing of minds, deep thoughts, wit, humour. All the good things.
But time and again I find promising relationships tilted in the wrong direction because sexy talk gets out of hand at the start and we find we've already started a relationship without really knowing each other.
This is not just the fault of men, though I suspect we are probably more at fault.

I guess it leads to issues where some women are happy to be desired by men, but they find it insulting and demeaning when they feel the only interest from the man is sex. This may not be true, but a horny man often has a one track mind.

From what i've been told, many men do behave very badly. Spamming all the women they can and then trying to use any conversation as an oppertunity to jerk of.
If someone could wave a magic wand and clear these people out a site then perhaps all would be peace and harmony. But, it not fair to condem or judge all men based on the behavior of some.

On the original topic of over fetishisation I think its a very good point.
The main focus on female dominants appears to be in fetish wear, fetishes and toys. These seems to be across all media.
I found that I had to dig quite deep to actually find meaningfull articles on the nature of domination.
So if women are looking at all this stuff then i'd imagine they feel pressure to be some sort of fetish barbie*. Some of that pressure must also come from men, many of whom education in BDSM has been from this type of material.

If you compare male and female dominants its quite suprising how different the expectations and perceptions are.

I'll leave the "who's fault it is" and "how to fix it" to greater minds than my own. ;)

*not that being a fetish baribe is a bad thing. Each to their own, but if would be a shame if were all made to feel we must be the same.

(in reply to VeryMercurial)
Profile   Post #: 205
RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 3:32:16 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		MasterJimUK... I have never said all men are alike and never would. They quite simply are not all the same... thank the powers that be. Therefore I am not judging all men. By the quote you used... where do you get that I say all men are like anything at all? First of all, I am saying if a man is going to think sexual things he will. If he is going to be disrespectful or a prince charming... he will. My attitude there is pretty much... it is what it is and take it as it is, consider the source or whatever.

If you are going on my comments about the turned on men... well gee...lol... it doesn't take long to figure out a guy asking if I want to view him on cam or take a strapon to him... is a turned on man! lol

For the most part I agree with a lot of what you have to say... except that I was judging all men as the same type of man. I thankfully know some very wonderful men... who do get horny(!) but conduct themselves in a respectable manner and are not lead by that hard on unless it is in a situation where is it warranted. lol

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RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 3:34:52 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Lady A, I think we submissive men are from Mars and You are from Venus when it comes to the image depicted in your avatar. Given a choice of romantic vs erotic, without any context or studying your profile or reading this thread, I think the majority of submissive men would vote the latter. Just mho. I would vote that and i am far beyond the comic book stage I assure you. That image is HOT! *grins*


I have to disagree with you here. I think that avatar is quite erotic, yes; but more than that, I think it's deeply and profoundly romantic. I've had the advantage of seeing a larger and more detailed rendition of the image, and I can say there's a great deal more going on in that picture than someone may notice in the small avatar. I see a complex assortment of emotional expressions and interactions  between the two principal characters, on several levels. The calm, gentle, delicate composure of the woman, the tender and caring way she cups his face in her hand, contrasted with the firm and implacable resolve in her facial expression and her body language... counterbalanced by the tension in his body, the rigid hands, the fear in his face as he resigns himself and prepares himself for the pain that he's about to endure; while at the same time the trust and devotion in his facial expression, the desire to please her, the inner peace he's finding as he surrenders to her will, and the strength he draws from her hand as he surrenders himself to her.

Is it physically arousing? Sure, especially as an initial reaction. But if you take a moment to look at it, and let yourself feel the layers below the surface, that picture tells a tender and beautiful story about two people and the love, trust, and devotion they share and that binds them to one another. You just have to look beyond the initial reaction, and open yourself to seeing the subtle, more nuanced elements of it's personality. You could almost say, then, that the image is a very good metaphor for this thread itself....


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Profile   Post #: 207
RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 4:12:46 PM   
MasterJimUK


Posts: 8
Joined: 11/29/2009
Status: offline
quote:

MasterJimUK... I have never said all men are alike and never would. They quite simply are not all the same... thank the powers that be. Therefore I am not judging all men. By the quote you used... where do you get that I say all men are like anything at all? First of all, I am saying if a man is going to think sexual things he will. If he is going to be disrespectful or a prince charming... he will. My attitude there is pretty much... it is what it is and take it as it is, consider the source or whatever.


I obviously read a bit to much into it and assumed you meant all men. I'm sorry.



(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 208
RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 4:15:33 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha


This has been a great thread.  But what of the other issue of "over-fetishization" -- specifically, beyond the issue of appearance and dress, what about the ideals of how a femdom should act/behave and what she should - and MOST importantly, what *motivates* her.  I think all of these ideals are created by male-developed porn and reinforced through fantasy - and the issue is that while some of the "acts" may overlap, most dominant women don't do what they do for the same reasons sub men wish/want/dream they do.

Many subs don't know/don't ask/don't care why a woman is dominant, so long as she's dominating him. But what does she *get out of* dominance - and the acts themselves (the kinky and not so kinky ones).  This is most evidenced by men that submit instantly, rather than appreciate that a woman who likes to take power must have power to take away - she doesn't want a groveling worm.

I am a fairly fetishy, sadistic woman - yet, I don't ever fantasize or eroticize an instant-meek-worthless-worm - yet, so many sub men think this is what we want, that somehow we think a stranger behaving in this manner toward us will entice our dominant side.  This is because femdom porn doesn't feature courting, seduction, and the mental/emotional side of dominance that so many of us crave/desire/want.

