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Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 6:14:49 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/01/AR2010010101196.html?hpid=topnews

For most of the past 70 years, the U.S. economy has grown at a steady clip, generating perpetually higher incomes and wealth for American households. But since 2000, the story is starkly different. The past decade was the worst for the U.S. economy in modern times, a sharp reversal from a long period of prosperity that is leading economists and policymakers to fundamentally rethink the underpinnings of the nation's growth.

gotta love those companies and corps that outsource huh



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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 9:05:51 AM   
AnimusRex


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Status: offline 		Not to mention that the "prosperity" of the past decade or more, was financed largely by increasing credit; the middle class didn't experience their declining standard of living, because they gorged on easy credit and house equity.

Now that the bill has come due, they are experiencing the actual declining standard of living that was happening all along.

We often see statistics that show that Americans as a whole are more prosperous; but when teased apart, the data actually shows that the upper 1% is wildly more prosperous, while the remaining 99% are worse off.

The old saying is a verifiable fact- the rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer.

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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 9:11:31 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		it sure is, if shit was worth its weight in gold, poor people wouldnt have arseholes.
Yeah, its not classy ...truth seldom is.


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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 9:27:06 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		We bought our way out of two recessions during the previous administration with monetary policy, while continuing to cut revenue and increase spending, including substantial additions to structural deficit, from a new government bureaucracy that doesn't do anything really but suck money (Homeland Security--while the real problem of intercommunication among agencies belongs not to it but to the NSA), commitments to two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, tax cuts from income to estate taxes we couldn't afford, and the continued refusal to put in place adjustments to secure medicare/medicare and Social Security.

Now, with interest rates so low that we're forced to turn from monetary to fiscal policy to address a third recession coupled with the results of poor oversight of the banking and mortgage industries--mistakes we've already made before in the Saving and Loan debacle which also ended by bailing out the rich (including the Bushes), adding stimulus on top of already large problems long ignored, and this time, the bill is due, with nowhere left to hide. And the people who had nothing to do with this except believe the bullshit they were fed prior to election day are the ones who pay, and the ones without adequate financial cushions.

Jobs will come back midyear, as inventories are now so low, and cost cutting has been pursued as far as it can go and still stay in business. But it will be cautious and gradual. The drags on the economy the last decade put in place will still be there, not only for this decade, but also the next. We will have to work around them as best we can.




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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 9:38:31 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Jobs will come back midyear, as inventories are now so low, and cost cutting has been pursued as far as it can go and still stay in business. But it will be cautious and gradual. The drags on the economy the last decade put in place will still be there, not only for this decade, but also the next. We will have to work around them as best we can.



True, if we do not tip over into a deflationary spiral. The wise and the mighty are betting we can once again inflate our way out of this hole. However, both the fiscal and monetary handles seem to be broken, so maybe this time it really will be different, as it was in 1931. Hard call to make. Hope you are right about jobs, Music.

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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 10:10:38 AM   
Sanity


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Cost cutting isn't happening where it needs to most, which is at the level of the federal government. The projected deficits are going to kill us.

The old (traditional) media heavily favors the Obama administration and so they've fitted their news cameras with rose-colored filters but some of the facts are inescapable. They can spin them, but they can't spin them completely away.

One other problem is that there is another bubble bursting, and thats the commercial real estate bubble. Unemployment is also at historical highs and banks (which are under attack by the federal government) are tightening up their sphincters and refusing to lend, they are afraid of and bracing for what the current socialist revolution is ultimately going to bring.

Its a precarious situation, lets see what the future brings. If Obama moves to the right (fiscally speaking) things might turn out okay.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Jobs will come back midyear, as inventories are now so low, and cost cutting has been pursued as far as it can go and still stay in business. But it will be cautious and gradual. The drags on the economy the last decade put in place will still be there, not only for this decade, but also the next. We will have to work around them as best we can.



True, if we do not tip over into a deflationary spiral. The wise and the mighty are betting we can once again inflate our way out of this hole. However, both the fiscal and monetary handles seem to be broken, so maybe this time it really will be different, as it was in 1931. Hard call to make. Hope you are right about jobs, Music.


