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An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 2:53:19 PM   
LadyAngelika


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I always like to preface my posts with saying that these are my half formed ideas that I present for you for debate. If I want to talk about these things with you, it's not only because I don't have all the answers, it's even more often because I don't have all the questions ;-) None of the following is intended to judge anyone, I assure you.

Observation n° 1

Over on FL, I'm part of a group called Positive Sapiosexuality. Here is a definition of Sapiosexuality provided by the group leaders:

Sapiosexuality - a behavior of becoming attracted to or aroused by intelligence and its use. From the Latin root sapien, wise or intelligent, and Latin sexualis, relating to the sexes.

Yup! Apparently some consider it a fetish! I've also been known to say that between brains and brawn, if I really have to chose, I'll take brains. But a fetish? I'm not sure.

I've always understood fetishes to be focused on objects or body parts, but apparently some people are lumping intelligence, personality attributes (humour) and learned behaviours (chivalry) into the mix. I often joke around that intimacy is a fetish, as I can't achieve orgasm without it. I've always considered that playing with the concept of fetishes.

You may agree or disagree with this but before tackling that, consider observation n° 2.

Observation n° 2

I've been known to raise a level of concern when it comes to what I call the over-fetishization of something and this has been known to stir debate. But a certain degree of fetish is fine, even fun, as long as we don't lose track of the human aspect (this is a value judgement, I know, and I openly admit I have a bias).

Here in lies the crux. I've heard people say they have a big breast fetish, that they want a man with a six-pack or that they are an "ass man". Some love feet, shoes, rubber, rope, etc. While I think most think "meh, to each their own", I have perceived an underlying feeling of hostility by some about what it is ok to have a preference for, or fetishize.

So I come back to intelligence. It seems perfectly socially acceptable for a man to say "I only date intelligent woman". It is however most usually socially unacceptable for a man to say "I only date thin women". Both however are a preference. Moreover, for a woman with a learning disability, to become intelligent will be difficult. Equally, for a woman with weight issues, to become thin will be difficult. Yes, the same can be said about a man and I know that women are just as likely to make these statements. I will however say that men get often vilified when they say they prefer thin women, and yet when done respectfully, are simply stating their preference.

Sidenote: Why we have such a body type or intelligence can bring on the nature vs. nurture debate. I believe that this is however irrelevant to this point as I'll suggest that regardless of why, the path of who we are going to become in regards to our level of intelligence and our body type is set during childhood. This is why societies are so concerned with obese children and the state of schools. As we enter adulthood, we have followed a course for which modification would require a great deal of effort. What I'm proposing is that some of the fundamental aspects of who we are, that is level of intelligence, body type are things that we inherit from childhood and other things like body proportions, skin colour, texture, hair density and eye colour are something we inherit genetically and most of these are difficult (but not impossible) to change.

A woman can choose to invest in a boob job, or a man into a penis extension, either can pay a nutritionist and/or personal trainer, a woman gets coloured contacts, a man gets hair plugs, some can advance their schooling and get higher education... We can all make "self-improvements" (I use that term very lightly as I don't want to put a judgement value as the one doing this is convinced it's an improvement for them).

Questions for reflection

So here are two questions that flow out of the above observations, which I'm sure will stir the pot and likely to ruffle some feathers, but hey, you guys seem to like that kind of stuff.

In the realm of kink, are we really over fetishizing just about anything by calling intelligence a fetish?

Whether we call it a fetish or a preference, why do we consider certain some more shallow than others? Is that fair?

What other questions do these observations raise?

Enjoy and play nice!! ;-)

- LA

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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:04:14 PM   
hardbodysub


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If this turns you on, then it must be a fetish.

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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:06:06 PM   
naughtysubK


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Interesting questions. Wouldn't the existence of an intelligence fetish mean that the intelligent person would have to be demonstrating their intelligence for the person with the fetish to be turned on? And that probably wasn't worded very well. I think I have read a definition of fetish that stats that the object of the fetish has to be present for the fetishist to get turned on.

