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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 1:32:57 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

We should guard every single embassy as if it were carrying the second coming of Christ.

I would want nothing more than to have the proud realization that my loved ones were killed guarding the Yemen Embassy.

Red, white and blue!!! These motherfucking colors don't run....Freedom isn't free.

God Bless the Yemen embassy!!!




Hey Buckwheat, most of our embasseys serve only as a conduit for foreign aid and more mindless immigration from third world countries.
Nice to see you back! Now stay on the meds this time.

Fuck's sake, popeye: have you ever even tried to get a tourist visa (never mind a green card) from a US embassy? Small wonder some idiot's angry enough to want to blow one up.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 1:37:55 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		worse than the DMV, is it?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 1:43:50 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		I've never dealt with the American DMV, so I'm not sure how that compares, but it isn't good, put it that way. You could have more fun having a root canal done.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 1:52:22 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

After 9/11, a Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations) joined up with the US 5th Fleet, heading to Pakistan to evacuate up to 9000 Americans in Pakistan, including all the embassy personnel, since it was thought that anti-American groups in Pakistan would go attack Americans if we hammered Afghanistan.

Would that have been surrender?
Unplayed out "what ifs..." are rarely productive to the debate, but I'll play.

I think Dunkirk is referenced historically as the "Glorious Defeat"; however that's only the case as a result of the eventual victory. Was there, or is there, a plan for eventual victory in the event the referenced evacuation had taken place?

quote:

There are about 1000 Marines at 148 posts ("detachments"), according to Wiki. Would you rather wait for evacuation after an attack or bombing's already taken place?
Neither. The current actions are the direct result of a threat. If the US lacks sufficient resources to address a threat and redeploy necessary personal and resources to secure that real estate than it should no longer be considered a 'global power'. Removing non-essential personal and putting a visible presence on the grounds of the compound would have been my decision; illustrating the commitment of the US to stand against this "isolated extremist" threat. Doing so would not be seen as 'aggressive' and instead serve to provide confidence to those apparently deeper isolated, non extremist followers of Islam who may be living in Yemen.

Speaking of "what if...."; what if Mr Abdulmutallab was being considered as member of the enemy at war with us instead of a disgruntled airline passenger removed after creating a 'disturbance' now under the protection of his lawyer and a Constitution for a sovereign nation he hopes to destroy. You think maybe then we'd know a hell of a lot more regarding any specific threats in Yemen, and/or the location, and plans, of other "isolated extremists"? Or would that knowledge, perhaps preventing further "isolated extremist" incidents come at too high a cost of political correctness?

(in reply to thornhappy)
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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 1:52:43 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

The same one I have for most things - enforce the law.


That is a pretty two faced position dont you think. Why must everyone else obey the law but Merc is exempt?


T.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 1:53:45 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Under threat, the United States policy of leaving is intelligent, just like Reagan did taking the Marines out of Lebanon. No point in needlessly risking peoples lives making them live and work with crazy people.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 1:54:33 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
It worked perfectly in Iran 30 years ago, didn't it? It took less than a year and a half to get all the diplomats and secretaries back, and if I recall correctly, they all survived. So what's the big deal?


The results of that surrender were a "big deal" on a couple of fronts.


I was being a little sarcastic there. The point i was making is, in a somewhat similar historical example, an American president chose to leave an embassy open and dozens of American citizens were kidnapped and held hostage for a year and a half. Obviously there are a lot of differences between the two situations, and I'm not suggesting our embassy in Yemen is in imminent danger of being overrun. But a president has to make choices about whether a certain course of action is worth the price, not only to our own citizens but to the citizens of other countries. 30 years ago, Carter and his people decided that it was better to let the embassy be taken than to kill hundreds of Iranian citizens defending it. I didn't agree with that choice then, and I don't agree with it in retrospect - i believe his choices should have been between closing the embassy or defending it to the death. Obama, faced with a roughly similar choice, has apparently opted for closing the embassy. I have some questions about whether it was the right choice, but  had he chosen to defend it at all costs, I'd have had questions about that too. But none of those questions are strong enough that I feel qualified in automatically condemning whatever decision he makes simply because he''s the one who made it, which is what it looks to me like you are doing.

