RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out

RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (Full Version)

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Politesub53 -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/2/2010 3:01:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Yep. It seems the prosecutors botched the preparation of the case, relying heavily on inadmissible evidence. An omen of what will happen when we try to put terrorists who have been held and interrogated outside the civilian system on trial in New York, perhaps? I fully agree. The Iraqis needed to see this trial carried out in a transparent manner, in order to have faith in the US court system. The door is now wide open for talk of a cover up, the fact the prosecution was botched will be seen as neither here nor there.

Sanity -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/2/2010 6:41:27 AM)
Things are different in a war zone, in a conquered country. (There I go again, failing to be perfectly politically correct, but oh well).

DarkSteven -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/2/2010 7:05:07 AM)
What the hell, Rich. Go ahead and use the term "occupied".

Real0ne -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/2/2010 7:21:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Yep. It seems the prosecutors botched the preparation of the case, relying heavily on inadmissible evidence. An omen of what will happen when we try to put terrorists who have been held and interrogated outside the civilian system on trial in New York, perhaps? I fully agree. The Iraqis needed to see this trial carried out in a transparent manner, in order to have faith in the US court system. The door is now wide open for talk of a cover up, the fact the prosecution was botched will be seen as neither here nor there. its not a matter of the prosecution but the jurisdiction. The venue, forum and jurisdiction was in iraq. They did the same thing to tim mcveigh only to get a conviction. its right out of the judicial dirty tricks manual. people who know right from wrong but are not aware of that will say cover up and conspiracy and when these kinds of things are left to go on by people who know better or should know better conspiracy claims are correct. of course everyone knows its only a conspiracy "theory". LOL

Sanity -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/2/2010 7:21:42 AM)
I am Thomas, Steven. TheHeretic is Rich (even if he's not fabulously wealthy). And "occupied" it is, thank you. The word had escaped me somehow. quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven What the hell, Rich. Go ahead and use the term "occupied".

Real0ne -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/2/2010 7:23:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Things are different in a war zone, in a conquered country. (There I go again, failing to be perfectly politically correct, but oh well). granted we can cite some differences in procedure but it does not translate wrong into right.

Sanity -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/2/2010 7:34:28 AM)
Ah, but who is to judge what's wrong and what's right? That's the question. quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne granted we can cite some differences in procedure but it does not translate wrong into right.

Real0ne -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/2/2010 7:44:25 AM)
In the old days like really old days they used to put up a plaque at the edge of a city. On that plaque it had all the rules of the city with the consequences. Each locality had rules according to their customs and way of life. Today that is known as common law. (which unfortunately the true definition will not be found in law books) right and wrong comes out of religion as much as it hurts people to think about that. no murdering and thieving etc goes back to the cave man. ALL "LAW", (not to be confused with what people think is law....[legal] ), is grounded in and grew out of religion which goes back to the source God. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Ah, but who is to judge what's wrong and what's right? That's the question. quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne granted we can cite some differences in procedure but it does not translate wrong into right.

AnimusRex -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/2/2010 8:39:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Ah, but who is to judge what's wrong and what's right? That's the question. I thought only liberals were in favor of moral relativism? I dunno, maybe it is that whole "Judeo-Christian" thing, but I consider gunning down inoocent civilians to be impolite, or dare I say it, "morally wrong". But then, I am politically incorrect that way. In all seriousness, this IS a mess, legally. When the Bush Admin enlisted massive numbers of mercenaries, more than had ever been done before, they never bothered to construct a legal framework under which they would operate. They acted with disdain and disregard for any law that might restrict what they wanted to do- Alberto Gonzales famously said the Geneva Conventions were "quaint"- this attitude permated the entire Adminisration. Oh, for the Bush-lovers- I will toss you this- In the Bosnian War, the Clinton Administration didn't act much better- they hired Dyncorp as a military contractor to provide security in Bosnia. There were very credible stories coming out of there about the Dyncorp contractors running child brothels and having underage mistresses. But they fell under no law, US or Yugoslavian or military, so the entire thing was quietly ignored. The problem here is that old saying- "When you step outside the law, you lose the protection of it". Right at this moment, the United States is the biggest, most powerful nation on earth, and we can do whatever we want, anywhere we want, with no consequences. If we consider someone a criminal, we can just snatch them off the street in Italy, fly them to some hell hole dungeon, and torture them until they confess, or die. If we consider someone a threat to us, we can just lob a missile into their house, on any country's soil, without any repercussions. This is NOT a good thing for America- each Adminnistration keeps acting with more and more arrogance, more and and more insular bullying, and progressively alienating our friends and allies around the world. This is turning America into the exact thing that the Founding Fathers fought a war to get rid of. This is treasonous to the very concept of what America is.

Aneirin -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/2/2010 7:15:48 PM)
Everything that has happened in the war that was in Iraq, all those people who died to depose a corrupt and unfair system of law and put in it's place something which might become a democracy. When what was set up as law in that country tries to bring a case against foreigners who acted unlawfully against Iraqi citizens, the US courts laugh in their face, tell me, does this send out a favourable message of what western law and democracy is all about, if it is, what Iraq has in place won't last, those that have fought and died will have died in vain, what they fought and died for was ideals, not the reality which the Iraqis are now beginning to understand. If there is to be any hope Iraq stabilises, they are going to have to be taken seriously as any other member of the international community. If the Blackwater employees are innocent, what have they to fear in a properly run Western style court of law in Iraq? If there is any question over their innocence, it does the US no good to deny Iraq when it tries to do things the right way, it is sending out the wrong kind of message. Tell me, did the US actually gain the control of the oil they sought.