My Dom is very intelligent. I have some not really smart men in my past and I think it is wonderful that he knows how to use his mind. But I would call it a preference rather than a fetish

Regarding other preferences that may not really be socially acceptable. I am a heavier woman and have no issues with someone who politely states that they are interested in finding someone who is thin. But if I see a profile that says "NO FAT CHICKS" in large font, it irritates me a little. Also irritating are the random unsolicited cmails telling me that I am too fat.


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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:10:51 PM   
windchymes


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I agree that the term "fetish" is overused and overused incorrectly.  Back in the "old" days, a fetish was something non-sexual that someone was sexually attracted to, and could not achieve sexual arousal without that something present, like shoes, or bare feet, or rubber clothes. 

Nowadays, it seems like anything that arouses us is our "fetish", even if it's supposed to arouse us....some men claim to have a "breast fetish" or an "ass fetish" or even blowjob fetishes

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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:13:07 PM   
Level


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Hmm, wonder who has the BJ one..

Intellect is not a fetish, to me, but the lack of one doesn't help create attraction. And I don't just mean book smarts, but having sense.


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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:16:53 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

I agree that the term "fetish" is overused and overused incorrectly. Back in the "old" days, a fetish was something non-sexual that someone was sexually attracted to, and could not achieve sexual arousal without that something present, like shoes, or bare feet, or rubber clothes.


Ok, so let me play the devil's advocate for a moment. Intelligence is something non-sexual. When a man talks intelligently, I can get sexually aroused. You have no idea how many of my university professors I've wanted to jump over the last 18 years ;-) And on the flip side, I'll admit I'm totally shallow, but if a guy isn't smart, I can't be aroused.

So is it a fetish for me then? Just asking.

- LA

Edited to changed do to can as it's not any smart man who can get me hot. And this can happen with certain women too.


< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 1/3/2010 3:19:33 PM >


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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:20:36 PM   
windchymes


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Intelligence is something I'm attracted to, something I prefer or even require in a partner.  But I don't want to jump the bones of every scholar or sage that comes along, he still has to appeal to me on other levels (no pun intended, Level!  ) before I start jumping. 

For that reason, I say no, it's not a fetish.  YMMV :)

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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:24:47 PM   
LadyPact


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In the realm of kink, are we really over fetishizing just about anything by calling intelligence a fetish?

In My opinion, people use the word 'fetish' without applying it correctly to definition.  Take, for example, a term such as shoe fetish.  Granted, there are folks out there who honestly have the fetish related to shoes.  Another person uses the term to joke off their liking of buying shoes compulsively. 

Whether we call it a fetish or a preference, why do we consider certain some more shallow than others? Is that fair?

One of the things that came to mind when I was reading your original, was that you are using the term intelligence.  That in itself can have various applications.  It can mean a certain level of IQ.  It can be applied to a particular education level that someone has achieved.  It can mean someone who just has an unusually high level of common sense.  Sure, I'm positive that there are people on the planet that don't have some version of intelligence to them.  At the same time, I think a good number of people have at least one type of intelligence going for them.  (It works in reverse, too.  One of the most highly educated men that I ever met was seriously lacking in common sense.)



I tend not to criticize in any area when it comes to preferences of any type when it comes to search criteria.  I don't think of them in the context of more or less shallow.  They are preferences for whatever reason and I don't have to adhere to them when they come from someone else.  If they are helpful to that person to help obtain higher compatibility, more power to them.


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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:24:55 PM   
SirJohnMandevill


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Characterizing intelligence as a "fetish" chips away at our humanity, IMO.

Jeez, we already sort ourselves into Masters, Mistresses, submissives, switches and I'm sure other sub-labels. Intelligence is who we are as a person, not something to be lowered to the level of a sexual turn-on. Some may have more of it, some less -- and much depends on whom you ask -- and varying levels attract different people. But I really think that attraction is on a different level than our various fetishes.