How many dominant women have had to tell a man, "Don't behave like that. It's a turn off," only to find that core to his submission is the idea that we WANT him to act like that. Yikes!!

Akasha


I'm in full agreement that it's an excellent thread.  So many different ways to think about the original topic and so many views heard.

I'm fully with you on the bit about the porn.  BDSM porn with a female top/male bottom is a contributor.  (Remember that I'm looking at this in the context of males who have little to no experience in an actual long term dynamic.)  Now, I'm not a great connoisseur of porn, but the kink type isn't that far off from other types.  Even in (what should I call it?) regular porn, there really isn't a whole lot about what motivates anybody except the sex.  Which, of course, is the goal of filming the stuff anyway.  There's no real seduction in the other stuff, either.  It's catering to the fantasy that it's supposed to be that easy, especially from the male perspective.

When speaking of motivations, I attempt to bring both perspectives of Myself.  One comes from the viewpoint of being a Dominant woman and the other comes from being a female top.  Sometimes, they do cross over and other times they are completely separate.  For Myself, I know what motivates Me in each of these instances, and there was even an example of this in the casual banter a couple of pages back.  Even if I was not involved in a D/s dynamic in My life, I would still be around here because I love expressing My sadism.  Inflicting pain, humiliation, taking someone and doing exactly what I want to do to them that makes Me happy.....  That's what I want.

At the same time, topping isn't all of life.  Especially for those seeking all of their wants fulfilled, you have to throw that other stuff in there, too.  The relationship stuff.  The authority dynamic.  The genuine love for the other person.  The power structure.  Personal style.  All those other things that make life a whole life.  It seems to Me that's where you have to find the balance.


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Profile   Post #: 209
RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 4:18:21 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJimUK

quote:

MasterJimUK... I have never said all men are alike and never would. They quite simply are not all the same... thank the powers that be. Therefore I am not judging all men. By the quote you used... where do you get that I say all men are like anything at all? First of all, I am saying if a man is going to think sexual things he will. If he is going to be disrespectful or a prince charming... he will. My attitude there is pretty much... it is what it is and take it as it is, consider the source or whatever.


I obviously read a bit to much into it and assumed you meant all men. I'm sorry.



It's okay! lol You should see some of my lil mistakes! They don't call me Lucy or dingy domina for nothing! lol

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RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 4:22:46 PM   
DommeMae


Posts: 37
Joined: 12/18/2009
Status: offline 		Oh hell, be grateful for the males' obsession for the Visual; you can really use the power of the P---y quite effectively.

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 211
RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 4:25:54 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Damn... that must be what I do wrong! I find my power in my mind, heart and not the pussy... it's just a fun part I wouldn't want ignored in the right setting. lol If I have to count on the pussy... naw... no thanks.

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Profile   Post #: 212
RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 4:29:51 PM   
DommeMae


Posts: 37
Joined: 12/18/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Damn... that must be what I do wrong! I find my power in my mind, heart and not the pussy... it's just a fun part I wouldn't want ignored in the right setting. lol If I have to count on the pussy... naw... no thanks.


Power can come from anywhere.

(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 213
RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 5:17:49 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Okay... damn it! I say what I said and get hit by numorous Ghana emails. Wonder if they looked at my picture or just pegged me? lol I do love when they call me dear and so wish to know me! And then there was the kid... lol




I`m sure I read a thread on pegging on here.

(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 214
RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 5:20:47 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
You could almost say, then, that the image is a very good metaphor for this thread itself.... [/size][/font]


This is exactly right Panda :-)

- LA

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Profile   Post #: 215
RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 5:27:03 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Damn... that must be what I do wrong! I find my power in my mind, heart and not the pussy... it's just a fun part I wouldn't want ignored in the right setting. lol If I have to count on the pussy... naw... no thanks.


Exactly. Mature men who are worth the investment don't want just any pussy. They want the pussy of a woman who's mind and heart they crave. That lasts. Pussy for pussy's sake is ephemeral.

And we women are the same. When I was younger and less mature and this was all kink to me, I played a lot. I debased a few hard bodied boys (pure candy to me) and made them beg and grovel for me, torture them and then never called them again. They didn't seduce my mind or my heart. I wasn't ready for a relationship built on this dynamic. Now I am. And even if I were to have take a play partner, I could never go back to just using men to fulfill my sadistic pleasures. Now I meet men who want more than just pussy as I want more than a whipping boy.

- LA

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Profile   Post #: 216
RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 5:28:56 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Okay... damn it! I say what I said and get hit by numorous Ghana emails. Wonder if they looked at my picture or just pegged me? lol I do love when they call me dear and so wish to know me! And then there was the kid... lol




I`m sure I read a thread on pegging on here.


LOL... damn it Polite... I think you should search for it, call me and read it to me while I sit all comfy like in my... damn... how do I use a word you can't find another meaning for(?) lol Okay... sit here all comfy like and listen to your sweet accent. I'm making a coffee... when shall I expect you?


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Profile   Post #: 217
RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 5:43:57 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Keep it warm for me Lockit......err the coffee, that is. ( smirks a tad )

See, you ladies really have it easy. You get fetishised wearing sexy clothing. I am considered less hot than the contents of my cup.

Still, Lockit is right, the accent is a killer....lol

(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 5:45:04 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		ROFL... damn that pond!

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No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!


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Profile   Post #: 219
RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/2/2010 6:06:45 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		Lockit, re your byline:

Now that you know the names of some of us, is it appropriate for us to send you pics of our wedding tackle at this time?

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Profile   Post #: 220
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