I'm not sure why I'm even debating this, because honestly, I'm convinced that no matter what  Obama did you'd be  criticizing it and holding it up as an example of why he's an incompetent failure. Had he left the embassy open and it had been attacked, you'd be criticizing him for naively underestimating the threat of terrorism. Had he beefed up security and the guards had fought off a terrorist attack, I have little doubt you'd be criticizing him for the unnecessary bloodshed, as with the Somali pirate incident. You're all for him defending the embassy at all costs now, but if we had done that, and some innocent Yemeni child a half mile away had been killed be a stray round, I would expect you to be in  here calling  Obama a butcher. We get it, everything Obama does is wrong, every time, he's a total failure, etc. Honestly, one of these days i expect to come in here and see a thread criticizing him for getting out of bed this morning. After a while, the point just gets lost, don't you think?


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 1:57:03 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		That does raise an interesting point, Brain. Would the OP still see this as outrageous cowardice if there was a President they liked in power, or would it be (say) refusing to engage in diplomacy with a government sympathetic to terrorists? That story might work pretty well in Pakistan as well.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 1:59:40 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

I think Dunkirk is referenced historically as the "Glorious Defeat"; however that's only the case as a result of the eventual victory. Was there, or is there, a plan for eventual victory in the event the referenced evacuation had taken place?


From time to time you remind us of how proud you are that you learned nothing in college. The above statement only verifies your candor.

T.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 2:03:31 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Under threat, the United States policy of leaving is intelligent,
Why isn't that "intelligent" policy being implemented in Iraq and Afghanistan?

quote:

No point in needlessly risking peoples lives making them live and work with crazy people.
The people on the airliner heading to Detroit didn't get to make the informed consent choice like the people employed at the Yemen embassy. However as a result of that attack succeeding, minimally to impact air travel, but more impacting as it contributed to getting the Yemen Embassy closed, it will inspire others to try to achieve the same.

Was the action an intelligent decision to make the US more secure, or will it provide an intelligent argument for more "isolated extremists" to think they too can succeed?

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 2:09:23 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Was the action an intelligent decision to make the US more secure, or will it provide an intelligent argument for more "isolated extremists" to think they too can succeed?

Is Spain now being run by a jihadist theocracy under sharia law? I remember a lot of Americans describing the Spanish withdrawal from Bush's Iraqi clusterfuck after the bombing there as a repulsive show of cowardice that would lead to a rash of further terrorist attacks and probably the fall of the Spanish government. It didn't.
The point about Iraq and Afghanistan is a good one, though, as you're achieving fuck all in either country besides attracting the attention of every wanker in the middle east who thinks that it's still the fourteenth century and Allah wants all of the franks dead.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 2:13:22 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Under threat, the United States policy of leaving is intelligent,


Why isn't that "intelligent" policy being implemented in Iraq and Afghanistan?




Ja, I wonder that bit myself.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 2:17:32 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

I think Dunkirk is referenced historically as the "Glorious Defeat"; however that's only the case as a result of the eventual victory. Was there, or is there, a plan for eventual victory in the event the referenced evacuation had taken place?


From time to time you remind us of how proud you are that you learned nothing in college. The above statement only verifies your candor.

T.

Sorry if my lack of learning in college put you in a position you are unable to respond with a contrary position and instead was a weak attempt at insult. Come now-you have to be able to do better than that against such a weak point!

Didn't like the Dunkirk reference? I think I read an account calling it "Retreat for Victory"; prefer that better? Redeploying to attack is a common strategy, is that your expectation for Yemen?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
Under threat, the United States policy of leaving is intelligent, just like Reagan did taking the Marines out of Lebanon. No point in needlessly risking peoples lives making them live and work with crazy people.
I agree with citizens leaving a building when there is a bomb threat, but that belief assumes that the appropriate authorities using their best efforts will go into the building if not to find out no bomb was present and/or diffuse the bomb if there is one. This action in Yemen goes against that idea. Comparatively it would be as if in this case we preemptively blow up the US Yemen embassy to prevent the opportunity for any "isolated extremists" to do so.

You and those who use similar comparative arguments serve to make my ultimate point that there is no difference in the name of the political party or person who has power in the US. Feel free to continue to do so.