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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 10:15:41 AM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/01/AR2010010101196.html?hpid=topnews

For most of the past 70 years, the U.S. economy has grown at a steady clip, generating perpetually higher incomes and wealth for American households. But since 2000, the story is starkly different. The past decade was the worst for the U.S. economy in modern times, a sharp reversal from a long period of prosperity that is leading economists and policymakers to fundamentally rethink the underpinnings of the nation's growth.

gotta love those companies and corps that outsource huh




Hallelujah!  I love it when someone else starts a great job loss/unemployment thread.
yippie  kai yah!
yeeeeeeeeeeeee hawwwwwwwww
 
We sat back and allowed what was once a great country to become so bad off we now in debt
to Red China!
If you had told me people would set back and let this shit happen, and not rise up and riot in the streets, I would have told you, you were crazy.

Damn if I have not sat back and watched this shit happen.
I knew in the fucking 80's this shit would probably happen.
Be back later.
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


< Message edited by MzMia -- 1/2/2010 10:18:16 AM >

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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 10:22:40 AM   
Sanity


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Yes MzMia, we need to do more to encourage domestic businesses.

We need cheap energy, low corporate taxes, and a more business friendly atmosphere generally. Lately all our employers have been treated like pariahs and that has consequences.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Hallelujah!  I love it when someone else starts a great job loss/unemployment thread.
yippie  kai yah!
yeeeeeeeeeeeee hawwwwwwwww
 
We sat back and allowed what was once a great country to become so bad off we now in debt
to Red China!
If you had told me people would set back and let this shit happen, and not rise up and riot in the streets, I would have told you, you were crazy.

Damn if I have not sat back and watched this shit happen.
I knew in the fucking 80's this shit would probably happen.
Be back later.
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee



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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 10:33:40 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Here's the thing.

We HAVE, compared to the rest of the world, low corporate taxes, cheap energy, and so forth.

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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 10:41:57 AM   
Sanity


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Our corporate taxes are some of the highest in the world, and China burns coal, which you just dig up and burn. We have vast coal reserves but Obama just locked most of our coal up without breaking ground on a real alternative.

We need nuclear, or something. Our oil reserves are also off limits, our current energy policies are practically an economic suicide pact.

Now we're declaring our very breath a poison? The EPA is out of control. We cannot compete, it is literally no wonder that we are in the economic scrap heap of history.

No wonder at all.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Here's the thing.

We HAVE, compared to the rest of the world, low corporate taxes, cheap energy, and so forth.


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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 10:52:54 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		so all the non growth in the last ten years was obamas fault???? dammit with an attitude like that Sanity, you only have yourselves to blame
How many treaties have you refused to be part of because of the cost, ...fuck the pollution, fuck the dangers, and now look..... up shits creek without a paddle and it all falls into obamas canoe.
Yet americans are cutting out other americans jobs and livlihoods just to pay a foreigner far away ....yeah real true american companies too!!!!


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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 10:59:52 AM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Cost cutting isn't happening where it needs to most, which is at the level of the federal government. The projected deficits are going to kill us.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Here's the thing.
We HAVE, compared to the rest of the world, low corporate taxes, cheap energy, and so forth.



And we also have, compared to the rest of the world, massive military spending. In FY 2010, the gov't received about 2 Trillion in revenue; it spent about 900 Billion on Defense/ Homeland Security.

Meaning, almost 1/2 of every dollar you send to Washington is spent on some form of National Security.

On a totally unrelated note, some historians contend that Ronald Reagan defeated the Soviet Union by forcing them into an arms race which bankrupted them.

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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 11:07:45 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

We HAVE, compared to the rest of the world, low corporate taxes, cheap energy, and so forth.

I'm not sure what you have in mind by "the rest of the world" on this one, Tim.

US Leads the World in High Corporate Taxes
US Corporate Tax Rate 2nd Highest in Industrial World
US Corporate Tax Rates vs. The World (OECD)



K.

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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 11:26:10 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Cost cutting isn't happening where it needs to most, which is at the level of the federal government. The projected deficits are going to kill us.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Here's the thing.
We HAVE, compared to the rest of the world, low corporate taxes, cheap energy, and so forth.


And we also have, compared to the rest of the world, massive military spending. In FY 2010, the gov't received about 2 Trillion in revenue; it spent about 900 Billion on Defense/ Homeland Security.

Meaning, almost 1/2 of every dollar you send to Washington is spent on some form of National Security.

On a totally unrelated note, some historians contend that Ronald Reagan defeated the Soviet Union by forcing them into an arms race which bankrupted them.