Moonhead -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/3/2010 9:32:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Tell me, did the US actually gain the control of the oil they sought. Sort of. The oilfields are about the only part of the country they're making much of an effort to keep under control, but they have yet to export anything, largely because it's even easier for insurgents to blow up a pipeline than it is for them to bump people off. Technically they have the oil, but it's doing them no good at the moment.

luckydawg -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/3/2010 11:10:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven What the hell, Rich. Go ahead and use the term "occupied". Occupied under a legal mandate from the UN to adminster, don't forget that part....

Moonhead -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/3/2010 1:25:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven What the hell, Rich. Go ahead and use the term "occupied". Occupied under a legal mandate from the UN to adminster, don't forget that part.... Didn't the UN rush that through after America had already illegally occupied the country?

rulemylife -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/3/2010 2:07:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Yep. It seems the prosecutors botched the preparation of the case, relying heavily on inadmissible evidence. An omen of what will happen when we try to put terrorists who have been held and interrogated outside the civilian system on trial in New York, perhaps? Possibly, but both are the result of botched policies from the Bush administration. Hiring mercenaries with what amounts to a "get out of jail free" card.

rulemylife -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/3/2010 2:15:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic A little over the top with the foaming at the mouth, don't you think, Rex? How about, I don't think the civilian system is up to the task of trying cases where the crime occured during military action. I think there is a good reason for knee-jerk bashers to oppose such a venue as well, but I haven't found a lefty yet who could spot it. Let's call a spade a spade here. These are mercenaries. Their use is a direct result of tying the hands of our sworn servicemen with politically correct rules of engagement. We just don't have a good mechanism in place to handle a case like this. Of course we do, it's called a court of law. It works well in other cases of criminal misconduct, the only difference here is the issue of immunity which should never have been granted to a private contractor.

rulemylife -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/3/2010 2:49:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne well the us cant grant immunity on iraqi turf any more than I can grant someone immunity to operate in your house. so if that is true it woul dhave had to come from the iraqis. Iraq did, but it is no longer in force. I highlighted the one paragraph because I find it amazing we have had more mercenaries in Iraq than actual military personnel. But, of course, this had nothing to do with profits for U.S. companies, it was all about destroying those WMD's that we haven't been able to find yet. Iraq deal with US to end immunity for foreign contractors The US has accepted that foreign contractors in Iraq will no longer have immunity from Iraqi law under a new security agreement now under negotiation, says the Iraqi Foreign Minister, Hoshyar Zebari. Mr Zebari, speaking to The Independent in Washington, said that if there was a further incident like the one in which 17 Iraqis were killed by workers from the Blackwater security company in Baghdad last September, the Iraqis would arrest and punish the contractors held responsible. The American concession would have a serious effect in Iraq, where there are an estimated 160,000 foreign contractors, many of them heavily armed security personnel. The contractors, who outnumber the 145,000-strong US Army in the country, have become a vital if much-resented part of the military machine in Iraq. Mr Zebari, Foreign Minister since 2004 and one of the ablest Iraqi leaders, defends the security deal now being negotiated, in contrast to Iraqi critics who say it turns the country into an American client state. On Friday the Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said negotiations on twin political and military agreements between the US and Iraq had "reached a dead end". Later, after a phone call from Mr Zebari, Mr Maliki backtracked from his earlier statement. But details of the American proposals, first published in The Independent, have been denounced in Iraq for making the US occupation permanent. Mr Zebari contends that nothing is yet agreed and the American side is showing flexibility under instructions from President Bush. "I am using this example [the ending of immunity for US contractors] to show that talks have not reached a dead end," he said.

TheHeretic -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/3/2010 2:50:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife the result of botched policies from the Bush administration. LOL, RML! That's just too fucking funny. You post this at the same time you are trying like hell to derail a discussion of the problems of "green power" by insisting someone else explain where Obama and liberals come into it.

rulemylife -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/3/2010 3:01:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife the result of botched policies from the Bush administration. LOL, RML! That's just too fucking funny. You post this at the same time you are trying like hell to derail a discussion of the problems of "green power" by insisting someone else explain where Obama and liberals come into it. Well....................I can post proof of mine. How about you?

TheHeretic -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/3/2010 3:07:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife the result of botched policies from the Bush administration. LOL, RML! That's just too fucking funny. You post this at the same time you are trying like hell to derail a discussion of the problems of "green power" by insisting someone else explain where Obama and liberals come into it. Well....................I can post proof of mine. How about you? What was "mine" to begin with, RML? I can hardly be expected to keep track of all the lies you tell about what I, or anyone else, said. What did you make up so you would have something you felt competent to talk about?

Politesub53 -> RE: Iraqis outraged as Blackwater case thrown out (1/3/2010 4:40:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven What the hell, Rich. Go ahead and use the term "occupied". Occupied under a legal mandate from the UN to adminster, don't forget that part.... What mandate, specifically ?...... Hans Blix had stated Iraq had complied with resolution 1441. I have to love the way the right has used the word occupied in this thread, since the invasion you have insisted you were liberators, so which is it ? It surely cant be both.

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