Any comparison to prior failed practices only points to the current failures. Do go on...


< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 1/4/2010 2:41:02 PM >

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 2:29:45 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I can sorta agree here as well Merc, depending......if the idea is to make us safe from terrorism, we quit fucking around in the internal affairs of other countries we got a shot at that in about 50 years or so, anything is failed policy until the current crop of terrorists dies out and if we dont create more of em. If the idea is to insure these folks dont get killed, it is not a failed policy if they don't get killed.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 2:46:02 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

there is no sovereignty in international law...


Huh?

Black's Law Dictionary, 4th Ed., 425, 426

Court:

INTERNATIONAL LAW

The person and suite of the sovereign; the place where the
sovereign sojourns with his regal retinue, wherever that may be.
....



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 2:54:26 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		Merc...hows it going man?

The problem I have with all this is that the etymology and root meaning of terror is "frighten".

So we are on a war against frightening.

Next its amazing who is all an extremist and a terrorist now days.







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/4/2010 2:55:12 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 2:58:00 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

there is no sovereignty in international law...


Huh?

Black's Law Dictionary, 4th Ed., 425, 426

Court:

INTERNATIONAL LAW

The person and suite of the sovereign; the place where the
sovereign sojourns with his regal retinue, wherever that may be.
....





Wake the fuck up and read it in (and leave it in) context. There is none in terms of embassies and missions and whatnot as is commonly supposed.

Any dumbass can clip a sentence and paste a fucking dictionary entry about royalty. Don't be one of those dumbasses.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 3:08:55 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

there is no sovereignty in international law...


Huh?

Black's Law Dictionary, 4th Ed., 425, 426

Court:

INTERNATIONAL LAW

The person and suite of the sovereign; the place where the
sovereign sojourns with his regal retinue, wherever that may be.
....





Wake the fuck up and read it in (and leave it in) context. There is none in terms of embassies and missions and whatnot as is commonly supposed.

Any dumbass can clip a sentence and paste a fucking dictionary entry about royalty. Don't be one of those dumbasses.

Ron


yeh ok Ron but that is not what you said.

Your statement as I quoted is a stand alone statement, you used no qualifiers or dis qualifiers therefore is properly read it as quoted.
sorry

Here:

quote:

there is no sovereignty in international law...
statement and now Ron will justify statement with:
here is a case cut out with Japan but it is the precedent worldwide, we enjoy some special privileges at our missions and embassies and whatnot but.........they are not guarenteed:


stated to mean what you claim would be written like:   we enjoy some special privileges at our missions and embassies and whatnot but.........they are not guarentee because they are not sovereign under international law

or something to that effect.  

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/4/2010 3:16:00 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 3:13:57 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

I think Dunkirk is referenced historically as the "Glorious Defeat"; however that's only the case as a result of the eventual victory. Was there, or is there, a plan for eventual victory in the event the referenced evacuation had taken place?

From time to time you remind us of how proud you are that you learned nothing in college. The above statement only verifies your candor.

T.
Sorry if my lack of learning in college put you in a position you are unable to respond with a contrary position and instead was a weak attempt at insult. Come now-you have to be able to do better than that against such a weak point!

Didn't like the Dunkirk reference? I think I read an account calling it "Retreat for Victory"; prefer that better? Redeploying to attack is a common strategy, is that your expectation for Yemen?


I am sorry you misunderstood my reference.
You have posted numerous times that you were quite proud that you learned nothing in college.
Your post, that I cited, made an historical reference. If you were acquainted with the actual historical reality that you cited, you would have known that it did not support your point nor was it even related.
As to your ranting about an embassy closure and all the attendant saber rattling I have noticed that those most interested in a military solution are not the least interested in being part of that military solution.
This is an observation by one who has, on numerous occasions, been part of that "military solution".

T.






(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 3:18:52 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

there is no sovereignty in international law...


yeh ok Ron but that is not what you said.
 


So now by the same device you use, I can say you are claiming that I did not say what I just quoted myself saying. Context is immaterial.

You are not good at semantic arguements buddy, english being a second language for you, don't try to make them you will only further weaken your case.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 40
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