Agreed. And massive is an understatement--we FAR exceed ALL other nations on military spending. It's time (long overdue, actually) to change our mindset to more realistic perceptions of the world, our place in it, and how to best address that reality (vs. nationalistic fantasy). This, despite the moral, militaristic, and economic policies of the Bush administration, is my largest beef. The overall mindset was a imperialistic fantasy that we just can't pull off--rich as we are (and we are, absolutely, still very, very rich), we just don't have the resources...let alone the capacity to deal with the consequences of those poorly planned positions.

Business-wise, people overlook that while some overshore factors are less expensive--labor, for example, in some cases--we also have far superior infrastructure that makes the use of our resources cheaper and easier--including labor--because for many industries, productivity is higher, lowering overall cost. Some of our manufacturing, to illustrate, has been lost to European countries with higher wages and costs. It's about productivity.

We're nowhere near bankruptcy or any of the other sky is falling scenarios floating around, as we do have massive reserves (and a wealth of natural resources), and fortunately, the wisdom not to squander those reserves over any given crisis du jour. But we are in a credit crunch nationally, and we do have to stop pretending paper equals resources. We've embraced market mechanisms so much that we mistake activity for production.

We excel in many markets globally, including exclusively for some products. Yet we have a running huge trade deficit, and people want to "fix" our problems by closing borders to trade, thus closing ourselves off from a large portion of our markets. We have to stop reacting, and learn to think and plan long term. We have to stop reacting and complaining about how things are and were and should be and could have been, and produce.

That's the very heart and soul of economics--value added production. Everything else is moving crap around. Everything else is excuses. Everything else is short term thinking, leaving long term problems to grow.

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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 11:32:52 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Thanks, Kirata.

I had in mind historically, as well as the significantly lower rates we pay for oil (high as they seem to us, including me).

Good point about the last decade. Also, however, it didn't help the economic situation.

Lowering corporate taxes can, in theory, stimulate economic activity, of course. Drawing a direct and immediate link makes a number of assumptions, however, about corporate behavior. And, businesses will always say taxes are too high. Why wouldn't they?

Tim

P.S. Speaking of higher rates we're paying for oil--and businesses too--this seems to have fallen under people's awareness. Although overall inflation may have been moderate, prices of several goods, including fruits and vegetables, one I especially notice, doubled and even tripled. Packaged goods hold less product than they did before. We are paying more for less. So are businesses.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/2/2010 11:35:25 AM >

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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 11:44:01 AM   
Sanity


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Good point, the value of the dollar is plummeting.

And while we do have vast natural resources, it practically takes an act of God to get permission to access to any of it, just name it. Doesn't matter what it is, even once you get past the seemingly endless bureaucratic approval process you're then hit with endless frivolous lawsuits.




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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 11:49:18 AM   
Kirata


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Status: offline 		The thing about corporate taxes is, they aren't taxes imposed on corporations. Every nickel of them gets passed along to the buyer in the price of the goods and services those businesses provide. In the final analysis, corporate taxes are nothing more or less than a hidden tax on virtually everything we purchase, even the most basic necessities of life, and as such their impact is greatest on those who can least afford them. The setting of corporate tax rates is simply a decision of how much blood you can draw from people who have little to spare without ending up killing them and destroying the economy.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/2/2010 11:55:26 AM >

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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 11:50:24 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


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quote:


P.S. Speaking of higher rates we're paying for oil--and businesses too--this seems to have fallen under people's awareness. Although overall inflation may have been moderate, prices of several goods, including fruits and vegetables, one I especially notice, doubled and even tripled. Packaged goods hold less product than they did before. We are paying more for less. So are businesses.


....and not just in the US either, Master. We here in Canada are seeing the same thing, not that it's a surprise since the cost of oil has risen all over.


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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 11:52:12 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		That's not necessarily true, Kirata--how much is passed on depends on elasticity of demand.

But I get your point.

Personally, I'd like to see a value-added tax in place of much of our current taxes. Then, we're taxing people with money to spend. Yes, it's also a drag on demand, but so are our current taxes.

Tim

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RE: Lost Decade for Jobs - 1/2/2010 11:54:51 AM   
Sanity


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I read the other day that with all taxes combined we pay the government an average of about 54 cents out of every dollar we earn. Thats local, state, federal, and all the hidden taxes.

Imagine what we could do with just a part of that back, what our economy could be like.


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