Sounds kinda trite now that I reread it, and I'm not sure I'm getting my point across, but I'll stick with what I wrote.

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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:29:37 PM   
windchymes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

I agree that the term "fetish" is overused and overused incorrectly. Back in the "old" days, a fetish was something non-sexual that someone was sexually attracted to, and could not achieve sexual arousal without that something present, like shoes, or bare feet, or rubber clothes.


Ok, so let me play the devil's advocate for a moment. Intelligence is something non-sexual. When a man talks intelligently, I can get sexually aroused. You have no idea how many of my university professors I've wanted to jump over the last 18 years ;-) And on the flip side, I'll admit I'm totally shallow, but if a guy isn't smart, I can't be aroused.

So is it a fetish for me then? Just asking.

- LA

Edited to changed do to can as it's not any smart man who can get me hot. And this can happen with certain women too.



I made my last post before reading yours, LadyA :)  and I think we were on the same train of thought.....

OK, hypothetical situation......if the professor started acting like a total jerk, was rude, had bad breath, then would that cancel out the attraction of the intelligence?  I know it would for me.  But on the other hand, if a guy was attractive physically, was kind and polite, and, hell, let's be real shallow here, had a real fat wallet with lots of cash in it that he wanted to spend on ME......it's still really unlikely that I'm going to be sexually aroused by him if he's got just an average or below IQ. 

So......does THAT make it a fetish?  I'm starting to think it might be one of those gray areas, lol.

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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:30:58 PM   
EbonyWood


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Thin line between preference and fetish for some.
 
There are a couple of sapiosexuality profiles here that I've seen.
 
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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:31:10 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

In the realm of kink, are we really over fetishizing just about anything by calling intelligence a fetish?


Yes and no.  In the clinical sense of the word, most of what most of us call "fetish" isn't.  Most of us can and do have perfectly satisfying "vanilla" sex, without the inclusion of inanimate objects or rituals.  However, in the more spiritual sense of the word, a fetish is a thing that has deep meaning and power.  It's in this way that I think many of us use the term.
 
That being said, I do think there are those of us who have an intelligence fetish in the clinical sense.  I know I do.  I genuinely cannot become aroused by a partner who lacks intelligence.  Likewise, I have been known to become aroused by someone I wouldn't normally find attractive when that person demonstrated superior intelligence.  This is not to say the person must be well-educated.  My husband is not nearly as educated as I am, but he has been invited to join MENSA (he declined).  When I first met him, I didn't consider him attractive at all but, as I get to know him and realized how intelligent he is, I became more attracted to him.  Now, one could chalk this up to other types of compatibility and have a valid argument.  However, I feel certain that without his intelligence, we would not have sustained our 7+ year relationship.

quote:

Whether we call it a fetish or a preference, why do we consider certain some more shallow than others? Is that fair?


- LA


Barring an injury to the brain, intelligence is based almost entirely on genetics.  A learning disability doesn't affect intelligence, only how information is processed.  A woman with dyslexia may have trouble learning to read, but that doesn't mean she's not intelligent.  She can learn to read with the proper educational style.  New York Times bestselling author Laurell K. Hamilton is proof of this. 

However, a person with a developmental disability/mental retardatioin can't get smarter, no matter how much education he or she gets.  An overweight person, on the other hand, can get thinner.  It may require some extreme measures, such as gastric bypass or going on a reality show like The Biggest Loser, but it can be done.  There is no genetic reason it can't.  No one faults the developmentally disabled for not being smarter, but they do fault the fat person for not being thinner.  IMO, calling someone shallow who prefers a fit partner over an overweight one is backlash by insecure people who are unwilling, for whatever reason, to take the necessary steps to change their appearance. 

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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:31:23 PM   
DomImus


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In the realm of kink, are we really over fetishizing just about anything by calling intelligence a fetish?

