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ORIGINAL: mnottertail
maybe it is time to think along these lines again.
http://www.collarchat.com/m_1831230/mpage_1/key_plasma/tm.htm#1831426
I am dead set against nuclear since it would provide terrorists with ready made nuclear bombs in population centers, even if we quit fucking with folks today, we got a generation to live with terrorism at least, they would need some heavy security from air, land and sea before I would go nuke in the US.

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail
I am dead set against nuclear since it would provide terrorists with ready made nuclear bombs in population centers, even if we quit fucking with folks today, we got a generation to live with terrorism at least, they would need some heavy security from air, land and sea before I would go nuke in the US.

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ORIGINAL: Sanity


I meant, as opposed to a solar panel here or a small wind turbine there. From what I've seen its more efficient to produce large amounts of electricity (as required by heavy industry) in a centralized plant for a variety of reasons. Even wind and solar plants are centralized, but what I meant was more along the lines of nuclear or natural gas powered generation.

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

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ORIGINAL: Sanity



We'll still need centralized power generation facilities of some type though, I believe, especially if we're to be a competitive industrial power in the years to come.

....not trying for a pissing match here, but why do you believe that power generation needs to be centralised?
i appreciate you're talking in terms of a strong industrial base, but i am unsure as to why you reject decentralised power generation so quickly?

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Venezuela is offering lessons regarding the consequences a nation may face after falling behind in electrical generation, for anyone interested:

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None of these solutions (wind and solar) is competitive pricewise when we are talking production of power on large scales. Everywhere they are in place is only due to heavy subsidies from the government of the respective countries.

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In USA as most other countries power generation is a private matter and which private investor likes to put in billions of dollars with a return maybe in 15 - 20 years, when really you got the world’s finest scientist with government funding trying to screw up that process.

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The greens are overwhelmingly Liberals Democrats, rml. I think what dawg and Heretic are trying to tell you is, that's so darned

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ORIGINAL: submittous

Actually sanity the current system of centralized power generation results in a 35% loss of that power just in the distribution system. It would me much much more efficient to generate the power where it is going to be used than to continue with the current model.

Since it could be possible to do just that with small but high efficiency solar and wind unlike the need for large fossil burning generators which need large scale to approach high efficiency we now have an opportunity to change the power distribution system. But of course the entrenched invested money is fighting that tooth and nail, at all of ours expense.

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

I'd like to see your source on that, because I know thats entirely variable, because it depends on the circumstances. Regardless though, we could cut any power transmission losses dramatically by surrounding the power generation sites with industrial parks.

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ORIGINAL: philosophy
...well, i don't know about 35% either, but i think we can all agree that the further energy has to travel, once generated, the less efficient any system would be.
Have to say though, i'm not so sure of your plan to cut down distribution inefficiency by putting industry next to large power generators. Industry also needs people to make it work and what you're suggesting means either building power generators next to existing industry or moving populations (workforce) to new sites.
We seem to have a few real experts in the field here, so i'd like to ask a question. Can power generators (of whatever stripe) be made much smaller without losing a vast amount of efficiency? In other words, can a power generator be made small enough so that an individual factory can maintain its own power supply?

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ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Hospitals and people with medical issues also need a steady supply of power. Oops, its cloudy, so your dyalisis machine stops working....

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ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

Here's the easiest PARTIAL solution to implement in a short/medium timeframe in my opinion.

What we have a problem with is the lack of control at the source versus the consumption point. As in electricity supply is a guessing game at the generation end, thus overproduction is a requirement, and they have no control other than shutting down sections, or calling manufacturers and requesting they power down.

So, what you do is
1. All new Electric consuming devices rated above x watts. must have the ability to receive commands from the electricity supplier. Whether that be via ethernet, or more likely via the electric lines themselves. And outlets themselves should have the ability to completely cut off power as transformers eat power passively.

2. Customers, will have the ability to log on to www.electriccompany.com and set their preferences for their electric consumption. As in setting the parameters they will allow the the electric company to control.

Example: You sign and and will allow the electric company to control your AC to only cool to 80 degrees in periods of high electric usage. As in even if you set it to 75, you would select to cede control when electric generation is stressed to over ride your preference until the situation has passed.

Example: A vending machine will allow the electric company to order their machines to cool the sodas 4 degrees less, or not much at all if the vending history showed no use between certain hours or days.

Example: Your LCD computer monitor would go to a lower brightness level during peak times. IF you allowed the power company that control.

Example: Your Dryer, would not start unless you hit the bypass button, if you chose to allow them that control.

Example: Your hot water heater would delay heating the water to the max temp until the usage spike had past.

For this flexiblity, you are ceding to the power company you would get a discount.

Electronically, it would not be hard to create a system that reported rates in real time, and offered you the ability to take advantage of the lower rate periods, via programming, or alerts, such as your "smart" hot water heater fully kicks in when rates hit below x amount, or receiving an e-mail when rates for the next hour are pegged lower, so you can dry clothes.

Of course you don't have to participate, you'd just pay the rates whatever they might be, but those like me, would probably dry clothes at midnight.

You can get even more advanced really with cheap devices that would sense your presence in a room, or whatnot, they already have that to some degree. But something like a tv that simply asked after it's been on for 3 hours on the same channel if you are watching it, before turning itself off, would save money.

What that does is offer the power company to level out the power supply in a rational control programmable method, which helps us by reducing waste in the system, prevents blackouts, or industrial shutdown.

So really, I guess my point is there is no active marketplace in the electricity market from the provider to the consumer. There is no incentive on the consumers end to help level the usage curve. Once you have an active marketplace, then people start thinking of scheduling usage, and eventually start ultimately reducing usage, (TV asking to be shut off), (Dryer informing you it'd be cheaper to dry tomorrow, as humidity will be lower), Heating sensing when everyone is in bed, and dropping the temp a bit, and cutting heating almost entirely in rooms that show little history of use between x hour and y hour.

Problem with all that is manufactures would have to integrate a .50 cent piece of electronics. Power company would have to build a supremely secure system.


Anyway, we've applied very little of the internet's possible power to the grid. Some of the ideas above are not mine. But the advantages would be well worth it.

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ORIGINAL: luckydawg

An even easier method of achieving most of this, is to charge different amounts for electricity at different times of the day, sort of like they do with cell phone plans. Make it costs less to run the dryer at night, when there is less demand for cooling and commerce. People will rapidly adapt, with no need for extensive electronics and net architecture.