If it causes arousal or sexual stimulation then I suppose it would qualify as a fetish. I've always considered intelligence to be the ability to reason. That would fly in the face of groups like Mensa. Once we qualify intelligence as a fetish then we must define and agree upon what intelligence really is. Good luck with that one.

Whether we call it a fetish or a preference, why do we consider certain some more shallow than others? Is that fair?

I don't recognize the whole 'shallow' argument. Using the term is nothing more than an empty insult. If someone likes what they like or dislikes what they dislike that is their business. Calling them shallow reflects more on the person making the comment than on the person the comment is directed at, in my opinion.




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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:32:37 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

I agree that the term "fetish" is overused and overused incorrectly. Back in the "old" days, a fetish was something non-sexual that someone was sexually attracted to, and could not achieve sexual arousal without that something present, like shoes, or bare feet, or rubber clothes.


Ok, so let me play the devil's advocate for a moment. Intelligence is something non-sexual. When a man talks intelligently, I can get sexually aroused. You have no idea how many of my university professors I've wanted to jump over the last 18 years ;-) And on the flip side, I'll admit I'm totally shallow, but if a guy isn't smart, I can't be aroused.

So is it a fetish for me then? Just asking.

- LA

Edited to changed do to can as it's not any smart man who can get me hot. And this can happen with certain women too.



I made my last post before reading yours, LadyA :)  and I think we were on the same train of thought.....

OK, hypothetical situation......if the professor started acting like a total jerk, was rude, had bad breath, then would that cancel out the attraction of the intelligence?  I know it would for me.  But on the other hand, if a guy was attractive physically, was kind and polite, and, hell, let's be real shallow here, had a real fat wallet with lots of cash in it that he wanted to spend on ME......it's still really unlikely that I'm going to be sexually aroused by him if he's got just an average or below IQ. 

So......does THAT make it a fetish?  I'm starting to think it might be one of those gray areas, lol.


Well even a man with a foot fetish could get turned off by toe jam ;-)

- LA

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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:36:56 PM   
windchymes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

One of the things that came to mind when I was reading your original, was that you are using the term intelligence.  That in itself can have various applications.  It can mean a certain level of IQ.  It can be applied to a particular education level that someone has achieved.  It can mean someone who just has an unusually high level of common sense.  Sure, I'm positive that there are people on the planet that don't have some version of intelligence to them.  At the same time, I think a good number of people have at least one type of intelligence going for them.  (It works in reverse, too.  One of the most highly educated men that I ever met was seriously lacking in common sense.)



This is a really good point.  There definitely are different kinds of intelligence.  There are men that I consider having  brilliant minds who have a high school, Associate or Bachelor's degree level of education.  And I know Masters Degrees and Phd's who don't have a lick of common sense or ability to do a job.  I'm one of the former, and I work with a bunch of the latter, and they drive me out of my freaking mind on a daily basis.  I'm certainly not going to be attracted to any of them sexually......unless they'd consent to extreme knife or breath play.......really extreme.....hehhehhehhehhehhehheh

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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:39:42 PM   
windchymes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


Well even a man with a foot fetish could get turned off by toe jam ;-)

- LA


Touche' 

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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:43:18 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
Barring an injury to the brain, intelligence is based almost entirely on genetics.  A learning disability doesn't affect intelligence, only how information is processed.  A woman with dyslexia may have trouble learning to read, but that doesn't mean she's not intelligent.  She can learn to read with the proper educational style.  New York Times bestselling author Laurell K. Hamilton is proof of this. 

However, a person with a developmental disability/mental retardatioin can't get smarter, no matter how much education he or she gets.  An overweight person, on the other hand, can get thinner.  It may require some extreme measures, such as gastric bypass or going on a reality show like The Biggest Loser, but it can be done.  There is no genetic reason it can't.  No one faults the developmentally disabled for not being smarter, but they do fault the fat person for not being thinner.  IMO, calling someone shallow who prefers a fit partner over an overweight one is backlash by insecure people who are unwilling, for whatever reason, to take the necessary steps to change their appearance. 


I'm not completely convinced by what you wrote, but it's ok. I don't think it contradicts the following:

I've been in school since I was 5. I'm 37 now. I've rarely had to study for tests. I can right essays the night before. When I don't apply myself I get mid-80s when I apply myself, I get mid-90s. Genetically (perhaps as you suggested) I have easy with academics which is, as LadyPact points out, one of the many ways we define intelligence.

I have a friend who through grade school, high school, undergrad busted her butt to get an 80. She really had to put so much effort into it. She isn't a dumb girl, by any means, but she obviously doesn't understand things with the kind of ease that I do. Now learning disability might have been a stretch, but there are differently different levels of learners and some learn more quickly and with more ease than others. I could argue the nurture part and tell you that my mom had me reciting my alphabet before the age of 2 - she was one of those "stimulate the learning early" type of moms.

That said, this same girl has a killer body. She maintains it naturally and at 37 never really had to watch what goes into her mouth. I hate the bitch! (No I really love her). In order to maintain a healthy weight, I must put in a whole lot of effort. Is this genetics? Oh sure! It is also as much nurture as is is nature.

So I see somethings come naturally and somethings come with effort. That being said, it is more shallow to emphasize one more than the other.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 1/3/2010 3:45:54 PM >


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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:49:41 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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I look at this differently in respect to what the actual roots of the term fetish meant before it was claimed by the community as a positive; in terms of being sexually obsessed with something.

I don't think people are sexually attracted to intelligence thus it isn't a fetish. If however they want to have sex with someone just because they perceive them as intelligent then it is I suppose.

The problem with calling intelligence a fetish is that intelligence is often touted as being more meaningful than base sexual desires. So for example: do you want to talk with someone intelligent or do you want to have sex with them, if you just want to have sex with them then what great purpose does their intelligence give you in that respect? It doesn't heighten the sexual peak due to sexual association such as an inanimate object might do to someone with a fetish for that object.

I probably can't understand this topic because I don't use the world fetish to describe likes, I use it to describe sexual obsessions. Probably most people are guilty of using the word in a way it was never intended this is all and why it gets confusing.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 1/3/2010 3:55:50 PM >


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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:55:33 PM   
wisdomtogive


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LadyAngelika, thank you so much for bringing this topic to the boards. I never considered intelligence as a fetish, but thinking back on my life, i do physically get turned on by listening to an intelligent conversation, as well as being a part. In reality it is a must for me, because I have noticed without it, nothing else gets me going.

I never consider myself intelligent, and as a child was diagnosed as a slow learner. Not until I went through a battery of tests was I told that I had a very high IQ. Even with that being said, I still considered myself stupid, yet the men who stayed in my life were very intelligent. For a long time, I just felt like a sponge soaking up their brain. I always had a saying I rather be fucking a brain the the man. I live for knowledge, and get turned on by learning. I tend to learn better through oral exchange, so I just run around sucking up brains. One of my favorite tv shows that was on PBS a couple decades ago was called "The Meeting of the Minds", well that to me would been comparable to men who have big breast fetishes. I just drolled the whole time. I live to go to libraries, musuems and always wanted to transport myself back to the Alexandria Library...k, see i go over board:). I have to say for me it is a fetish.

Again thank you for bringing this topic up and now I feel great........i learned something:)

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RE: An Intelligence Fetish? Really? And is it shallow? - 1/3/2010 3:56:31 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
The problem with calling intelligence a fetish is that intelligence is often touted as being more meaningful than base sexual desires.


Yay! You opened up the can of worms I was hoping someone would!

This is a value judgement. I have put more effort into my education than in my fitness plan. I'm cute, but I'll most likely cater more to the man that wants a smart woman than the one who wants a bikini model. (And don't we hate the ones who are both! ;-)

But in saying that, I wonder if it isn't a form of value judement that is being placed on what we consider to be more noble.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 1/3/2010 4:03:03 PM >


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